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Re: [textualcriticism] Re: Freer Gospels (W 032)

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  • Peter M. Head
    ... Yes this is a fantastic discovery. ... Peter M. Head, PhD Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament Tyndale House 36 Selwyn Gardens Cambridge CB3
    Message 1 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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      >
      >Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
      >discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
      >(the Gospel mss)?
      >
      >http://www.washington-codex.org/woodard_kodex_article_1.htm
      >
      >Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
      >W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
      >beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
      >investigation and proper explanation.

      Yes this is a fantastic discovery.


      >

      Peter M. Head, PhD
      Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
      Tyndale House
      36 Selwyn Gardens
      Cambridge CB3 9BA
      01223 566601
    • Peter M. Head
      OED: Fantastic: Existing only in imagination; proceeding merely from imagination; fabulous, imaginary, unreal (obs.). b. In mod. use, of alleged reasons,
      Message 2 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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        OED: Fantastic:


        Existing only in imagination; proceeding merely from imagination;
        fabulous, imaginary, unreal (obs.). b. In mod. use, of alleged
        reasons, fears, etc.: Perversely or irrationally imagined.





        Peter M. Head, PhD
        Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
        Tyndale House
        36 Selwyn Gardens
        Cambridge CB3 9BA
        01223 566601
      • George F Somsel
        It WOULD BE fantastic. if true. The question is whether these claims can be independently verified by others. When I encounter rather extreme claims, it
        Message 3 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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          It WOULD BE fantastic. if true.  The question is whether these claims can be independently verified by others.  When I encounter rather extreme claims, it tends to taint my ablity to put much credence in the rest of what is said therein.  I would say that it is first necessary for a recognized scholar to look at the evidence and either confirm or debunk these claims.
           
          ___________

          "Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...> wrote:

          >
          >Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
          >discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
          >(the Gospel mss)?
          >
          >http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm
          >
          >Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
          >W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
          >beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
          >investigation and proper explanation.

          Yes this is a fantastic discovery.

          >

          Peter M. Head, PhD
          Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
          Tyndale House
          36 Selwyn Gardens
          Cambridge CB3 9BA
          01223 566601




          george
          gfsomsel
          _________

          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
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        • Peter Williams
          It s a fantastic phantasm. ... Peter Williams Senior Lecturer in New Testament Deputy Head of School of Divinity, History and Philosophy University of Aberdeen
          Message 4 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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            It's a fantastic phantasm.

            George:

            >It WOULD BE fantastic. if true.
            >
            >"Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...> wrote:
            >>
            >>Yes this is a fantastic discovery.


            ------------
            Peter Williams
            Senior Lecturer in New Testament
            Deputy Head of School of Divinity, History and Philosophy
            University of Aberdeen
            p.j.williams@...
          • George F Somsel
            That is, of course, one use of the term -- I believe the original meaning. Since, however, words do have various meanings, I m glad that you clarified your
            Message 5 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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              That is, of course, one use of the term -- I believe the original meaning.  Since, however, words do have various meanings, I'm glad that you clarified your meaning.  I would tend to think that this is fantastic in the original sense of the term.  I would nevertheless like to know just what it is he's looking at in regard to the "seals", etc.  [Always be suspicious in a field such as this when someone begins by noting that no previous scholar ever saw 'X.'  Usually no other scholar saw it because it isn't there.  Interpreting a known item in a different fashion is an entirely different matter.
               
              ______________


              "Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...> wrote:
              OED: Fantastic:

              Existing only in imagination; proceeding merely from imagination;
              fabulous, imaginary, unreal (obs.). b. In mod. use, of alleged
              reasons, fears, etc.: Perversely or irrationally imagined.

              Peter M. Head, PhD
              Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
              Tyndale House
              36 Selwyn Gardens
              Cambridge CB3 9BA
              01223 566601




              george
              gfsomsel
              _________

              __________________________________________________
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            • William Warren
              The web site looks like an attempt to push an agenda more than a place where evidence would be presented that would be reliable (as seen in the diatribe
              Message 6 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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                The web site looks like an attempt to push an agenda more than a place where evidence would be presented that would be reliable (as seen in the diatribe against a school in Oklahoma).  While the claim may need to be examined, I would think a more adequate answer could be found in the presentations at SBL on Codex W this November, where several studies of the ms. are being presented.


                paz, 


                Bill Warren

                Director of the Center for New Testament Textual Studies

                Landrum P. Leavell, II, Professor of New Testament and Greek

                New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary



                On Jun 7, 2006, at 4:02 AM, mr.scrivener wrote:

                --------------------
                Dear Mr. Brown:

                In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing transcriptions
                of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available on
                disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                wondering how your projects are coming along.

                ----------------------
                Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
                discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
                (the Gospel mss)?

                http://www.washington-codex.org/woodard_kodex_article_1.htm

                Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
                W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                investigation and proper explanation.

                Any ideas?

                Curiosity is killing me here...
                Eeyore

                ------------------------------
                --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                <t.a.brown@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hi Michael,
                >
                > After responding to your question about published photographs, I
                reread
                > your message and noticed that you also asked about transcriptions.
                >
                > Bruce Prior and I are working on full transcriptions and collations
                of
                > two of the Washington MSS at this moment -- The Gospels MS, about
                which
                > you've inquired, and the Deuteronomy/Joshua MS. Both
                transcriptions are
                > scheduled for publication by the 2006 SBL meetings in Washington,
                DC.
                >
                > These transcriptions follow the layout of the original manuscripts
                > closely. We have even taken pains to measure and represent the
                spaces
                > which the scribe has often used to separate phrases. Word spacing
                has
                > been added for clarity, however, and whenever it has been necessary
                to
                > use editorial judgments, an explanation appears in the footnotes.
                >
                > T. A. Brown
                > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                >
                >


                =
              • Tommy Wasserman
                I have come across a large number of scribal peculiarities through the years. Here are two which someone might help me with: 1) in an MS the final AMHN (in
                Message 7 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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                  I have come across a large number of scribal peculiarities through the
                  years. Here are two which someone might help me with:

                  1) in an MS the final AMHN (in Jude) is written backwards on three
                  lines:

                  HN
                  M
                  A

                  Has anyone seen anything similar?

                  2) In some minuscule MSS there is a sign in the margin, •/•, plus a
                  reading. I interpret the sign as an "obelus periestigmenos." The
                  question is whether this sign has the same function over time, i.e. in
                  the early uncials and in the minuscules, respectively. In short, I am
                  not sure if it unequivocally refers to a correction of the text (or
                  might be a reference to an alternative reading).

                  Any ideas?

                  With regards

                  Tommy Wasserman
                  Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                  Lund University
                  Sweden
                • Timothy Arthur Brown
                  Hello, Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work on the Freer Gospels transcription now. You can expect to see an edition available
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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                    Hello,

                    Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work on the Freer Gospels transcription now.  You can expect to see an edition available at this year's SBL annual meeting in Washington, DC.  The new images I alluded to are, as far as I know, still intended for public release this November as well.  The newest images are those taken by the Freer/Sackler photography department and I think it's safe to assume that this image library will be published by the Freer/Sackler Gallery itself.

                    And now concerning Woodard's "Kodex W". . . Bruce and I first learned of Woodard's theories a couple of years ago.  The claims are wild, but we agreed that such claims, regardless how unbelievable, ought not be automatically rejected simply because they do not conform to our current understanding of the manuscript.  We had at our disposal the tools and access necessary to examine these claims, so we decided to do so.  We were in contact with Lee Woodard by phone and by e-mail and we each had a copy of his book.  Becoming thus fully informed of his claims, we examined high resolution images of the relevant parts of the codex and were unable to substantiate any of Woodard's theories.  Since this examination, I have had opportunity to access the original at the Freer Gallery and must still conclude that Woodard's ideas are without merit.

                    Sincerely,

                    T. A. Brown
                    Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                    mr.scrivener wrote:

                    ------------ --------
                    Dear Mr. Brown:

                    In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing transcriptions
                    of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available on
                    disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                    wondering how your projects are coming along.

                    ------------ --------- -
                    Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
                    discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
                    (the Gospel mss)?

                    http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm

                    Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
                    W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                    beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                    investigation and proper explanation.

                    Any ideas?

                    Curiosity is killing me here...
                    Eeyore

                    ------------ --------- ---------
                    --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                    <t.a.brown@. ..> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Michael,
                    >
                    > After responding to your question about published photographs, I
                    reread
                    > your message and noticed that you also asked about transcriptions.
                    >
                    > Bruce Prior and I are working on full transcriptions and collations
                    of
                    > two of the Washington MSS at this moment -- The Gospels MS, about
                    which
                    > you've inquired, and the Deuteronomy/ Joshua MS. Both
                    transcriptions are
                    > scheduled for publication by the 2006 SBL meetings in Washington,
                    DC.
                    >
                    > These transcriptions follow the layout of the original manuscripts
                    > closely. We have even taken pains to measure and represent the
                    spaces
                    > which the scribe has often used to separate phrases. Word spacing
                    has
                    > been added for clarity, however, and whenever it has been necessary
                    to
                    > use editorial judgments, an explanation appears in the footnotes.
                    >
                    > T. A. Brown
                    > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                    >
                    >


                  • George F Somsel
                    What about the alleged upside down Aramaic text. Is there anything there to which he might refer or is this made up out of whole cloth? _____________ Timothy
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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                      What about the alleged upside down Aramaic text.  Is there anything there to which he might refer or is this made up out of whole cloth?
                       
                      _____________

                      Timothy Arthur Brown <t.a.brown@...> wrote:
                      Hello,

                      Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work on the Freer Gospels transcription now.  You can expect to see an edition available at this year's SBL annual meeting in Washington, DC.  The new images I alluded to are, as far as I know, still intended for public release this November as well.  The newest images are those taken by the Freer/Sackler photography department and I think it's safe to assume that this image library will be published by the Freer/Sackler Gallery itself.

                      And now concerning Woodard's "Kodex W". . . Bruce and I first learned of Woodard's theories a couple of years ago.  The claims are wild, but we agreed that such claims, regardless how unbelievable, ought not be automatically rejected simply because they do not conform to our current understanding of the manuscript.  We had at our disposal the tools and access necessary to examine these claims, so we decided to do so.  We were in contact with Lee Woodard by phone and by e-mail and we each had a copy of his book.  Becoming thus fully informed of his claims, we examined high resolution images of the relevant parts of the codex and were unable to substantiate any of Woodard's theories.  Since this examination, I have had opportunity to access the original at the Freer Gallery and must still conclude that Woodard's ideas are without merit.

                      Sincerely,

                      T. A. Brown
                      Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                      mr.scrivener wrote:
                      ------------ --------
                      Dear Mr. Brown:

                      In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing transcriptions
                      of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available on
                      disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                      wondering how your projects are coming along.

                      ------------ --------- -
                      Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
                      discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
                      (the Gospel mss)?

                      http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm

                      Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
                      W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                      beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                      investigation and proper explanation.

                      Any ideas?

                      Curiosity is killing me here...
                      Eeyore

                      ------------ --------- ---------
                      --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                      <t.a.brown@. ..> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Michael,
                      >
                      > After responding to your question about published photographs, I
                      reread
                      > your message and noticed that you also asked about transcriptions.
                      >
                      > Bruce Prior and I are working on full transcriptions and collations
                      of
                      > two of the Washington MSS at this moment -- The Gospels MS, about
                      which
                      > you've inquired, and the Deuteronomy/ Joshua MS. Both
                      transcriptions are
                      > scheduled for publication by the 2006 SBL meetings in Washington,
                      DC.
                      >
                      > These transcriptions follow the layout of the original manuscripts
                      > closely. We have even taken pains to measure and represent the
                      spaces
                      > which the scribe has often used to separate phrases. Word spacing
                      has
                      > been added for clarity, however, and whenever it has been necessary
                      to
                      > use editorial judgments, an explanation appears in the footnotes.
                      >
                      > T. A. Brown
                      > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                      >
                      >





                      george
                      gfsomsel
                      _________

                      __________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      http://mail.yahoo.com

                    • Kent Clarke
                      I saw that one coming Peter...hahaha Kent Kent D. Clarke (Ph.D. Bristol) Associate Professor of Religious Studies Department of Religious Studies Seal-Kap
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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                        Re: [textualcriticism] Re: Freer Gospels (W 032) I saw that one coming Peter...hahaha

                        Kent


                        Kent D. Clarke (Ph.D. Bristol)
                        Associate Professor of Religious Studies
                        Department of Religious Studies
                        Seal-Kap House
                        Trinity Western University
                        7600 Glover Road
                        Langley, BC
                        V2Y 1Y1
                        Canada




                        On 6/7/06 2:45 AM, "Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...> wrote:


                         
                         

                        OED: Fantastic:

                        Existing only in imagination; proceeding merely from imagination;
                        fabulous, imaginary, unreal (obs.).    b. In mod. use, of alleged
                        reasons, fears, etc.: Perversely or irrationally imagined.

                        Peter M. Head, PhD
                        Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                        Tyndale House
                        36 Selwyn Gardens
                        Cambridge CB3 9BA
                        01223 566601

                         
                            

                      • Timothy Arthur Brown
                        Dear George, Bruce and I were unable to substantiate even a single one of Woodard s claims. T. A. Brown Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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                          Dear George,

                          Bruce and I were unable to substantiate even a single one of Woodard's claims.

                          T. A. Brown
                          Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                          George F Somsel wrote:
                          What about the alleged upside down Aramaic text.  Is there anything there to which he might refer or is this made up out of whole cloth?
                           
                          _____________

                          Timothy Arthur Brown <t.a.brown@...> wrote:
                          Hello,

                          Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work on the Freer Gospels transcription now.  You can expect to see an edition available at this year's SBL annual meeting in Washington, DC.  The new images I alluded to are, as far as I know, still intended for public release this November as well.  The newest images are those taken by the Freer/Sackler photography department and I think it's safe to assume that this image library will be published by the Freer/Sackler Gallery itself.

                          And now concerning Woodard's "Kodex W". . . Bruce and I first learned of Woodard's theories a couple of years ago.  The claims are wild, but we agreed that such claims, regardless how unbelievable, ought not be automatically rejected simply because they do not conform to our current understanding of the manuscript.  We had at our disposal the tools and access necessary to examine these claims, so we decided to do so.  We were in contact with Lee Woodard by phone and by e-mail and we each had a copy of his book.  Becoming thus fully informed of his claims, we examined high resolution images of the relevant parts of the codex and were unable to substantiate any of Woodard's theories.  Since this examination, I have had opportunity to access the original at the Freer Gallery and must still conclude that Woodard's ideas are without merit.

                          Sincerely,

                          T. A. Brown
                          Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                          mr.scrivener wrote:
                          ------------ --------
                          Dear Mr. Brown:

                          In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing transcriptions
                          of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available on
                          disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                          wondering how your projects are coming along.

                          ------------ --------- -
                          Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
                          discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
                          (the Gospel mss)?

                          http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm

                          Althoug h the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
                          W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                          beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                          investigation and proper explanation.

                          Any ideas?

                          Curiosity is killing me here...
                          Eeyore

                          ------------ --------- ---------
                          --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                          <t.a.brown@. ..> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Michael,
                          >
                          > After responding to your question about published photographs, I
                          reread
                          > your message and noticed that you also asked about transcriptions.
                          >
                          > Bruce Prior and I are working on full transcriptions and collations
                          of
                          > two of the Washington MSS at this moment -- The Gospels MS, about
                          which
                          > you've inquired, and the Deuteronomy/ Joshua MS. Both
                          transcriptions are
                          > scheduled for publication by the 2006 SBL meetings in Washington,
                          DC.
                          >
                          > These transcriptions follow the layout of the original manuscripts
                          > closely. We have even taken pains to measure and represent the
                          spaces
                          > which the scribe has often used to separate phrases. Word spacing
                          has
                          > been added for clarity, however, and whenever it has been necessary
                          to
                          > use editorial judgments, an explanation appears in the footnotes.
                          >
                          > T. A. Brown
                          > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                          >
                          >





                          george
                          gfsomsel
                          _________

                          __________________________________________________
                          Do You Yahoo!?
                          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                          http://mail.yahoo.com


                        • mr.scrivener
                          Greetings Mr Wasserman: I have two leads for you: (1) the Jude inscription looks painfully like the Egyptian practice found in Christian Magic amulets and
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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                            Greetings Mr Wasserman:

                            I have two leads for you:

                            (1) the Jude inscription looks painfully like the Egyptian practice
                            found in 'Christian Magic' amulets and small scrolls. I suggest you
                            start with the two following books as an introduction to the subject:

                            Ancient Christian Magic (Coptic texts of ritual power) Edited by
                            Meyer & Smith (Harper Collins 1994), and

                            Medicine, Miracle & Magic in NT Times by H.C. Kee.(Cambridge UP 1986-
                            1990)

                            Also useful might be:
                            Paganism & Christianity 100-425 C.E. A Sourcebook Macmullen & Lane

                            The writing of religious texts backwards or in patterns was very
                            common throughout Egypt and the Aegean in the period.

                            (2) Studying Vaticanus I have come to the conclusion that the 'NT'
                            Obelisk (the one you describe is a lemniscus =dot/dot)has a variety
                            of uses but mostly as a generic indicator of an accidental omission
                            corrected in the margin. there is a good introduction to the changes
                            in meaning over periods and places here:

                            http://www.christianforums.com/t2994963-asterisk-and-obelus-three-
                            different-usages.html





                            --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman <tomwas@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > I have come across a large number of scribal peculiarities through
                            the
                            > years. Here are two which someone might help me with:
                            >
                            > 1) in an MS the final AMHN (in Jude) is written backwards on three
                            > lines:
                            >
                            > HN
                            > M
                            > A
                            >
                            > Has anyone seen anything similar?
                            >
                            > 2) In some minuscule MSS there is a sign in the margin, •/•, plus a
                            > reading. I interpret the sign as an "obelus periestigmenos." The
                            > question is whether this sign has the same function over time, i.e.
                            in
                            > the early uncials and in the minuscules, respectively. In short, I
                            am
                            > not sure if it unequivocally refers to a correction of the text (or
                            > might be a reference to an alternative reading).
                            >
                            > Any ideas?
                            >
                            > With regards
                            >
                            > Tommy Wasserman
                            > Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                            > Lund University
                            > Sweden
                            >
                          • mr.scrivener
                            Dear Mr. Brown: Thank you for your prompt reply: However, you seem to have left an ambiguity - Mr Woodward s ideas may be without merit, but are the marks just
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Dear Mr. Brown:

                              Thank you for your prompt reply:
                              However, you seem to have left an ambiguity -
                              Mr Woodward's ideas may be without merit,
                              but are the marks just dust specks, imperfections in the photos,
                              or actual scribal scribbles, whatever their meaning?
                              Could you clarify?

                              Still perplexed,
                              Eeyore.

                              --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                              <t.a.brown@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello,
                              >
                              > Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work
                              on
                              > the Freer Gospels transcription now. You can expect to see an
                              edition
                              > available at this year's SBL annual meeting in Washington, DC. The
                              new
                              > images I alluded to are, as far as I know, still intended for
                              public
                              > release this November as well. The newest images are those taken
                              by the
                              > Freer/Sackler photography department and I think it's safe to
                              assume
                              > that this image library will be published by the Freer/Sackler
                              Gallery
                              > itself.
                              >
                              > And now concerning Woodard's "Kodex W". . . Bruce and I first
                              learned of
                              > Woodard's theories a couple of years ago. The claims are wild, but
                              we
                              > agreed that such claims, regardless how unbelievable, ought not be
                              > automatically rejected simply because they do not conform to our
                              current
                              > understanding of the manuscript. We had at our disposal the tools
                              and
                              > access necessary to examine these claims, so we decided to do so.
                              We
                              > were in contact with Lee Woodard by phone and by e-mail and we each
                              had
                              > a copy of his book. Becoming thus fully informed of his claims, we
                              > examined high resolution images of the relevant parts of the codex
                              and
                              > were unable to substantiate any of Woodard's theories. Since this
                              > examination, I have had opportunity to access the original at the
                              Freer
                              > Gallery and must still conclude that Woodard's ideas are without
                              merit.
                              >
                              > Sincerely,
                              >
                              > T. A. Brown
                              > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > mr.scrivener wrote:
                              >
                              > > --------------------
                              > > Dear Mr. Brown:
                              > >
                              > > In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing
                              transcriptions
                              > > of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available
                              on
                              > > disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                              > > wondering how your projects are coming along.
                              > >
                              > > ----------------------
                              > > Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to
                              have
                              > > discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex
                              W
                              > > (the Gospel mss)?
                              > >
                              > > http://www.washington-codex.org/woodard_kodex_article_1.htm
                              > > <http://www.washington-codex.org/woodard_kodex_article_1.htm>
                              > >
                              > > Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel
                              Codex
                              > > W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                              > > beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                              > > investigation and proper explanation.
                              > >
                              > > Any ideas?
                              > >
                              > > Curiosity is killing me here...
                              > > Eeyore
                              > >
                              > > ------------------------------
                              >
                            • Jack Kilmon
                              ... From: Peter M. Head To: Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 4:45 AM Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re:
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...>
                                To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 4:45 AM
                                Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: Freer Gospels (W 032)


                                > OED: Fantastic:
                                >
                                >
                                > Existing only in imagination; proceeding merely from imagination;
                                > fabulous, imaginary, unreal (obs.). b. In mod. use, of alleged
                                > reasons, fears, etc.: Perversely or irrationally imagined.


                                I think the word is used more often now in its colloquial shift meaning
                                "excellent" or good beyond expectation.

                                Jack Kilmon
                              • Wieland Willker
                                ... I think in Vaticanus it represents a correction. In Vaticanus also exists a wavy sign (vertical ~) which might indicate an explanation of some kind:
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jun 8, 2006
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                                  Tommy Wasserman wrote:
                                  > 2) In some minuscule MSS there is a sign in the margin, •/•,
                                  > plus a reading.

                                  I think in Vaticanus it represents a correction.

                                  In Vaticanus also exists a wavy sign (vertical ~) which might indicate an explanation of some kind:
                                  http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/Vaticanus/dittographies.html
                                  (image on the right)

                                  Just for completeness sake, in Vaticanus also another sign appears once:
                                  http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/Vaticanus/wordorder.html


                                  Best wishes
                                  Wieland
                                  <><
                                  ------------------------------------------------
                                  Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                                  mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
                                  http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                                  Textcritical commentary:
                                  http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
                                • Tommy Wasserman
                                  ... Thank you mr. scrivener (is that your real name?). Sorry I was not clear - the MS in question is a medieval Greek continuous-text minuscule with no other
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jun 8, 2006
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                                    mr.scrivener wrote:

                                    >
                                    > Greetings Mr Wasserman:
                                    >
                                    > I have two leads for you:
                                    >
                                    > (1) the Jude inscription looks painfully like the Egyptian practice
                                    > found in 'Christian Magic' amulets and small scrolls.

                                    Thank you mr. scrivener (is that your real name?). Sorry I was not
                                    clear - the MS in question is a medieval Greek continuous-text
                                    minuscule with no other signs of "magic" use whatsoever, a subject of
                                    which I am otherwise quite familiar with.

                                    > I suggest you
                                    >
                                    > (2) Studying Vaticanus I have come to the conclusion that the 'NT'
                                    > Obelisk (the one you describe is a lemniscus =dot/dot)has a variety
                                    > of uses but mostly as a generic indicator of an accidental omission
                                    > corrected in the margin. there is a good introduction to the changes
                                    > in meaning over periods and places here:

                                    I found the following information about the symbol in "Transformed Into
                                    His Image" in Grace Theological Journal 2.2 (Fall 1981) 230-31 which
                                    made me hesitat to equal the function to that in the early uncials:

                                    A partial explanation of the symbol is given by Diogenes
                                    Laertius (iii, 66). He names and describes the use of various signs in a
                                    text of Plato; in regard to this sign he says: "the obelos
                                    periestigmenos is for random
                                    rejections (of passages)." Nowhere has ↓ been found among literary
                                    papyri of Classical
                                    authors.

                                    The use of both signs, however, is frequent in Biblical and
                                    Christian papyri. Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus demonstrate
                                    the frequent use of both signs, sometimes together and sometimes
                                    separately, but always where a correction has been made. When
                                    used together, ↓ stands in the margin and •/•. marks the precise place
                                    in
                                    the line for the correction.

                                    Henry A. Sanders notes the use of •/•. in some biblical manuscripts
                                    dated to the fourth or early fifth century, marking the location
                                    of the omission and then repeated in the margin giving the words to
                                    be supplied.

                                    An exact parallel to P.Rob. inv. 28 is described in P. Tura, where ↓
                                    and •/•. stand together in the margin at the beginning of the part to be
                                    supplied.

                                    A somewhat later function of •/• is described by Isidore (A.D. 602-
                                    36), bishop of Seville (1.21): Lemniscus, id est, virgula inter geminos
                                    punctos jacens, opponitur in his locis, quae sacrae Scripturae
                                    interpretes
                                    eadem sensu, sed diversis sermonibus transtulerent, "The
                                    lemniscus, that is a stick lying between two points, is placed in those
                                    places which the interpreters of Holy Scriptures transcribe in the
                                    same sense, but with different expressions."

                                    end of citation

                                    With regards

                                    Tommy Wasserman
                                    Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                    Lund University
                                    Sweden
                                  • Timothy Arthur Brown
                                    Hello, The claims that Woodard makes are so numerous that a full response would require more attention than his ideas deserve. To answer you generally, some
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jun 8, 2006
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                                      Hello,

                                      The claims that Woodard makes are so numerous that a full response would require more attention than his ideas deserve.  To answer you generally, some of what Woodard is seeing is offset, that is, ink which has cross-printed from the facing page; in other instances he is reading things into mere stains in the parchment; sometimes he's attributing special significance to the quite typical scribal decorations of a colophon; and he even finds minute hidden messages in the ragged shapes of letters that have suffered the effects of time and use.

                                      I hope it is clear that Bruce Prior and I investigated Woodard's claims because we feel responsible to consult secondary sources in our work and, for the sake of thoroughness, needed to make a careful, open-minded examination of Woodard's work as well.  As it turns out, Woodard's work proved unworthy of the time we invested in it.

                                      If you would like more detail, you could purchase Woodard's book (though I dislike the idea of giving him undue encouragement) and then purchase the new set of images which will hopefully be made available before the end of the year.  This will enable you to examine his claims yourself.

                                      Yours sincerely,

                                      T. A. Brown
                                      Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                                      mr.scrivener wrote:

                                      Dear Mr. Brown:

                                      Thank you for your prompt reply:
                                      However, you seem to have left an ambiguity -
                                      Mr Woodward's ideas may be without merit,
                                      but are the marks just dust specks, imperfections in the photos,
                                      or actual scribal scribbles, whatever their meaning?
                                      Could you clarify?

                                      Still perplexed,
                                      Eeyore.

                                      --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                                      <t.a.brown@. ..> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello,
                                      >
                                      > Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work
                                      on
                                      > the Freer Gospels transcription now. You can expect to see an
                                      edition
                                      > available at this year's SBL annual meeting in Washington, DC. The
                                      new
                                      > images I alluded to are, as far as I know, still intended for
                                      public
                                      > release this November as well. The newest images are those taken
                                      by the
                                      > Freer/Sackler photography department and I think it's safe to
                                      assume
                                      > that this image library will be published by the Freer/Sackler
                                      Gallery
                                      > itself.
                                      >
                                      > And now concerning Woodard's "Kodex W". . . Bruce and I first
                                      learned of
                                      > Woodard's theories a couple of years ago. The claims are wild, but
                                      we
                                      > agreed that such claims, regardless how unbelievable, ought not be
                                      > automatically rejected simply because they do not conform to our
                                      current
                                      > understanding of the manuscript. We had at our disposal the tools
                                      and
                                      > access necessary to examine these claims, so we decided to do so.
                                      We
                                      > were in contact with Lee Woodard by phone and by e-mail and we each
                                      had
                                      > a copy of his book. Becoming thus fully informed of his claims, we
                                      > examined high resolution images of the relevant parts of the codex
                                      and
                                      > were unable to substantiate any of Woodard's theories. Since this
                                      > examination, I have had opportunity to access the original at the
                                      Freer
                                      > Gallery and must still conclude that Woodard's ideas are without
                                      merit.
                                      >
                                      > Sincerely,
                                      >
                                      > T. A. Brown
                                      > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > mr.scrivener wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > ------------ --------
                                      > > Dear Mr. Brown:
                                      > >
                                      > > In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing
                                      transcriptions
                                      > > of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available
                                      on
                                      > > disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                                      > > wondering how your projects are coming along.
                                      > >
                                      > > ------------ --------- -
                                      > > Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to
                                      have
                                      > > discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex
                                      W
                                      > > (the Gospel mss)?
                                      > >
                                      > > http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm
                                      > > <http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm>
                                      > >
                                      > > Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel
                                      Codex
                                      > > W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                                      > > beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                                      > > investigation and proper explanation.
                                      > >
                                      > > Any ideas?
                                      > >
                                      > > Curiosity is killing me here...
                                      > > Eeyore
                                      > >
                                      > > ------------ --------- ---------
                                      >


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