Re: The Gospel of Judas, Nomenclature, and Papias
"And Moses is the central religious figure in Judaism."
Yes, but what about Talmudic accounts of "Yeshu" where he and his
followers are the central characters?
Sanhedrin 43a - possibly written in the second century:
On the eve of Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the
execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going
forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel
to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come
forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought
forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover! - Ulla
retorted: Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defence could be
made? Was he not a _Mesith_ [enticer], concerning him Scripture says,
_Neither shalt though spare, neither shalt thou conceal him?_ With
Yeshu however it was different, for he was connected with the
government for royalty [i.e., influential]. Our Rabbis taught: Yeshu
had five disciples, Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni, and Todah.
Now I admit that the account is not all that accurate in comparison
with the canonical Gospels, but neither are the GoJ or any of the
other Gnostic accounts for that matter. Because of its dating, the
Talmud might be viewed as a contemporary of the GoJ and the Nag Hamadi
documents. Although Yeshu is a name that is not found in the Hebrew
scriptures, it is the name that Jesus is known by, when spoken to
anyone who understands modern Hebrew.
Should we then categorize the Talmud as Christian and analyze it
textually as such?
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Andrew Bernhard"
> Dear Gie,
> I myself would probably consider any text where Jesus is the one
> revelation of the gnostic teachings to be "Christian", althoughadmittedly
> some of these texts are only superficially Christianized.would deny
> I guess in making my comments, I'm protesting against those who
> the designation "Christian" to texts like the Gospel of Thomas or thetexts do
> recently-recovered Gospel of Judas. While I recognize that these
> not share the theological perspective of the "proto-orthodox", they seemreligious
> obviously Christian to me. Their authors undoubtedly saw themselves as
> followers of Jesus. In both texts, Jesus is obviously the central
> figure and source of saving revelation. On what grounds could anyonesuggest
> that these texts are not Christian, but rather a part of a whollydifferent
> religion?needs some
> However, you raise a very good question and I'm hesitant to give a
> definitive answer at this point. Maybe my classification scheme
> refining (I did just articulate it for the first time tonight).Could you
> specify which texts in particular you are thinking of that might bethat only
> "gnostic" rather than "Christian"?
> Message 6
> From: "Gie Vleugels" gvleugels@...
> Date: Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:34am(PDT)
> Subject: Re: The Gospel of Judas, Nomenclature, and Papias
> Dear Andrew,
> If you're really working with these definitions, would you accept
> those Gnostic texts should be viewed as 'Christian' where "JesusChrist is
> the central religious figure"?might
> Few Nag Hammadi texts will pass the test.
> On 4/17/06, Andrew <abernhar@...> wrote:
> > > Gene:
> > >
> > > Let's take a look at this from yet another perspective. The Muslims
> > > believe that Issa (Jesus) is the Messiah, and that He will return
> > > someday to slay the dajjal (anti-mahdi or messiah). They do not
> > > believe that He is Deity, but do view Him as a savior of sorts.The
> > > Quran talks about Him, and also has a book named after Mary (Sura
> > > Maryam). Should these writings then be reviewed in this forum as
> > > Christian?
> > Of course not.
> > Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are all branches of the Abrahamic
> > faith so there's obviously some overlap in characters. But Muhammed is
> > the central religious figure in the Islam. Jesus is the central
> > religious figure in the Christianity. And Moses is the central
> > religious figure in Judaism.
> > A partial nomenclature of the groups I guess we're now discussing
> > look something like:don't see
> > -Abrahamic faith
> > --Judaism - Moses is the central religious figure
> > ---Pharisees
> > ---Sadducees
> > --Christianity - Jesus Christ is the central religious figure
> > ---Catholic/Proto-Orthodox
> > ---Gnostic
> > --Islam - Muhhamed is the central religious figure
> > ---Sunni
> > ---Shiite
> > If you want to reserve the term "Christian" for those you see as the
> > forerunners of your own faith alone, more power to you. But I
> > anything illogical or unhelpful about the kind of nomenclature I've
> > just proposed.
> > Andrew
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> Gie Vleugels
> ><(((°> + <°)))><
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