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Re: The Gospel of Judas, Nomenclature, and Papias

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  • g_gardner1234
    Quote: And Moses is the central religious figure in Judaism. Yes, but what about Talmudic accounts of Yeshu where he and his followers are the central
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 17, 2006
      Quote:

      "And Moses is the central religious figure in Judaism."

      Yes, but what about Talmudic accounts of "Yeshu" where he and his
      followers are the central characters?

      Sanhedrin 43a - possibly written in the second century:

      On the eve of Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the
      execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going
      forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel
      to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come
      forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought
      forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover! - Ulla
      retorted: Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defence could be
      made? Was he not a _Mesith_ [enticer], concerning him Scripture says,
      _Neither shalt though spare, neither shalt thou conceal him?_ With
      Yeshu however it was different, for he was connected with the
      government for royalty [i.e., influential]. Our Rabbis taught: Yeshu
      had five disciples, Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni, and Todah.

      Now I admit that the account is not all that accurate in comparison
      with the canonical Gospels, but neither are the GoJ or any of the
      other Gnostic accounts for that matter. Because of its dating, the
      Talmud might be viewed as a contemporary of the GoJ and the Nag Hamadi
      documents. Although Yeshu is a name that is not found in the Hebrew
      scriptures, it is the name that Jesus is known by, when spoken to
      anyone who understands modern Hebrew.

      Should we then categorize the Talmud as Christian and analyze it
      textually as such?







      --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Bernhard"
      <abernhar@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Gie,
      >
      > I myself would probably consider any text where Jesus is the one
      giving the
      > revelation of the gnostic teachings to be "Christian", although
      admittedly
      > some of these texts are only superficially Christianized.
      >
      > I guess in making my comments, I'm protesting against those who
      would deny
      > the designation "Christian" to texts like the Gospel of Thomas or the
      > recently-recovered Gospel of Judas. While I recognize that these
      texts do
      > not share the theological perspective of the "proto-orthodox", they seem
      > obviously Christian to me. Their authors undoubtedly saw themselves as
      > followers of Jesus. In both texts, Jesus is obviously the central
      religious
      > figure and source of saving revelation. On what grounds could anyone
      suggest
      > that these texts are not Christian, but rather a part of a wholly
      different
      > religion?
      >
      > However, you raise a very good question and I'm hesitant to give a
      > definitive answer at this point. Maybe my classification scheme
      needs some
      > refining (I did just articulate it for the first time tonight).
      Could you
      > specify which texts in particular you are thinking of that might be
      > "gnostic" rather than "Christian"?
      >
      > Best,
      > Andrew
      >
      > Message 6
      > From: "Gie Vleugels" gvleugels@...
      > Date: Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:34am(PDT)
      > Subject: Re: The Gospel of Judas, Nomenclature, and Papias
      >
      > Dear Andrew,
      > If you're really working with these definitions, would you accept
      that only
      > those Gnostic texts should be viewed as 'Christian' where "Jesus
      Christ is
      > the central religious figure"?
      > Few Nag Hammadi texts will pass the test.
      > Yours,
      > Gie
      >
      >
      > On 4/17/06, Andrew <abernhar@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > > Gene:
      > > >
      > > > Let's take a look at this from yet another perspective. The Muslims
      > > > believe that Issa (Jesus) is the Messiah, and that He will return
      > > > someday to slay the dajjal (anti-mahdi or messiah). They do not
      > > > believe that He is Deity, but do view Him as a savior of sorts.The
      > > > Quran talks about Him, and also has a book named after Mary (Sura
      > > > Maryam). Should these writings then be reviewed in this forum as
      > > > Christian?
      > >
      > > Of course not.
      > >
      > > Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are all branches of the Abrahamic
      > > faith so there's obviously some overlap in characters. But Muhammed is
      > > the central religious figure in the Islam. Jesus is the central
      > > religious figure in the Christianity. And Moses is the central
      > > religious figure in Judaism.
      > >
      > > A partial nomenclature of the groups I guess we're now discussing
      might
      > > look something like:
      > >
      > > -Abrahamic faith
      > > --Judaism - Moses is the central religious figure
      > > ---Pharisees
      > > ---Sadducees
      > > --Christianity - Jesus Christ is the central religious figure
      > > ---Catholic/Proto-Orthodox
      > > ---Gnostic
      > > --Islam - Muhhamed is the central religious figure
      > > ---Sunni
      > > ---Shiite
      > >
      > > If you want to reserve the term "Christian" for those you see as the
      > > forerunners of your own faith alone, more power to you. But I
      don't see
      > > anything illogical or unhelpful about the kind of nomenclature I've
      > > just proposed.
      > >
      > > Andrew
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Gie Vleugels
      >
      > ><(((°> + <°)))><
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
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