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Re: Vorlage and other terminuses technicusses (!)

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  • James M. Leonard
    Since we re talking about theological German, I thought I d ask whether agrapha refers only to the non-canonical sayings attributed to Christ, or to
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 4, 2006
      Since we're talking about theological German, I thought I'd ask
      whether agrapha refers only to the non-canonical sayings attributed
      to Christ, or to non-canonical narrative traditions as well.

      And, along the same lines, what about alogoi?

      Thanks
      Jim Leonard
      Southwestern Pennsylvania

      --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Dr P.J. Williams"
      <p.j.williams@a...> wrote:
      >
      > Wieland wrote:
      >
      > > Generally, it is a bad habit that Theologians use these German
      words,
      > > often
      > > not really knowing what they mean or how to write them. They
      only confuse
      > > the reader. I think the English language has enough words to
      express
      > > yourself.
      >
      > I generally agree. _Vorlage_, regrettably, has no ready English
      equivalent
      > and is vital as a word in many of the things I write!
      >
      > Best wishes,
      >
      > Pete Williams
      >
    • James Miller
      ... OED gives, both contrary to and in agreement (though concerning French rather than English) with your statement: 2. An original version of a manuscript or
      Message 2 of 9 , May 4, 2006
        On Thu, 8 Dec 2005, Michael Marlowe wrote:

        > Wieland wrote:
        >
        >> Vorlage is a German word and means in this context
        >> something like "template, original, model". Normally it
        >> is meant as the MS from which something is directly
        >> copied or translated. So, every MS or translation has
        >> a vorlage. Another word for vorlage is exemplar.
        >
        > I may be wrong, but it seems to me that in scholarly literature written in
        > the English language, the German word Vorlage is used to indicate the
        > mansucript from which a translation is done, but not normally as general
        > term meaning "exemplar," in reference to manuscripts from which copies are
        > made. So there seems to be a more specialized sense for this loan-word in
        > English, although in the context of the German language it has a broader
        > meaning.

        OED gives, both contrary to and in agreement (though concerning French
        rather than English) with your statement:

        2. An original version of a manuscript or a book from which a
        copy is produced.
        1965 K. MALONE in Bessinger & Creed Medieval & Linguistic Stud. 120, I
        conceive that our scribe copied as heol the hleo of his vorlage. 1975
        Times Lit. Suppl. 25 Apr. 462/4 This was first published in a French
        translation..in 1930 and was not followed by the Amharic original till
        more than thirty-five years later... More than one Amharic original was
        in existence, and the published text was not the Vorlage used for the
        1930 French edition.

        WH use "exemplar" for the thing I was trying to talk about, which is also
        sensible. I used primarily "Vorlage" since my chief source (in German)
        was, of course, using it. In the context I was dealing with, perhaps a
        bit of further clarity is needed though. In fact, every biblical
        manuscript is either a copy of some other Vorlage or is itself a Vorlage
        for other copies--which introduces the possibility of being a Vorlage at
        some remove. I recently ran across Lake's "direct archetype" terminology
        which is perhaps less ambiguous and clearer in meaning for English
        speakers.

        James
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