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Vorlage

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  • Wieland Willker
    ... Vorlage is a German word and means in this context something like template, original, model . Normally it is meant as the MS from which something is
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 8, 2005
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      > I'm tempted to use the word 'vorlage' in this context, as I > think I know what it means, but I must confess I have
      > yet to see it defined except as a skiing term, so I
      > forbear in hopes that someone here will more perfectly
      > enlighten me.


      Vorlage is a German word and means in this context something like "template, original, model". Normally it is meant as the MS from which something is directly copied or translated. So, every MS or translation has a vorlage.
      Another word for vorlage is exemplar. I think it was originally typesetter's language.


      Best wishes
      Wieland
      <><
      ------------------------------------------------
      Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
      mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
      Textcritical commentary:
      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
    • feeite_christian
      I only know about 5 words in German, but I had thought there to be a distinction between vorlage and exemplar. Correct me if I am mistaken, but I had thought
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 8, 2005
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        I only know about 5 words in German, but I had thought there to be a
        distinction between vorlage and exemplar.

        Correct me if I am mistaken, but I had thought vorlage is often used
        in source/redaction criticism to refer to the document from which an
        author created his new writing.

        On this score, coming to tc, I had thought that vorlage would refer
        more to the text form from which a ms was derived, and not its
        exemplar.

        Any suggested reading on theological German?


        Jim Leonard
        Southwestern Pennsylvania



        --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Wieland Willker"
        <willker@c...> wrote:
        >
        > > I'm tempted to use the word 'vorlage' in this context, as I >
        think I know what it means, but I must confess I have
        > > yet to see it defined except as a skiing term, so I
        > > forbear in hopes that someone here will more perfectly
        > > enlighten me.
        >
        >
        > Vorlage is a German word and means in this context something
        like "template, original, model". Normally it is meant as the MS
        from which something is directly copied or translated. So, every MS
        or translation has a vorlage.
        > Another word for vorlage is exemplar. I think it was originally
        typesetter's language.
        >
        >
        > Best wishes
        > Wieland
        > <><
        > ------------------------------------------------
        > Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
        > mailto:willker@c...
        > http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
        > Textcritical commentary:
        > http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
        >
      • Michael Marlowe
        ... I may be wrong, but it seems to me that in scholarly literature written in the English language, the German word Vorlage is used to indicate the mansucript
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 8, 2005
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          Wieland wrote:

          > Vorlage is a German word and means in this context
          > something like "template, original, model". Normally it
          > is meant as the MS from which something is directly
          > copied or translated. So, every MS or translation has
          > a vorlage. Another word for vorlage is exemplar.

          I may be wrong, but it seems to me that in scholarly literature written in
          the English language, the German word Vorlage is used to indicate the
          mansucript from which a translation is done, but not normally as general
          term meaning "exemplar," in reference to manuscripts from which copies are
          made. So there seems to be a more specialized sense for this loan-word in
          English, although in the context of the German language it has a broader
          meaning.

          Michael
        • James M. Leonard
          Vorlage and Sondergut I m still trying to master my German…. Earlier, someone had posed that Vorlage had reference to the text behind a version; e.g.,
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 29, 2005
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            Vorlage and Sondergut

            I'm still trying to master my German….

            Earlier, someone had posed that Vorlage had reference to the text
            behind a version; e.g., whether the Old Syriac had a Greek Vorlage.

            I was a little uncertain as to whether a translation needed to be
            involved for the proper usage of the term Vorlage. For example,
            here is Helmut Koester using it in regard to a text base from which
            a new composition is written, without reference to a
            translation: "It seems to me that the way in which Justin's
            catechisms move from one saying to another suggests that he is not
            composing a catechism and, at the same time, harmonizing the
            readings of the two Gospels for that particular purpose. Rather,
            the sayings he included in his catechism were already harmonized in
            his Vorlage." Of course, Justin was dealing with the one Greek
            language.

            Koester continues, by the way, with a striking conclusion regarding
            Justin's text: "Whoever produced this Vorlage—and I am inclined to
            think that it was Justin himself or his 'school'—did not intend to
            construct a catechism, but was composing the one inclusive new
            Gospel which would make its predecessors, Matthew and Luke (and
            possibly Mark), obsolete" ("The Text of the Synoptic Gospels in the
            Second Century" in Gospel Traditions in the Second Century:
            Origins, Recensions, Text, and Transmission, William L. Petersen,
            ed., 29-30).

            On the other hand, if the term Vorlage is more appropriate for
            translational contexts, I wonder if the term Sondergut would have
            been a better choice for Koester's usage.

            Is there a standard theological German dictionary?


            Jim Leonard




            --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Marlowe"
            <marlow@t...> wrote:
            >
            > Wieland wrote:
            >
            > > Vorlage is a German word and means in this context
            > > something like "template, original, model". Normally it
            > > is meant as the MS from which something is directly
            > > copied or translated. So, every MS or translation has
            > > a vorlage. Another word for vorlage is exemplar.
            >
            > I may be wrong, but it seems to me that in scholarly literature
            written in
            > the English language, the German word Vorlage is used to indicate
            the
            > mansucript from which a translation is done, but not normally as
            general
            > term meaning "exemplar," in reference to manuscripts from which
            copies are
            > made. So there seems to be a more specialized sense for this loan-
            word in
            > English, although in the context of the German language it has a
            broader
            > meaning.
            >
            > Michael
            >
          • James Spinti
            There is this: Modern Theological German:: A Reader and Dictionary by Helmut W. Ziefle Baker Academic, 1997 357 pages, German and English, Paper ISBN:
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 29, 2005
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              There is this:
              "Modern Theological German:: A Reader and Dictionary"
              by Helmut W. Ziefle
              Baker Academic, 1997
              357 pages, German and English, Paper
              ISBN: 0801021448
              List Price: $29.99 -- cheaper online [of course I recommend
              Eisenbrauns!]

              From the description:
              Helmust Ziefle's Modern Theological German equips students with a unique
              tool for learning theological German. This handy reference combines a
              revised edition of the author's accessible German reader with his
              Dictionary of Modern Theological German.

              The dictionary, previously published as a separate volume contains over
              20,000 terms. Many of these terms are part of the specialized
              theological vocabulary not generally found, or given but slight
              treatment, in standard German dictionaries.

              HTH,
              James
              ________________________________
              James Spinti
              Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
              Eisenbrauns, Good books for 30 years
              Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
              jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
              Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
              Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
              Fax: 574-269-6788



              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James
              > M. Leonard
              > Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 10:48 AM
              > To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: Vorlage and Sondergut
              >
              <snip>
              > Is there a standard theological German dictionary?
              >
              >
              > Jim Leonard
              >
              >
            • Wieland Willker
              As you can see from the previous discussion there is no strict definition of Vorlage in textcritical contexts. It is not confined to translations, but often
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 29, 2005
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                As you can see from the previous discussion there is no strict definition of
                Vorlage in textcritical contexts. It is not confined to translations, but
                often used for it.
                Sondergut (= "special material") is something completely different. It is
                the material that one evangelist has alone.

                Generally, it is a bad habit that Theologians use these German words, often
                not really knowing what they mean or how to write them. They only confuse
                the reader. I think the English language has enough words to express
                yourself.

                Best wishes
                Wieland
                <><
                ------------------------------------------------
                Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
                http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                Textcritical commentary:
                http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
              • Dr P.J. Williams
                ... I generally agree. _Vorlage_, regrettably, has no ready English equivalent and is vital as a word in many of the things I write! Best wishes, Pete Williams
                Message 7 of 9 , Dec 30, 2005
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                  Wieland wrote:

                  > Generally, it is a bad habit that Theologians use these German words,
                  > often
                  > not really knowing what they mean or how to write them. They only confuse
                  > the reader. I think the English language has enough words to express
                  > yourself.

                  I generally agree. _Vorlage_, regrettably, has no ready English equivalent
                  and is vital as a word in many of the things I write!

                  Best wishes,

                  Pete Williams
                • James M. Leonard
                  Since we re talking about theological German, I thought I d ask whether agrapha refers only to the non-canonical sayings attributed to Christ, or to
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 4, 2006
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                    Since we're talking about theological German, I thought I'd ask
                    whether agrapha refers only to the non-canonical sayings attributed
                    to Christ, or to non-canonical narrative traditions as well.

                    And, along the same lines, what about alogoi?

                    Thanks
                    Jim Leonard
                    Southwestern Pennsylvania

                    --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Dr P.J. Williams"
                    <p.j.williams@a...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Wieland wrote:
                    >
                    > > Generally, it is a bad habit that Theologians use these German
                    words,
                    > > often
                    > > not really knowing what they mean or how to write them. They
                    only confuse
                    > > the reader. I think the English language has enough words to
                    express
                    > > yourself.
                    >
                    > I generally agree. _Vorlage_, regrettably, has no ready English
                    equivalent
                    > and is vital as a word in many of the things I write!
                    >
                    > Best wishes,
                    >
                    > Pete Williams
                    >
                  • James Miller
                    ... OED gives, both contrary to and in agreement (though concerning French rather than English) with your statement: 2. An original version of a manuscript or
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 4 12:44 PM
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                      On Thu, 8 Dec 2005, Michael Marlowe wrote:

                      > Wieland wrote:
                      >
                      >> Vorlage is a German word and means in this context
                      >> something like "template, original, model". Normally it
                      >> is meant as the MS from which something is directly
                      >> copied or translated. So, every MS or translation has
                      >> a vorlage. Another word for vorlage is exemplar.
                      >
                      > I may be wrong, but it seems to me that in scholarly literature written in
                      > the English language, the German word Vorlage is used to indicate the
                      > mansucript from which a translation is done, but not normally as general
                      > term meaning "exemplar," in reference to manuscripts from which copies are
                      > made. So there seems to be a more specialized sense for this loan-word in
                      > English, although in the context of the German language it has a broader
                      > meaning.

                      OED gives, both contrary to and in agreement (though concerning French
                      rather than English) with your statement:

                      2. An original version of a manuscript or a book from which a
                      copy is produced.
                      1965 K. MALONE in Bessinger & Creed Medieval & Linguistic Stud. 120, I
                      conceive that our scribe copied as heol the hleo of his vorlage. 1975
                      Times Lit. Suppl. 25 Apr. 462/4 This was first published in a French
                      translation..in 1930 and was not followed by the Amharic original till
                      more than thirty-five years later... More than one Amharic original was
                      in existence, and the published text was not the Vorlage used for the
                      1930 French edition.

                      WH use "exemplar" for the thing I was trying to talk about, which is also
                      sensible. I used primarily "Vorlage" since my chief source (in German)
                      was, of course, using it. In the context I was dealing with, perhaps a
                      bit of further clarity is needed though. In fact, every biblical
                      manuscript is either a copy of some other Vorlage or is itself a Vorlage
                      for other copies--which introduces the possibility of being a Vorlage at
                      some remove. I recently ran across Lake's "direct archetype" terminology
                      which is perhaps less ambiguous and clearer in meaning for English
                      speakers.

                      James
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