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Re: [textualcriticism] Stephen Carlson's "Gospel Hoax" on Secret Mark

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  • Stephen C. Carlson
    ... The page is either f.1.r (rightside-up) or f.17.v (upside- down). The orientation of the handwriting at the top of the page would indicate that, unless it
    Message 1 of 31 , Dec 5, 2005
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      At 10:28 AM 12/5/2005 +0000, Peter Head wrote:
      >What you are saying is that you considered various possibilities for the
      >identification of the page in the photo 5A, including the one I have
      >proposed (but which you did not adopt). But I wonder whether there is ANY
      >positive evidence for the identification you adopt?
      >
      >According to Smith the Madiotes sheet is:
      >a) f.1.r: i.e. the opening sheet of the whole book

      The page is either f.1.r (rightside-up) or f.17.v (upside-
      down). The orientation of the handwriting at the top of
      the page would indicate that, unless it is upside-down, it
      is the f.1.r page.

      Further confirmation of the orientation of the book comes
      from Smith's caption for the picture (SECRET GOSPEL, p.
      37) states: "The endpaper, here turned down, was a page
      from a Georgian manuscript. . . . The leather edge of the
      binding is seen at the left; the bound, modern Greek
      manuscript, at the right." The word "down" is appropriate
      if the page is f.1.r; it is inappropriate if the page is
      f.17.v. The consistency of Smith's numbering of the pages
      in his catalog with his description of the orientation of
      the MS in his photo means that the page must be f.1.r.

      Further corroboration, should that even be necessary, comes
      from the content of the second hand (both as listed in the
      catalog and from the top-down in the MS), which is assigned
      by Smith to "the monk Dionysios, Archimandrite", one of whose
      lines reads "MONAXOU KAI ARXIMANDRITOU." [Negatively, for
      the f.17.v. identification, none of the content shown in the
      photo corresponds to "Luke, son of the blessed Panagiotos,
      the tailor (ampatzes)."]

      In light of the tacit withdrawal of the alternative proposal,
      which had confounded not only recto and verso but also Greek
      and Latin letters, I see no reasonable basis to question the
      identification of the page as f.1.r.

      Stephen Carlson
      --
      Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
      Weblog: http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
      Author of: The Gospel Hoax, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
    • Peter Head
      Thanks again Stephen - that is a good job and a good reply, The photo and caption in Secret Gospel are useful here (in support of your case - clearer than the
      Message 31 of 31 , Dec 6, 2005
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        Thanks again Stephen - that is a good job and a good reply,

        The photo and caption in Secret Gospel are useful here (in support of your
        case - clearer than the photo in your book actually) and it does look like
        5A is the front page of the book = f.1.r.
        Together with the information you provided that:
        one of whose lines reads "MONAXOU KAI ARXIMANDRITOU."
        That certainly fits with Smith's catalogue description.
        No names noted as yet, and also 'tacit withdrawals' on your side!

        My 'tacit withdrawal' of the alternative proposal was more of a strategic
        withdrawal (I'd rather try to disprove your identification than to have to
        prove the alternative). But now I'm willing to acquiesce (surrender) to the
        proposed identification of 5A = f.1.r. [I'd be even happier to know that
        someone had seen the relevant names on this sheet as well of course, but as
        a working hypothesis this does seem to be the only viable option on the table]

        Presumably your confidence that the upper text is Madiotes comes from the
        order of treatment in Smith's catalogue.

        Cheers for now

        Peter


        At 02:52 PM 12/5/05, you wrote:
        >At 10:28 AM 12/5/2005 +0000, Peter Head wrote:
        > >What you are saying is that you considered various possibilities for the
        > >identification of the page in the photo 5A, including the one I have
        > >proposed (but which you did not adopt). But I wonder whether there is ANY
        > >positive evidence for the identification you adopt?
        > >
        > >According to Smith the Madiotes sheet is:
        > >a) f.1.r: i.e. the opening sheet of the whole book
        >
        >The page is either f.1.r (rightside-up) or f.17.v (upside-
        >down). The orientation of the handwriting at the top of
        >the page would indicate that, unless it is upside-down, it
        >is the f.1.r page.
        >
        >Further confirmation of the orientation of the book comes
        >from Smith's caption for the picture (SECRET GOSPEL, p.
        >37) states: "The endpaper, here turned down, was a page
        >from a Georgian manuscript. . . . The leather edge of the
        >binding is seen at the left; the bound, modern Greek
        >manuscript, at the right." The word "down" is appropriate
        >if the page is f.1.r; it is inappropriate if the page is
        >f.17.v. The consistency of Smith's numbering of the pages
        >in his catalog with his description of the orientation of
        >the MS in his photo means that the page must be f.1.r.
        >
        >Further corroboration, should that even be necessary, comes
        >from the content of the second hand (both as listed in the
        >catalog and from the top-down in the MS), which is assigned
        >by Smith to "the monk Dionysios, Archimandrite", one of whose
        >lines reads "MONAXOU KAI ARXIMANDRITOU." [Negatively, for
        >the f.17.v. identification, none of the content shown in the
        >photo corresponds to "Luke, son of the blessed Panagiotos,
        >the tailor (ampatzes)."]
        >
        >In light of the tacit withdrawal of the alternative proposal,
        >which had confounded not only recto and verso but also Greek
        >and Latin letters, I see no reasonable basis to question the
        >identification of the page as f.1.r.
        >
        >Stephen Carlson
        >--
        >Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
        >Weblog: http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
        >Author of: The Gospel Hoax, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481

        Peter M. Head, PhD
        Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
        Tyndale House
        36 Selwyn Gardens Phone: (UK) 01223
        566607
        Cambridge, CB3 9BA Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
        http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm
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