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Re: Modified image of Codex Washingtonensis

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  • Wieland Willker
    ... It s no joke. ... It s at least a modified image. I have not read the book, just seen the cover. Best wishes Wieland
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 13, 2004
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      > I don't get the joke.

      It's no joke.

      > It's a fraud right?

      It's at least a "modified" image. I have not read the book, just seen
      the cover.

      Best wishes
      Wieland
      <><
      ------------------------------------------------
      Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
      mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
      Textcritical commentary:
      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
    • Harold P. Scanlin
      Apparently, the appearance of a brief note on the tetragrammaton in the NT by Pierro in the respected journal Rivista Biblica 45(1997):183-186, created a
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 13, 2004
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        Apparently, the appearance of a brief note on the tetragrammaton in the NT by Pierro in the respected journal Rivista Biblica 45(1997):183-186, created a discussion and response(s), as described by Achille Aveta at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/6685/pyrrhus.htm

         

        Harold P. Scanlin

        41 Waldheim Park

        Allentown, PA  18103

        voice  610-791-9146

        fax  610-791-0439

        harold.scanlin@...

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chris [mailto:chris@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 10:42 AM
        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Modified image of Codex Washingtonensis

         



        I don't get the joke. It's a fraud right?


        Wieland Willker wrote:

        >>From the curiosities cabinet:
        >Tetragrammaton in the Codex Washingtonensis?
        >Have a look at:
        >http://utenti.lycos.it/matteopierro/geova.htm
        >
        >It is the first page of the Gospel of Mark in Codex W 032. For the
        >original image compare:
        >http://www.beloit.edu/~classics/GospelOfMark/
        >
        >
        >Best wishes
        >    Wieland
        >       <><
        >------------------------------------------------
        >Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
        >mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
        >http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
        >Textcritical commentary:
        >http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
        >
        >
        >
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        >Yahoo! Groups Links
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        >






      • Dave Washburn
        Looking at the huge gaps around the purported word, it s not even a good forgery... ... -- Dave Washburn http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur No good. Hit on head.
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 13, 2004
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          Looking at the huge gaps around the purported word, it's not even a good
          forgery...

          On Wednesday 13 October 2004 08:22, Wieland Willker wrote:
          > >From the curiosities cabinet:
          >
          > Tetragrammaton in the Codex Washingtonensis?
          > Have a look at:
          > http://utenti.lycos.it/matteopierro/geova.htm
          >
          > It is the first page of the Gospel of Mark in Codex W 032. For the
          > original image compare:
          > http://www.beloit.edu/~classics/GospelOfMark/
          >
          >
          > Best wishes
          >     Wieland
          >        <><
          > ------------------------------------------------
          > Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
          > mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
          > http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
          > Textcritical commentary:
          > http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
          >
          >
          >
          >
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          "No good. Hit on head." -Gronk
        • J. Ted Blakley
          ... Wieland
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 13, 2004
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            >> I don't get the joke.
            >
            >It's no joke.
            >
            >> It's a fraud
            right?
            >
            >It's at least a "modified" image. I have not read the
            book, just seen
            >the cover.
            >
            >Best
            wishes
                Wieland
                   <><

            I agree with Wieland's careful response to whether this is a fraud, especially given that it is on the cover of a book. It is very possible that the book argues that the tetragrammaton was in the original manuscript(s) and that the image on the front cover is an artists' rendering of what it would have looked like. Perhaps he argues that on this particular manuscript the tetragrammaton was erased and replaced with KY. But without knowing the argument of the book, it is impossible to determine whether the image on the cover is being presented as evidence for the thesis (and so fraudulent) or merely as an illustration accompanying the thesis.
                Of course, the danger is that even if it is simply a modified image for the sake of illustrating what may have been present once, the image itself, detached from the argument of the book, could be used to argue that the tetragrammaton is in fact on an actual NT manuscript in existence and so deceive many people.
             
            Sincerely,
            Ted 
            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            J. Ted Blakley
             
            Ph.D. Candidate (New Testament)
            St Mary's College
            University of St Andrews
             
            jtb1@...
            -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 4:24 PM
            Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: Modified image of Codex Washingtonensis

            > I don't get the joke.

            It's no joke.

            > It's a fraud right?

            It's at least a "modified" image. I have not read the book, just seen
            the cover.

            Best wishes
                Wieland
                   <><
            ------------------------------------------------
            Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
            mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
            Textcritical commentary:
            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html



          • Jack Kilmon
            ... From: Wieland Willker To: Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 9:22 AM Subject:
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 13, 2004
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Wieland Willker" <willker@...-bremen.de>
              To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 9:22 AM
              Subject: [textualcriticism] Modified image of Codex Washingtonensis


              >
              > From the curiosities cabinet:
              > Tetragrammaton in the Codex Washingtonensis?
              > Have a look at:
              > http://utenti.lycos.it/matteopierro/geova.htm
              >
              > It is the first page of the Gospel of Mark in Codex W 032. For the
              > original image compare:
              > http://www.beloit.edu/~classics/GospelOfMark/
              >
              >
              > Best wishes
              > Wieland
              > <><

              What I find MOST interesting about W Mark is the insert after 16:14:

              "....and they excused themselves saying, "this age of lawlessness and
              unbelief is under Satan who by his unclean spirits does not allow the true
              power of God to be comprehended. Therefore now reveal thy righteousness."
              So they spoke to Christ and Christ addressed them thus: "The limit of the
              years of Satan's authority has been fulfilled, but other terrible things are
              drawing near, even to those sinners on whose behalf I was handed over to
              death, that they may turn to the truth and sin no more. In order that they
              may inherit the spiritual and incorruptible glory of righteousness in
              Heaven, go ye unto alll the world and preach the gospel to the whole
              creation......."

              Where did this come from? W from 1:1 to 5:31 is Western and from 5:31 to
              16:20 is Caesarean. I don't think this is some relic of an ur-Markus.

              Jack
            • Dan Bellapianta (MedOPS)
              From reading the comments on the book ( http://utenti.lycos.it/matteopierro/geova.htm), the question/argument presented is: Pierro also analyzes the causes
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 14, 2004
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                From reading the comments on the book ( http://utenti.lycos.it/matteopierro/geova.htm), the question/argument presented is:

                "Pierro also analyzes the causes which brought the substitution of Kurios (From kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, ) in the position of the name YHWH (tetragrammaton - the four Hebrew letters usually transliterated YHWH or JHVH that form a biblical proper name of God) which came in the early Christian Greek text."

                "Il Pierro analizza anche le cause che portano alla sostituzione di Kyrios al posto del teonoma YHWH avvenuta nei primitivi testi cristiani in greco."

                He also brings up the question of proper pronounciation of YHWH "Yahowa e non Yahwe".

                ------------------------------------
                Thank you for your kind help.

                Dan Bellapianta
                dan@...
                www.medops.net

                -----Original Message-----
                From: "J. Ted Blakley" <jtb1@...>
                Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:34:57
                To:<textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: Modified image of Codex Washingtonensis

                >> I don't get the joke.
                >
                >It's no joke.
                >
                >> It's a fraud right?
                >
                >It's at least a "modified" image. I have not read the book, just seen
                >the cover.
                >
                >Best wishes
                Wieland
                <><

                I agree with Wieland's careful response to whether this is a fraud, especially given that it is on the cover of a book. It is very possible that the book argues that the tetragrammaton was in the original manuscript(s) and that the image on the front cover is an artists' rendering of what it would have looked like. Perhaps he argues that on this particular manuscript the tetragrammaton was erased and replaced with KY. But without knowing the argument of the book, it is impossible to determine whether the image on the cover is being presented as evidence for the thesis (and so fraudulent) or merely as an illustration accompanying the thesis.
                Of course, the danger is that even if it is simply a modified image for the sake of illustrating what may have been present once, the image itself, detached from the argument of the book, could be used to argue that the tetragrammaton is in fact on an actual NT manuscript in existence and so deceive many people.

                Sincerely,
                Ted
                ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                J. Ted Blakley

                Ph.D. Candidate (New Testament)
                St Mary's College
                University of St Andrews

                jtb1@...
                -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Wieland Willker
                To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 4:24 PM
                Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: Modified image of Codex Washingtonensis

                > I don't get the joke.

                It's no joke.

                > It's a fraud right?

                It's at least a "modified" image. I have not read the book, just seen
                the cover.

                Best wishes
                Wieland
                <><
                ------------------------------------------------
                Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
                http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                Textcritical commentary:
                http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html




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              • Jack Kilmon
                ... From: Dan Bellapianta (MedOPS) To: Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 2:05 AM Subject: Re:
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 14, 2004
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Dan Bellapianta (MedOPS)" <dan@...>
                  To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 2:05 AM
                  Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: Modified image of Codex Washingtonensis



                  >
                  > He also brings up the question of proper pronounciation of YHWH "Yahowa e
                  > non Yahwe".

                  Absolutely no way for him to know and since his "suggestion" is so close to
                  the nonsense word "Jehovah" probably quite wrong. It is more likely that
                  YHWH is the imperfect qal or hiph'il of hwh, "to be" meaning "He who exists"
                  hence yeHAwa would be a better guess.
                  ]
                  Jack
                • Wieland Willker
                  ... Here a manipulated image of Codex W/032 occurs on the title page of a book from Matteo Pierro. Now, a friendly reader alerts me of a rebuttal and response
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 9, 2004
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                    Recently I wrote:
                    > From the curiosities cabinet:
                    > Tetragrammaton in the Codex Washingtonensis?
                    > Have a look at:
                    > http://utenti.lycos.it/matteopierro/geova.htm


                    Here a manipulated image of Codex W/032 occurs on the title page of a
                    book from Matteo Pierro. Now, a friendly reader alerts me of a rebuttal
                    and response to that book at:

                    http://home.europa.com/~lynnlund/itm2books.htm

                    The homepage BTW claims to be "the leading research web site dedicated
                    exclusively to the study of the Tetragrammaton."
                    It might therefore be helpful to those interested in a discussion with
                    Jehowah's witnesses.

                    Best wishes
                    Wieland
                    <><
                    ------------------------------------------------
                    Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                    mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
                    http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                    Textcritical commentary:
                    http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
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