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Re: [textualcriticism] Modified image of Codex Washingtonensis

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  • Chris
    I don t get the joke. It s a fraud right?
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 13, 2004
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      I don't get the joke. It's a fraud right?


      Wieland Willker wrote:

      >>From the curiosities cabinet:
      >Tetragrammaton in the Codex Washingtonensis?
      >Have a look at:
      >http://utenti.lycos.it/matteopierro/geova.htm
      >
      >It is the first page of the Gospel of Mark in Codex W 032. For the
      >original image compare:
      >http://www.beloit.edu/~classics/GospelOfMark/
      >
      >
      >Best wishes
      > Wieland
      > <><
      >------------------------------------------------
      >Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
      >mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
      >http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
      >Textcritical commentary:
      >http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
      >
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      >Yahoo! Groups Links
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    • Wieland Willker
      ... It s no joke. ... It s at least a modified image. I have not read the book, just seen the cover. Best wishes Wieland
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 13, 2004
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        > I don't get the joke.

        It's no joke.

        > It's a fraud right?

        It's at least a "modified" image. I have not read the book, just seen
        the cover.

        Best wishes
        Wieland
        <><
        ------------------------------------------------
        Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
        mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
        http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
        Textcritical commentary:
        http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
      • Harold P. Scanlin
        Apparently, the appearance of a brief note on the tetragrammaton in the NT by Pierro in the respected journal Rivista Biblica 45(1997):183-186, created a
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 13, 2004
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          Apparently, the appearance of a brief note on the tetragrammaton in the NT by Pierro in the respected journal Rivista Biblica 45(1997):183-186, created a discussion and response(s), as described by Achille Aveta at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/6685/pyrrhus.htm

           

          Harold P. Scanlin

          41 Waldheim Park

          Allentown, PA  18103

          voice  610-791-9146

          fax  610-791-0439

          harold.scanlin@...

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Chris [mailto:chris@...]
          Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 10:42 AM
          To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Modified image of Codex Washingtonensis

           



          I don't get the joke. It's a fraud right?


          Wieland Willker wrote:

          >>From the curiosities cabinet:
          >Tetragrammaton in the Codex Washingtonensis?
          >Have a look at:
          >http://utenti.lycos.it/matteopierro/geova.htm
          >
          >It is the first page of the Gospel of Mark in Codex W 032. For the
          >original image compare:
          >http://www.beloit.edu/~classics/GospelOfMark/
          >
          >
          >Best wishes
          >    Wieland
          >       <><
          >------------------------------------------------
          >Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
          >mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
          >http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
          >Textcritical commentary:
          >http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          >






        • Dave Washburn
          Looking at the huge gaps around the purported word, it s not even a good forgery... ... -- Dave Washburn http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur No good. Hit on head.
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 13, 2004
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            Looking at the huge gaps around the purported word, it's not even a good
            forgery...

            On Wednesday 13 October 2004 08:22, Wieland Willker wrote:
            > >From the curiosities cabinet:
            >
            > Tetragrammaton in the Codex Washingtonensis?
            > Have a look at:
            > http://utenti.lycos.it/matteopierro/geova.htm
            >
            > It is the first page of the Gospel of Mark in Codex W 032. For the
            > original image compare:
            > http://www.beloit.edu/~classics/GospelOfMark/
            >
            >
            > Best wishes
            >     Wieland
            >        <><
            > ------------------------------------------------
            > Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
            > mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
            > http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
            > Textcritical commentary:
            > http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
            >
            >
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            "No good. Hit on head." -Gronk
          • J. Ted Blakley
            ... Wieland
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 13, 2004
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              >> I don't get the joke.
              >
              >It's no joke.
              >
              >> It's a fraud
              right?
              >
              >It's at least a "modified" image. I have not read the
              book, just seen
              >the cover.
              >
              >Best
              wishes
                  Wieland
                     <><

              I agree with Wieland's careful response to whether this is a fraud, especially given that it is on the cover of a book. It is very possible that the book argues that the tetragrammaton was in the original manuscript(s) and that the image on the front cover is an artists' rendering of what it would have looked like. Perhaps he argues that on this particular manuscript the tetragrammaton was erased and replaced with KY. But without knowing the argument of the book, it is impossible to determine whether the image on the cover is being presented as evidence for the thesis (and so fraudulent) or merely as an illustration accompanying the thesis.
                  Of course, the danger is that even if it is simply a modified image for the sake of illustrating what may have been present once, the image itself, detached from the argument of the book, could be used to argue that the tetragrammaton is in fact on an actual NT manuscript in existence and so deceive many people.
               
              Sincerely,
              Ted 
              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              J. Ted Blakley
               
              Ph.D. Candidate (New Testament)
              St Mary's College
              University of St Andrews
               
              jtb1@...
              -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 4:24 PM
              Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: Modified image of Codex Washingtonensis

              > I don't get the joke.

              It's no joke.

              > It's a fraud right?

              It's at least a "modified" image. I have not read the book, just seen
              the cover.

              Best wishes
                  Wieland
                     <><
              ------------------------------------------------
              Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
              mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
              http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
              Textcritical commentary:
              http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html



            • Jack Kilmon
              ... From: Wieland Willker To: Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 9:22 AM Subject:
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 13, 2004
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Wieland Willker" <willker@...-bremen.de>
                To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 9:22 AM
                Subject: [textualcriticism] Modified image of Codex Washingtonensis


                >
                > From the curiosities cabinet:
                > Tetragrammaton in the Codex Washingtonensis?
                > Have a look at:
                > http://utenti.lycos.it/matteopierro/geova.htm
                >
                > It is the first page of the Gospel of Mark in Codex W 032. For the
                > original image compare:
                > http://www.beloit.edu/~classics/GospelOfMark/
                >
                >
                > Best wishes
                > Wieland
                > <><

                What I find MOST interesting about W Mark is the insert after 16:14:

                "....and they excused themselves saying, "this age of lawlessness and
                unbelief is under Satan who by his unclean spirits does not allow the true
                power of God to be comprehended. Therefore now reveal thy righteousness."
                So they spoke to Christ and Christ addressed them thus: "The limit of the
                years of Satan's authority has been fulfilled, but other terrible things are
                drawing near, even to those sinners on whose behalf I was handed over to
                death, that they may turn to the truth and sin no more. In order that they
                may inherit the spiritual and incorruptible glory of righteousness in
                Heaven, go ye unto alll the world and preach the gospel to the whole
                creation......."

                Where did this come from? W from 1:1 to 5:31 is Western and from 5:31 to
                16:20 is Caesarean. I don't think this is some relic of an ur-Markus.

                Jack
              • Dan Bellapianta (MedOPS)
                From reading the comments on the book ( http://utenti.lycos.it/matteopierro/geova.htm), the question/argument presented is: Pierro also analyzes the causes
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 14, 2004
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                  From reading the comments on the book ( http://utenti.lycos.it/matteopierro/geova.htm), the question/argument presented is:

                  "Pierro also analyzes the causes which brought the substitution of Kurios (From kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, ) in the position of the name YHWH (tetragrammaton - the four Hebrew letters usually transliterated YHWH or JHVH that form a biblical proper name of God) which came in the early Christian Greek text."

                  "Il Pierro analizza anche le cause che portano alla sostituzione di Kyrios al posto del teonoma YHWH avvenuta nei primitivi testi cristiani in greco."

                  He also brings up the question of proper pronounciation of YHWH "Yahowa e non Yahwe".

                  ------------------------------------
                  Thank you for your kind help.

                  Dan Bellapianta
                  dan@...
                  www.medops.net

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: "J. Ted Blakley" <jtb1@...>
                  Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:34:57
                  To:<textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: Modified image of Codex Washingtonensis

                  >> I don't get the joke.
                  >
                  >It's no joke.
                  >
                  >> It's a fraud right?
                  >
                  >It's at least a "modified" image. I have not read the book, just seen
                  >the cover.
                  >
                  >Best wishes
                  Wieland
                  <><

                  I agree with Wieland's careful response to whether this is a fraud, especially given that it is on the cover of a book. It is very possible that the book argues that the tetragrammaton was in the original manuscript(s) and that the image on the front cover is an artists' rendering of what it would have looked like. Perhaps he argues that on this particular manuscript the tetragrammaton was erased and replaced with KY. But without knowing the argument of the book, it is impossible to determine whether the image on the cover is being presented as evidence for the thesis (and so fraudulent) or merely as an illustration accompanying the thesis.
                  Of course, the danger is that even if it is simply a modified image for the sake of illustrating what may have been present once, the image itself, detached from the argument of the book, could be used to argue that the tetragrammaton is in fact on an actual NT manuscript in existence and so deceive many people.

                  Sincerely,
                  Ted
                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  J. Ted Blakley

                  Ph.D. Candidate (New Testament)
                  St Mary's College
                  University of St Andrews

                  jtb1@...
                  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Wieland Willker
                  To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 4:24 PM
                  Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: Modified image of Codex Washingtonensis

                  > I don't get the joke.

                  It's no joke.

                  > It's a fraud right?

                  It's at least a "modified" image. I have not read the book, just seen
                  the cover.

                  Best wishes
                  Wieland
                  <><
                  ------------------------------------------------
                  Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                  mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
                  http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                  Textcritical commentary:
                  http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html




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                • Jack Kilmon
                  ... From: Dan Bellapianta (MedOPS) To: Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 2:05 AM Subject: Re:
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 14, 2004
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Dan Bellapianta (MedOPS)" <dan@...>
                    To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 2:05 AM
                    Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: Modified image of Codex Washingtonensis



                    >
                    > He also brings up the question of proper pronounciation of YHWH "Yahowa e
                    > non Yahwe".

                    Absolutely no way for him to know and since his "suggestion" is so close to
                    the nonsense word "Jehovah" probably quite wrong. It is more likely that
                    YHWH is the imperfect qal or hiph'il of hwh, "to be" meaning "He who exists"
                    hence yeHAwa would be a better guess.
                    ]
                    Jack
                  • Wieland Willker
                    ... Here a manipulated image of Codex W/032 occurs on the title page of a book from Matteo Pierro. Now, a friendly reader alerts me of a rebuttal and response
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 9, 2004
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                      Recently I wrote:
                      > From the curiosities cabinet:
                      > Tetragrammaton in the Codex Washingtonensis?
                      > Have a look at:
                      > http://utenti.lycos.it/matteopierro/geova.htm


                      Here a manipulated image of Codex W/032 occurs on the title page of a
                      book from Matteo Pierro. Now, a friendly reader alerts me of a rebuttal
                      and response to that book at:

                      http://home.europa.com/~lynnlund/itm2books.htm

                      The homepage BTW claims to be "the leading research web site dedicated
                      exclusively to the study of the Tetragrammaton."
                      It might therefore be helpful to those interested in a discussion with
                      Jehowah's witnesses.

                      Best wishes
                      Wieland
                      <><
                      ------------------------------------------------
                      Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                      mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
                      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                      Textcritical commentary:
                      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
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