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WS ENOMIZETO (Lk 3:23)

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  • Oun Kwon
    Dear Listers, Lk 3:23 usually reads ... WN UIOS WS ENOMIZETO IWSHF TOU HLI I like to know the source mss where the phrase WS ENOMIZETO comes right after IWSHF,
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 24, 2005
      Dear Listers,
       
      Lk 3:23 usually reads

      ... WN UIOS WS ENOMIZETO IWSHF TOU HLI

      I like to know the source mss where the phrase WS ENOMIZETO comes
      right after IWSHF, instead of its usual position.

      Appreciate your help very much.

      Oun Kwon
      Andover, MA
      USA

      kwonbooks@...
    • Peter Head
      ... I don t see that there is any such reading. Peter Peter M. Head, PhD Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament Tyndale House 36 Selwyn Gardens
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 25, 2005
        At 06:58 PM 10/24/05, you wrote:
        >Dear Listers,
        >
        >Lk 3:23 usually reads
        >
        >... WN UIOS WS ENOMIZETO IWSHF TOU HLI
        >
        >I like to know the source mss where the phrase WS ENOMIZETO comes
        >right after IWSHF, instead of its usual position.

        I don't see that there is any such reading.

        Peter

        Peter M. Head, PhD
        Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
        Tyndale House
        36 Selwyn Gardens Phone: (UK) 01223
        566607
        Cambridge, CB3 9BA Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
        http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm
      • Oun Kwon
        The presence of some mss in this regard was suggested in http://www.bahaullah.net/Baha_i_Links/jesus-genealogy.htm and I am curious about nailing down the
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 26, 2005
          The presence of some mss in this regard was suggested in
           
          http://www.bahaullah.net/Baha_i_Links/jesus-genealogy.htm

          and I am curious about nailing down the specific mss they mentioned. I don't think whether there are such alternative mss would affect their very convincing explanation of the difference in genealogies of Lk and Mt.
           
          Thank,
           
          Oun Kwon.
           
           Peter Head <pmh15@...> wrote:
          At 06:58 PM 10/24/05, you wrote:
          >Dear Listers,
          >
          >Lk 3:23 usually reads
          >
          >... WN UIOS WS ENOMIZETO IWSHF TOU HLI
          >
          >I like to know the source mss where the phrase WS ENOMIZETO comes
          >right after IWSHF, instead of its usual position.

          I don't see that there is any such reading.

          Peter

          Peter M. Head, PhD
          Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
          Tyndale House
          36 Selwyn Gardens                                       Phone: (UK) 01223
          566607
          Cambridge, CB3 9BA                                      Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
          http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm
        • Daniel Buck
          ... And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli... (KJV) According to A.R.C.
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 26, 2005
            Here's the quote:
            ---------------------
            And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age,
            being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was
            the son of Heli... (KJV)

            According to A.R.C. Leaney ("A Commentary on the Gospel According to
            St. Luke,"1966), "(as was supposed)" was moved from its original
            position _behind_ Joseph's name to _precede_ it in the text. This
            move served to uphold the false doctrine that Jesus is not Joseph's
            son. In its original position, "(as was supposed)" made it clear
            that Joseph was "supposed" to be the son of Heli.

            According to the _Pocket Interlinear New Testament_ (1988), the
            Greek phrase for "as was supposed" is "hos nomizo." "Hos nomizo" was
            poorly translated to "as was supposed." "Hos nomizo," in truth,
            means "according to the law of Moses" (_Strong's Concordance_,
            1980). In other words, Luke 3:23 states Jesus' genealogy through
            Joseph comes from Heli _according to the law of Moses_, because
            Joseph was the son of Heli according to a law written in the Torah:
            --------------------------------
            Daniel Buck's reply:

            First of all, the GNT is misquoted. That alone should discredit the
            source.

            Secondly, no GREEK mss evidence is cited.

            Third, the Greek text actually supports the following rendering as
            well as any:

            "Jesus . . . being the son, (supposedly of Joseph) of Eli"

            It is, however, a notion of modern times that the Lucan genealogy is
            Mary's. Given Luke's unique emphasis on women and their special
            place in God's plan, it is surprising that no mention of this notion
            survived early Christianity.

            The Bahai argument is inconsistent, though, in claiming both that
            Jews only reckoned genealogy by the male line, then in pointing out
            that Mary & Elizabeth couldn't be cousins if Mary was of the house
            of David and Elizabeth of the house of Aaron. Obviously they could,
            if they were cognate cousins. Aaron himself married a daughter of
            Judah, and it didn't make his sons any less of his house or any more
            of Judah's.

            Oun Kwon originally wrote:
            >
            > The presence of some mss in this regard was suggested in
            >
            > http://www.bahaullah.net/Baha_i_Links/jesus-genealogy.htm

            > >
            > >Lk 3:23 usually reads
            > >
            > >... WN UIOS WS ENOMIZETO IWSHF TOU HLI
            > >
            > >I like to know the source mss where the phrase WS ENOMIZETO comes
            > >right after IWSHF, instead of its usual position.

            -----------------------------------------------
            > Peter Head's observation:
            >
            > I don't see that there is any such reading.
          • Peter Head
            It is great that some web page mentions manuscripts. Fantastic. As far as I can see in the resources available (namely Swanson and the IGNTP Luke) there is no
            Message 5 of 8 , Oct 27, 2005
              It is great that some web page mentions manuscripts. Fantastic. As far as I
              can see in the resources available (namely Swanson and the IGNTP Luke)
              there is no such reading in the manuscripts.

              So, either this web page knows of manuscripts that neither Swanson, the
              IGNTP Luke and NA doesn't.; OR I am misreading the evidence; OR this web
              page is either wrong or being wrongly understood.

              My general rule is that web pages are wrong on any matter of dispute.

              My second rule is that readers of web pages can be wrong.

              After that I'd bet on my being wrong.

              I've checked the evidence. Go thou and do likewise.

              Pete

              At 05:40 PM 10/26/05, you wrote:
              >The presence of some mss in this regard was suggested in
              >
              ><http://www.bahaullah.net/Baha_i_Links/jesus-genealogy.htm>http://www.bahaullah.net/Baha_i_Links/jesus-genealogy.htm
              >
              >and I am curious about nailing down the specific mss they mentioned. I
              >don't think whether there are such alternative mss would affect their very
              >convincing explanation of the difference in genealogies of Lk and Mt.
              >
              >Thank,
              >
              >Oun Kwon.
              >
              > Peter Head <pmh15@...> wrote:
              >At 06:58 PM 10/24/05, you wrote:
              > >Dear Listers,
              > >
              > >Lk 3:23 usually reads
              > >
              > >... WN UIOS WS ENOMIZETO IWSHF TOU HLI
              > >
              > >I like to know the source mss where the phrase WS ENOMIZETO comes
              > >right after IWSHF, instead of its usual position.
              >
              >I don't see that there is any such reading.
              >
              >Peter
              >
              >Peter M. Head, PhD
              >Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
              >Tyndale House
              >36 Selwyn Gardens Phone: (UK) 01223
              >566607
              >Cambridge, CB3 9BA Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
              ><http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm>http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm
              >
              >
              >
              >
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              Peter M. Head, PhD
              Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
              Tyndale House
              36 Selwyn Gardens Phone: (UK) 01223
              566607
              Cambridge, CB3 9BA Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
              http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm
            • Jan Krans
              ... Nice piece of advice, Pete. So let us take a look at the secondary evidence as well. Oun Kwon mentioned a website:
              Message 6 of 8 , Oct 27, 2005
                Peter Head wrote:

                > It is great that some web page mentions manuscripts. Fantastic. As far
                > as I can see in the resources available (namely Swanson and the IGNTP
                > Luke)
                > there is no such reading in the manuscripts.
                >
                > So, either this web page knows of manuscripts that neither Swanson, the
                > IGNTP Luke and NA doesn't.; OR I am misreading the evidence; OR this web
                > page is either wrong or being wrongly understood.
                >
                > My general rule is that web pages are wrong on any matter of dispute.
                > My second rule is that readers of web pages can be wrong.
                > After that I'd bet on my being wrong.
                >
                > I've checked the evidence. Go thou and do likewise.
                >
                > Pete

                Nice piece of advice, Pete. So let us take a look at the "secondary
                evidence" as well.

                Oun Kwon mentioned a website:
                http://www.bahaullah.net/Baha_i_Links/jesus-genealogy.htm and spoke about
                "their very convincing explanation of the difference in genealogies of Lk
                and Mt".

                But let me quote from that web page: "According to A.R.C. Leaney ("A
                Commentary on the Gospel According to St. Luke,"1966), "(as was supposed)"
                was moved from its original position _behind_ Joseph's name to _precede_
                it in the text. This move served to uphold the false doctrine that Jesus
                is not Joseph's son. In its original position, "(as was supposed)" made it
                clear that Joseph was "supposed" to be the son of Heli."

                On the basis of this information, Oun Kwon supposes that there are
                manuscripts with WS ENOMIZETO after IWSHF instead of before it (or even
                before UIOS). However it may very well be an example of "how to recognise
                a conjecture when you see one".

                Leaney, apparently, used the fact that the position of WS ENOMIZETO varies
                in the manuscripts between just before IWSHF and between WN and IWSHF as
                an argument to propose a conjectural emendation, according to which the
                words stood originally somewhere else, to wit after the word IWSHF.

                This is an interesting idea in itself, but it is problematic not only for
                its being no more than a conjecture. It is simply part of a long
                exegetical tradition, with many branches and variations, in which efforts
                are made to reconcile the conflicting genealogies of Matthew and Luke. The
                sheer amount of energy spent on these efforts shows - to me that is - that
                there is something wrong in the entreprise itself.

                The one who made the conjecture, however, is not even Leaney, as it seems.
                I was not able to check Leaney's 1966 commentary, but I consulted an
                earlier edition (of 1958). There he mentions the fact that the position of
                WS ENOMIZETO varies in the manuscripts (without giving any further
                information), but he does so in order to affirm that this variation cannot
                be used as an argument for the idea that the original text did not contain
                the words WS ENOMIZETO. Thus Leaney is opposed to yet another
                exegetical/conjectural tradition, a quite different one this time,
                according to which the concept of the virginal birth was somewhat less
                prominent in the original text of Luke's gospel than in its later textual
                tradition. One would tend to agree with Leaney: such a conjecture is
                interesting but highly problematic.

                These various pieces of information lead me to the following
                reconstruction, for what it is worth (in view of my lack of sources as
                well as time):
                1. someone proposed the conjecture to read Luke 3:23 without WS ENOMIZETO
                and to regard its inclusion as a case of orthodox corruption;
                2. Leaney mentioned this idea in his commentary, but only to dismiss it
                immediately. In passing, he mentioned the varying position of WS
                ENOMIZETO, without being specific;
                3. someone misunderstood (or mis-used) Leaney's comments and changed them
                into a different conjecture, according to which WS ENOMIZETO refers to
                Joseph being Eli's son "as was thought";
                4. this idea became part of a website which attempts - how interesting -
                to reconcile the genealogies of Matthew and Luke;
                5. someone (Oun Kwon) mistook the reference on this website to an
                "original position" as a reference to manuscript attestation;
                6. various people looked - in vain - for such manuscript attestation;
                7. ... etc.

                Finally, what is amusing - if I am correct somehow - is step 3 itself, for
                it combines a heterodox corruption with an orthodox one: on the one hand,
                by removing WS ENOMIZETO from where it stands in the manuscripts, the text
                is robbed of an indirect reference to the virginal birth; on the other
                hand, a high view of scriptural consistency is upheld by breaking the link
                between Joseph and Eli.

                Conclusion: Pete is right (as always), Oun Kwon did not recognise the
                conjecture, the website referred to is plain wrong, and everything else is
                interesting but wrong nevertheless, except Leaney perhaps. Maybe someone
                could check Leaney's 1966 edition in order to verify whether at least step
                2 of my reconstruction is more or less correct.

                Greetings,
                Jan Krans
                Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam
              • Kent Clarke
                Well stated Peter!!! Can I quote you for the ³betterment² of my students?? Kent ... Re: [textualcriticism] WS ENOMIZETO (Lk 3:23) Well stated Peter!!! Can I
                Message 7 of 8 , Oct 28, 2005
                  Re: [textualcriticism] WS ENOMIZETO (Lk 3:23) Well stated Peter!!! Can I quote you for the “betterment” of my students??

                  Kent


                  On 10/27/05 4:11 AM, "Peter Head" <pmh15@...> wrote:

                  It is great that some web page mentions manuscripts. Fantastic. As far as I
                  can see in the resources available (namely Swanson and the IGNTP Luke)
                  there is no such reading in the manuscripts.

                  So, either this web page knows of manuscripts that neither Swanson, the
                  IGNTP Luke and NA doesn't.; OR I am misreading the evidence; OR this web
                  page is either wrong or being wrongly understood.

                  My general rule is that web pages are wrong on any matter of dispute.

                  My second rule is that readers of web pages can be wrong.

                  After that I'd bet on my being wrong.

                  I've checked the evidence. Go thou and do likewise.

                  Pete

                  At 05:40 PM 10/26/05, you wrote:
                  >The presence of some mss in this regard was suggested in
                  >
                  >MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "www.bahaullah.net" claiming to be <http://www.bahaullah.net/Baha_i_Links/jesus-genealogy.htm>http://www.bahaullah.net/Baha_i_Links/jesus-genealogy.htm
                  >
                  >and I am curious about nailing down the specific mss they mentioned. I
                  >don't think whether there are such alternative mss would affect their very
                  >convincing explanation of the difference in genealogies of Lk and Mt.
                  >
                  >Thank,
                  >
                  >Oun Kwon.
                  >
                  >  Peter Head <pmh15@...> wrote:
                  >At 06:58 PM 10/24/05, you wrote:
                  > >Dear Listers,
                  > >
                  > >Lk 3:23 usually reads
                  > >
                  > >... WN UIOS WS ENOMIZETO IWSHF TOU HLI
                  > >
                  > >I like to know the source mss where the phrase WS ENOMIZETO comes
                  > >right after IWSHF, instead of its usual position.
                  >
                  >I don't see that there is any such reading.
                  >
                  >Peter
                  >
                  >Peter M. Head, PhD
                  >Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                  >Tyndale House
                  >36 Selwyn Gardens                                       Phone: (UK) 01223
                  >566607
                  >Cambridge, CB3 9BA                                      Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
                  ><http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm>http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >SPONSORED LINKS
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                  Peter M. Head, PhD
                  Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                  Tyndale House
                  36 Selwyn Gardens                                       Phone: (UK) 01223
                  566607
                  Cambridge, CB3 9BA                                      Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
                  http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm




                   
                   

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                • Oun Kwon
                  Thanks for replies to my inquiry. Thanks Jan, As you pointed out (list #5) it is me who mistook the reference when quoting the Bahai webpage. I should have
                  Message 8 of 8 , Oct 29, 2005

                    Thanks for replies to my inquiry.

                     

                    Thanks Jan,

                     

                    As you pointed out (list #5) it is me who mistook the reference when quoting the Bahai webpage. I should have given careful attention to their wording to reflect what they said correctly.

                     

                    My apology for misquoting. 

                     

                    Oun Kwon.

                     

                    P.S.

                     

                    By the way, their explanation that the geology in Lk cannot be of Mary's line is plausible to me.  (A catholic commentary in Korean never mentioned this possiblity of Mary's line; however, it did not offer any explanation of the difference.

                     

                    And the very common rendering of the word WS ENOMIZETO 'as supposed of' seems, by it-self, from much of conjecture than more literal 'according to law' which is law of levirate.

                     



                    Jan Krans <jlhkrans@...> wrote:

                     
                    Oun Kwon mentioned a website:
                    http://www.bahaullah.net/Baha_i_Links/jesus-genealogy.htm and spoke about
                    "their very convincing explanation of the difference in genealogies of Lk
                    and Mt".

                    But let me quote from that web page: "According to A.R.C. Leaney ("A
                    Commentary on the Gospel According to St. Luke,"1966), "(as was supposed)"
                    was moved from its original position _behind_ Joseph's name to _precede_
                    it in the text. This move served to uphold the false doctrine that Jesus
                    is not Joseph's son. In its original position, "(as was supposed)" made it
                    clear that Joseph was "supposed" to be the son of Heli."

                    On the basis of this information, Oun Kwon supposes that there are
                    manuscripts with WS ENOMIZETO after IWSHF instead of before it (or even
                    before UIOS). However it may very well be an example of "how to recognise
                    a conjecture when you see one".

                    Leaney, apparently, used the fact that the position of WS ENOMIZETO varies
                    in the manuscripts between just before IWSHF and between WN and IWSHF as
                    an argument to propose a conjectural emendation, according to which the
                    words stood originally somewhere else, to wit after the word IWSHF.

                    This is an interesting idea in itself, but it is problematic not only for
                    its being no more than a conjecture. It is simply part of a long
                    exegetical tradition, with many branches and variations, in which efforts
                    are made to reconcile the conflicting genealogies of Matthew and Luke. The
                    sheer amount of energy spent on these efforts shows - to me that is - that
                    there is something wrong in the entreprise itself.

                    The one who made the conjecture, however, is not even Leaney, as it seems.
                    I was not able to check Leaney's 1966 commentary, but I consulted an
                    earlier edition (of 1958). There he mentions the fact that the position of
                    WS ENOMIZETO varies in the manuscripts (without giving any further
                    information), but he does so in order to affirm that this variation cannot
                    be used as an argument for the idea that the original text did not contain
                    the words WS ENOMIZETO. Thus Leaney is opposed to yet another
                    exegetical/conjectural tradition, a quite different one this time,
                    according to which the concept of the virginal birth was somewhat less
                    prominent in the original text of Luke's gospel than in its later textual
                    tradition. One would tend to agree with Leaney: such a conjecture is
                    interesting but highly problematic.

                    These various pieces of information lead me to the following
                    reconstruction, for what it is worth (in view of my lack of sources as
                    well as time):
                    1. someone proposed the conjecture to read Luke 3:23 without WS ENOMIZETO
                    and to regard its inclusion as a case of orthodox corruption;
                    2. Leaney mentioned this idea in his commentary, but only to dismiss it
                    immediately. In passing, he mentioned the varying position of WS
                    ENOMIZETO, without being specific;
                    3. someone misunderstood (or mis-used) Leaney's comments and changed them
                    into a different conjecture, according to which WS ENOMIZETO refers to
                    Joseph being Eli's son "as was thought";
                    4. this idea became part of a website which attempts - how interesting -
                    to reconcile the genealogies of Matthew and Luke;
                    5. someone (Oun Kwon) mistook the reference on this website to an
                    "original position" as a reference to manuscript attestation;
                    6. various people looked - in vain - for such manuscript attestation;
                    7. ... etc.

                    Finally, what is amusing - if I am correct somehow - is step 3 itself, for
                    it combines a heterodox corruption with an orthodox one: on the one hand,
                    by removing WS ENOMIZETO from where it stands in the manuscripts, the text
                    is robbed of an indirect reference to the virginal birth; on the other
                    hand, a high view of scriptural consistency is upheld by breaking the link
                    between Joseph and Eli.

                    Conclusion: Pete is right (as always), Oun Kwon did not recognise the
                    conjecture, the website referred to is plain wrong, and everything else is
                    interesting but wrong nevertheless, except Leaney perhaps. Maybe someone
                    could check Leaney's 1966 edition in order to verify whether at least step
                    2 of my reconstruction is more or less correct.

                    Greetings,
                    Jan Krans
                    Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam

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