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Re: time-reversed" current flow definition please...

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  • harvey norris
    ... In some situations regarding the study of polar neon discharges, the reverse time effect seems to be scope recorded. I do not know enough about scopes to
    Message 1 of 3 , Jun 19, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      --- purevoltage2002 <family@...>
      wrote:
      > > How do you define a "time-reversed" current flow ?
      > > How do you measure it ?
      > >
      > > Regards, Stefan.

      In some situations regarding the study of polar neon
      discharges, the reverse time effect seems to be scope
      recorded. I do not know enough about scopes to
      determine whether this is merely brought on a a
      delusion made by the scope itself, however the
      information the scope reveals is that an rf decay
      appears as if it were moving backwards in time. This
      is more than likely such a confusing subject that most
      folks will have positively no idea what I am talking
      about: so I will digress some.

      A polar neon discharge as I have called it is the
      effect of lighting a neon from one (resonant) voltage
      source only, and giving the other end of the neon a
      plate area, thus this is strictly a one wire delivery
      of electrical impulses. The metallic plate area, or
      even a human body can serve as a reservoir of
      electrons that the neon can borrow and return to mimic
      the conventional two wire delivery. Because this
      represents only one plate of capacity, we can call it
      a polar capacity. Here is a jpeg of a neon being
      excited in this manner where the one end of the neon
      is excited by a resonant voltage source, and the neon
      will discharge up to the point where my fingers touch
      the bulb.

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/Flux%20Capacitor/Dsc00233.jpg

      A plate area of aluminum foil can also be used as that
      one ended reservoir of free electrons. In this
      scenario the scope can be brought into the picture to
      study the changing electric field above that plate
      area. This is done by placing a scope connected
      inductor over that plate area, and turning up the
      sweep rate until the frequency of the rf decay that
      occurs can be seen. One would ascertain that when this
      is done we should have determined "how fast" that
      electrical field is vibrating in the borrowing and
      returning of free electrons by the neon by observing
      the frequency of that rf decay. This is then where the
      specifics of negative time seem to come into the
      picture. The first issue that presents itself as a
      paradox is that we "think" we are measuring a changing
      electric field in space, with the time period of a
      scope sweep as that reference point to determine "how
      fast" that vibration is taking place. What confounds
      that reasoning however is that each different style
      inductor can record a different vibration time period
      of rf decay, from the same space: and we are then
      forced to conclude that we are not actually measuring
      the "true vibration in space" that is occuring, but
      instead we are measuring vibrations of time that the
      inductor responds to. We end up concluding that the
      inductors themselves are merely vibrating at their own
      specific "natural resonant frequency", and the actual
      vibration itself with regard to time itself then is
      unmeasurable. This is not entirely true however since
      at the lowest sweep rates of investigation using a 60
      hz exciting signal, by turning the scope to 2 ms per
      division showing 20 ms of time per sweep, slightly
      beyond the 16.6 ms time for a
      60 hz cycle. In that situation with a variac control
      to regulate the voltage to the neon from the resonant
      voltage rise process, we find that when the neon first
      fires at its lowest possible voltage to enable that
      firing, two rf bursts per cycle occur. This would be
      termed 120 rf bursts per second,(BPS), since the
      frequency of 60 hz is actually 120 polarity charges
      per second. So we see that every rf burst is occuring
      in coordination with every change in AC input
      polarity. Thus we can know the amount of rf bursts per
      time period with relation to the input frequency, but
      we cannot specifically know what the frequency of that
      rf burst itself is, since every different inductor
      shows a different frequency in correlation with that
      rf burst, by turning up the sweep rate to see that
      frequency.
      Thus we can find that number of rf bursts per AC
      cycle, but we cannot specifically know the frequency
      of that rf burst, again since various recieving
      instruments recording that oscillation all give
      different answers as to the vibration itself. Since
      this is true we then have the apparent paradox of a
      process that might be simultaneously broadcasting many
      different frequencies simultaneously, or what
      Lakhovsky termed Mutiple Wave Oscillations,(MWO).
      Lakhovsky specifically thought that perhaps if the rf
      emmitor itself was composed of various lengths of
      antennaes, this would serve the purpose of emmitting a
      wide range of frequencies, but we find that the neon
      polar discharge process itself accomplishes the same
      phenomenon. This also ties in with the work of Priore
      in more recent times, where he has used neon discharge
      to treat medical body conditions. The idea again is to
      emit a frequency that might be the same frequency as
      the cells natural resonant frequency, thus effecting a
      stimulation for rapid cellular repair. I believe this
      is valid, as I myself have used this polar neon
      process to treat some episodes of gout that have beset
      me in the past. It is simple to say that the polar
      neon process causes every inductor to ring at its own
      natural resonant frequency, and this should also apply
      to cells themself. One can physically touch this neon
      ending plate and feel absolutely no shock, unless
      perhaps the body has a connection to ground, such as a
      cement floor.

      Sorry to be so long winded here, but this is a complex
      subject. Next we come to the phenomenon of operating a
      neon in the negative resistance region. When the neon
      first fires at the impressed variac voltage, we find
      that the voltage can be reduced from that firing
      voltage, but the neon will still display a discharge.
      Addtionally the amount of EM being recorded from the
      plate INCREASES instead of DECREASING, when viewing
      the phenomenon at higher sweep rates. Investigating
      this further we find at the source frequency sweeps of
      the scope the reason for extra EM emmision is shown by
      the fact that lowering the input voltage has caused an
      extra rf burst per cycle to occur, thus initially we
      are of the opinion that we are now operating at 180
      BPS. Unbeleivably however this also is not entirely
      true because that extra rf burst is actually rapidly
      sliding down the time line, in a reverse direction to
      the left, and if we further turn down the scope sweep
      to show more then one cycle per sweep, we also find
      that the entire sweep will usually only contain one of
      these extra rf bursts. Additionally that rf burst will
      appear as if it were a signal occuring in reverse
      time. This can be shown by comparing the ordinary rf
      burst and the reverse time rf burst in a single sweep
      as shown in
      MWO: 5 mv/div ;0.5m /div in stable triggered form
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/BRMA/DSC00138.JPG

      The rf burst to the left is what is conventaionally
      seen, the one on the right is one which might be
      construed as a reverse time signature rf decay, and as
      we can see it shows itself as something that would
      appear as an event moving backwards in time.
      MWO: 5 mv/div ;0.5m /div non-triggered showing
      opposite rf decays in opposite directions of high
      drift rate.
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/BRMA/DSC00142.JPG

      I am by no means an expert on what this reverse time
      business means, but at least here SOME evidence for
      its existance can be shown in these scope sweeps.
      Touching the body to a neon polar capacity plate will
      also show these reverse time signatures abundantly,
      even to the point where perfect mirror image sweeps
      are produced at higher frequencies than noted here,
      leading to the wondering whether the negentropic body
      processes themselves can be increased due to the
      bodily absorbtion of these signals, explaining
      somewhat how a reversed time signal can aid in
      cellular regeneration. As anyone who has sudied rf
      decays with an oscilloscope will note, the existance
      of these backwards looking rf decays are normally
      appearing as a spike with a oscillation dying down
      over time, and signals that display the opposite
      effect are NOT the norm at all! I hope I have given
      some indication and evidence that this effect actually
      DOES occur, and how and why it can be interpreted as a
      reverse time effect. It may not be what others
      consider to be what a reverse time signal consists of,
      but again at least some kind of evidence for its
      existance can be shown. Others may feel that this
      subject borders on quackery, but we can only present
      the evidence and make hypotheses as to what that
      causitive agent is. Dont want to spend a lot of time
      on what might be considered quackery, so I did not
      pursue this matter in depth much, but I have made four
      past entries on the subject, where more of these
      reverse time signals can be seen, and how those
      interpretations have been made. These are in the
      following posts;
      Scoping of BRS polar capacity neon discharge
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/message/297
      Reverse time RF decays shown with neon discharge in
      pre- firing voltage.
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/message/303
      180 BPS Rate a delusion/ the Relativity of MWO
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/message/318
      180 BPS rates explored at 2ms/div
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/message/322

      Sincerely Harvey D Norris




      =====
      Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
      http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
    • Michael Best
      Is it possible that the time reversed phenomena is an artifact of the scopes display of the negative resistance behavior of neon lamps? Gas-discharge
      Message 2 of 3 , Jun 20, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        Is it possible that the "time reversed" phenomena is an artifact of the 'scopes display of the negative resistance behavior of neon lamps?  Gas-discharge lamps, like tunnel diodes, exhibit a negative slope in their EI curves over a portion of the domain.  This is what allows them to be used as oscillators when connected to a RC circuit.
         
        Mike
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 1:00 PM
        Subject: [teslafy] Re: time-reversed" current flow definition please...


        --- purevoltage2002 <family@...>
        wrote:
        > > How do you define a "time-reversed" current flow ?
        > > How do you measure it ?
        > >
        > > Regards, Stefan.

        In some situations regarding the study of polar neon
        discharges, the reverse time effect seems to be scope
        recorded.  I do not know enough about scopes to
        determine whether this is merely brought on a a
        delusion made by the scope itself, however the
        information the scope reveals is that an rf decay
        appears as if it were moving backwards in time.  This
        is more than likely such a confusing subject that most
        folks will have positively no idea what I am talking
        about: so I will digress some.

        A polar neon discharge as I have called it is the
        effect of lighting a neon from one (resonant) voltage
        source only, and giving the other end of the neon a
        plate area, thus this is strictly a one wire delivery
        of electrical impulses. The metallic plate area, or
        even a human body can serve as a reservoir of
        electrons that the neon can borrow and return to mimic
        the conventional two wire delivery.  Because this
        represents only one plate of capacity, we can call it
        a polar capacity. Here is a jpeg of a neon being
        excited in this manner where the one end of the neon
        is excited by a resonant voltage source, and the neon
        will discharge up to the point where my fingers touch
        the bulb.

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/Flux%20Capacitor/Dsc00233.jpg

        A plate area of aluminum foil can also be used as that
        one ended reservoir of free electrons. In this
        scenario the scope can be brought into the picture to
        study the changing electric field above that plate
        area. This is done by placing a scope connected
        inductor over that plate area, and turning up the
        sweep rate until the frequency of the rf decay that
        occurs can be seen. One would ascertain that when this
        is done we  should have determined "how fast" that
        electrical field is vibrating  in the borrowing and
        returning of free electrons by the neon by observing
        the frequency of that rf decay. This is then where the
        specifics of negative time seem to come into the
        picture. The first issue that presents itself as a
        paradox is that we "think" we are measuring a changing
        electric field in space, with the time period of a
        scope sweep as that reference point to determine "how
        fast" that vibration is taking place. What confounds
        that reasoning however is that each different style
        inductor can record a different vibration time period
        of rf decay, from the same space: and we are then
        forced to conclude that we are not actually measuring
        the "true vibration in space" that is occuring, but
        instead we are measuring vibrations of time that the
        inductor responds to.  We end up concluding that the
        inductors themselves are merely vibrating at their own
        specific "natural resonant frequency", and the  actual
        vibration itself with regard to time itself then is
        unmeasurable. This is not entirely true however since
        at the lowest sweep rates  of investigation using a 60
        hz exciting signal, by turning  the scope to 2 ms per
        division showing 20 ms of time per sweep, slightly
        beyond the 16.6 ms time for a
        60 hz cycle. In that situation with a variac control
        to regulate the voltage to the neon from the resonant
        voltage rise process, we find that when the neon first
        fires at its lowest possible voltage to enable that
        firing, two rf bursts per cycle occur. This would be
        termed 120  rf bursts per second,(BPS), since the
        frequency of 60 hz is actually 120 polarity charges
        per second. So we see that every rf burst is occuring
        in coordination with every change in AC input
        polarity. Thus we can know the amount of rf bursts per
        time period with relation to the input frequency, but
        we cannot specifically know what the frequency of that
        rf burst itself is, since every different inductor
        shows a different frequency in correlation with that
        rf burst, by turning up the sweep rate to see that
        frequency.
        Thus we can find that  number of rf bursts per AC
        cycle, but we cannot specifically know the frequency
        of that rf burst, again since various recieving
        instruments recording that oscillation all give
        different answers as to the vibration itself. Since
        this is true we then have the apparent paradox of a
        process that might be simultaneously broadcasting many
        different frequencies simultaneously, or what
        Lakhovsky termed Mutiple Wave Oscillations,(MWO).
        Lakhovsky specifically thought that perhaps if the rf
        emmitor itself was composed of various lengths of
        antennaes, this would serve the purpose of emmitting a
        wide range of frequencies, but we find that the neon
        polar discharge process itself accomplishes the same
        phenomenon.  This also ties in with the work of Priore
        in more recent times, where he has used neon discharge
        to treat medical body conditions. The idea again is to
        emit a frequency that might be the same frequency as
        the cells natural resonant frequency, thus effecting a
        stimulation for rapid cellular repair. I believe this
        is valid, as I myself have used this polar neon
        process to treat some episodes of gout that have beset
        me in the past. It is simple to say that the polar
        neon process causes every inductor to ring at its own
        natural resonant frequency, and this should also apply
        to cells themself.  One can physically touch this neon
        ending plate and feel absolutely no shock, unless
        perhaps the body has a connection to ground, such as a
        cement floor.

        Sorry to be so long winded here, but this is a complex
        subject. Next we come to the phenomenon of operating a
        neon in the negative resistance region. When the neon
        first fires at the impressed  variac voltage, we find
        that the voltage can be reduced from that firing
        voltage, but the neon will still display a discharge.
        Addtionally the amount of EM being recorded from the
        plate INCREASES instead of DECREASING, when viewing
        the phenomenon at higher sweep rates. Investigating
        this further we find at the source frequency sweeps of
        the scope the reason for extra EM emmision is shown by
        the fact that lowering the input voltage has caused an
        extra rf burst per cycle to occur, thus initially we
        are of the opinion that we are now operating at 180
        BPS. Unbeleivably however this also is not entirely
        true because that extra rf burst is actually rapidly
        sliding down the time line, in a reverse direction to
        the left, and if we further turn down the scope sweep
        to show more then one cycle per sweep, we also find
        that the entire sweep will usually only contain one of
        these extra rf bursts. Additionally that rf burst will
        appear as if it were a signal occuring in reverse
        time. This can be shown by comparing the ordinary rf
        burst and the reverse time rf burst in a single sweep
        as shown in
        MWO: 5 mv/div ;0.5m /div in stable triggered form
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/BRMA/DSC00138.JPG

        The rf burst to the left is what is conventaionally
        seen, the one on the right is one which might be
        construed as a reverse time signature rf decay, and as
        we can see it shows itself as something that would
        appear as an event moving backwards in time.
        MWO: 5 mv/div ;0.5m /div non-triggered showing
        opposite rf decays in opposite directions of high
        drift rate.
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/BRMA/DSC00142.JPG

        I am by no means an expert on what this reverse time
        business means, but at least here SOME evidence for
        its existance can be shown in these scope sweeps.
        Touching the body to a neon polar capacity plate will
        also show these reverse time signatures abundantly,
        even to the point where perfect mirror image sweeps
        are produced at higher frequencies than noted here,
        leading to the wondering whether the negentropic body
        processes themselves can be increased due to the
        bodily absorbtion of these signals, explaining
        somewhat how a reversed time signal can aid in
        cellular regeneration. As anyone who has sudied rf
        decays with an oscilloscope will note, the existance
        of these backwards looking rf decays are normally
        appearing as a spike with a oscillation dying down
        over time, and signals that display the opposite
        effect are NOT the norm at all!  I hope I have given
        some indication and evidence that this effect actually
        DOES occur, and how and why it can be interpreted as a
        reverse time effect. It may not be what others
        consider to be what a reverse time signal consists of,
        but again at least some kind of evidence for its
        existance can be shown. Others may feel that this
        subject borders on quackery, but we can only present
        the evidence and make hypotheses as to what that
        causitive agent is. Dont want to spend a lot of time
        on what might be considered quackery, so I did not
        pursue this matter in depth much, but I have made four
        past entries on the subject, where more of these
        reverse time signals can be seen, and how those
        interpretations have been  made. These are in the
        following posts;
        Scoping of BRS polar capacity neon discharge
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/message/297
        Reverse time RF decays shown with neon discharge in
        pre- firing voltage.
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/message/303
        180 BPS Rate a delusion/ the Relativity of MWO
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/message/318
        180 BPS rates explored at 2ms/div
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/message/322

        Sincerely Harvey D Norris




        =====
        Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

        __________________________________________________
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        Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
        http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

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      • harvey norris
        ... Yes I would certainly agree with that idea, where the reverse decay scope signatures occur when the voltage is lowered to levels below that needed to
        Message 3 of 3 , Jun 20, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          --- Michael Best <mbest@...> wrote:
          > Is it possible that the "time reversed" phenomena is
          > an artifact of the 'scopes display of the negative
          > resistance behavior of neon lamps? Gas-discharge
          > lamps, like tunnel diodes, exhibit a negative slope
          > in their EI curves over a portion of the domain.
          > This is what allows them to be used as oscillators
          > when connected to a RC circuit.
          Yes I would certainly agree with that idea, where the
          reverse decay scope signatures occur when the voltage
          is lowered to levels below that needed to initially
          accomplish the ionization. HDN

          =====
          Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
          http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
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