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Re: [Tekumel] Braunstein meets the Petal Throne - June 8th, 2013

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  • Joseph M. Saul
    I d love to see Chirine do this at a UCon.
    Message 1 of 12 , May 31, 2013
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      I'd love to see Chirine do this at a UCon.


      On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 3:42 PM, George <worldsmith@...> wrote:
       

      Apparently Chirine Ba Kal is running a Very Old School Tekumel game in Minneapolis next week. More information here:
      http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?688557-Braunstein-meets-the-Petal-Throne-June-8th-2013

      Note that the original location has changed (see post near the bottom of the thread). You'll have to register with the RPGNet site to send him a message and find out where it is. He's also a member of this group though, so you could also try to send him an email through this site. Just go to the Members page
      http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/tekumel/members
      and search for chirine, then use the "Send Message" link on the page you get.

      regards,

      George

      ps if you're a little unclear on what a "Braunstein" is (I was), here's some explanation:
      http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/104/braunstein-the-roots-of-roleplaying-games/


    • Chirine
      ... Maybe he is... :) Right! I m still trying to get caught up; it s been an exciting week, and for a while I thought I was going to have to rent a tent to
      Message 2 of 12 , May 31, 2013
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        --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, "George" <worldsmith@...> wrote:
        >
        > Apparently Chirine Ba Kal is running a Very Old School Tekumel game in Minneapolis next week. More information here:
        > http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?688557-Braunstein-meets-the-Petal-Throne-June-8th-2013
        >
        > Note that the original location has changed (see post near the bottom of the thread). You'll have to register with the RPGNet site to send him a message and find out where it is. He's also a member of this group though, so you could also try to send him an email through this site. Just go to the Members page
        > http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/tekumel/members
        > and search for chirine, then use the "Send Message" link on the page you get.
        >
        > regards,
        >
        > George
        >
        > ps if you're a little unclear on what a "Braunstein" is (I was), here's some explanation:
        > http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/104/braunstein-the-roots-of-roleplaying-games/
        >

        Maybe he is... :)

        Right!

        I'm still trying to get caught up; it's been an exciting week, and for a while I thought I was going to have to rent a tent to make sure that this game happened. However, the folks at the Fantasy Flight Games Event Center have very nobly stepped up to the plate, and so our annual David L. Arneson Memorial Maritime Miniatures Mayhem Event in combination with the M. A. R. Barker Memorial Invitational Pro-Am Miniatures Event will occur on Saturday, June 8th, at noon at the Event Center. Their web site is:

        http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_npm.asp?eidm=13

        Please feel free to contact me for more information.

        yours, Chirine
      • Chirine
        ... Oh? Why, if I may ask? It s just the same old style of game play we used to do, back in Ye Olden Dayes, and I wouldn t think that there s be much interest
        Message 3 of 12 , May 31, 2013
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          --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@...> wrote:
          >
          > I'd love to see Chirine do this at a UCon.

          Oh? Why, if I may ask? It's just the same old style of game play we used to do, back in Ye Olden Dayes, and I wouldn't think that there's be much interest in that kind of thing these days.

          I mean, I'm flattered that you'd think our brand of silliness would be worth the table space at the convention, but I guess I'm surprised that anyone besides us old guys would be interested in what went on in Dave Wesley's basement almost forty years ago... :)

          -chirine
        • Zane H. Healy
          ... Dunno, I for one think it sounds quite interesting. Then again I m interested in any sort of rules light/free Role-Playing. The downside being there
          Message 4 of 12 , May 31, 2013
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            At 12:51 AM +0000 6/1/13, Chirine wrote:
            >--- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> I'd love to see Chirine do this at a UCon.
            >
            >Oh? Why, if I may ask? It's just the same old style of game play we
            >used to do, back in Ye Olden Dayes, and I wouldn't think that
            >there's be much interest in that kind of thing these days.
            >
            >I mean, I'm flattered that you'd think our brand of silliness would
            >be worth the table space at the convention, but I guess I'm
            >surprised that anyone besides us old guys would be interested in
            >what went on in Dave Wesley's basement almost forty years ago... :)
            >
            >-chirine

            Dunno, I for one think it sounds quite interesting. Then again I'm
            interested in any sort of rules light/free Role-Playing. The
            downside being there isn't any chance of my making it to the event on
            the 8th, or UCon.

            I just read your post on "The Great Mos Eisley Spaceport Raid", and
            that only makes this sound more interesting, especially for a "Cold
            War" or "Hot War" game. Out of curiosity, what have you found to be
            the minimum number of people this works with?

            Zane



            --
            | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
            | healyzh@... | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
            | | Photographer |
            +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
            | My flickr Photostream |
            | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088@N03/ |
            | My Photography Website |
            | http://www.zanesphotography.com |
          • Chirine
            ... Hmm; interesting. The reason why I m fascinated is that I ve generally had a very negative reaction to the Braunstein concept from quite a few modern
            Message 5 of 12 , May 31, 2013
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              --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@...> wrote:
              >
              > At 12:51 AM +0000 6/1/13, Chirine wrote:
              > >--- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@> wrote:
              > >>
              > >> I'd love to see Chirine do this at a UCon.
              > >
              > >Oh? Why, if I may ask? It's just the same old style of game play we
              > >used to do, back in Ye Olden Dayes, and I wouldn't think that
              > >there's be much interest in that kind of thing these days.
              > >
              > >I mean, I'm flattered that you'd think our brand of silliness would
              > >be worth the table space at the convention, but I guess I'm
              > >surprised that anyone besides us old guys would be interested in
              > >what went on in Dave Wesley's basement almost forty years ago... :)

              > Dunno, I for one think it sounds quite interesting. Then again I'm
              > interested in any sort of rules light/free Role-Playing. The
              > downside being there isn't any chance of my making it to the event on
              > the 8th, or UCon.

              Hmm; interesting. The reason why I'm fascinated is that I've generally had a very negative reaction to the 'Braunstein' concept from quite a few modern gamers, who seem to be very much into the mechanics of the rules and not very much into world-settings and group dynamics. I have to say that 'rules lawyers' always drove me crazy, as the debate over obscure bits of grammar and punctuation in rules usually got in the way of actually playing any games; I get a little worried when people are publishing actual flow-charts online to manage game mechanics in game session.

              I do have photos of the various games on the web; do a search for "chirine's workbench" and it'll take you to my Photobucket page.

              > I just read your post on "The Great Mos Eisley Spaceport Raid", and
              > that only makes this sound more interesting, especially for a "Cold
              > War" or "Hot War" game. Out of curiosity, what have you found to be
              > the minimum number of people this works with?

              The Great Spaceport Raid was about as large as these things got; I think I had twenty players. Jabba the Hutt and his minions were three of the players: Dave Arneson as Jabba, Dave Wesley as Greedo, and Ross Maker as Boba Fett. (Star Wars fans note: In 1976, at the World Con in Kansas City, I got to read the draft scripts for all nine movies, courtesy of George Lucas. Got to see the uncut first draft of the movie, too.) Ken Fletcher was kind enough to act as my deputy referee, and moved a lot of the random landspeeders and people.

              I think a minimum for these games would be four people, at least the way I run them. You getter a better group dynamic and much more interpersonal action, which is what makes these so much fun. It's all about what one can get away with, and Dave Arneson was a past master at hornswoggling his fellow players. He was a joy to watch, provied you kept your hand on your wallet... :)

              -Chirine
            • George Hammond
              ... For what it s worth, I think there s more diversity in tabletop rpgs and playing styles now than, well, pretty much ever. So don t be discouraged, you may
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 1, 2013
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                On May 31, 2013, at 11:30 PM, Chirine wrote:

                > Hmm; interesting. The reason why I'm fascinated is that I've generally had a very negative reaction to the 'Braunstein' concept from quite a few modern gamers, who seem to be very much into the mechanics of the rules and not very much into world-settings and group dynamics.

                For what it's worth, I think there's more diversity in tabletop rpgs and playing styles now than, well, pretty much ever. So don't be discouraged, you may not be as much of an outlier as you think. One relatively recent phenomenon that's relevant to Braunsteins is the "old school revival": resurgent interest in the early rpgs like the white box version of D&D, the Traveller "little black books" and other games of the 70's (including EPT!), and how they were played. Many folks have taken advantage of some of licensing arrangements from the current owners of D&D to write "retro-clones" -- modern games modeled closely on the ancestor games. I'm not an old school guy, but Victor Raymond and some other group members here are, so I'll let them weigh in on what it's all about.

                Beyond that, there are people playing diceless games (including a bunch of the Tekumel@UCon crowd), people playing "light" systems whose whole rule-book is a thin pamphlet, people playing the big giant towers of rules-and-tables games like Rolemaster (hi Carl!) and the more recent versions of D&D. Then there's a whole slew of recent, small, lean "indie" games (independent in the sense that they are not created by a game company, just by one or a few people and more or less self-published) that are designed to support only certain specific kinds of games, but do that really really well.

                I'm pretty much just a spectator these days, I don't play much, so there are lots of people here that know more than I do about the current tabletop rpg scene. This is just what I've seen from browsing the RPG.Net forum and reading the occasional blog.

                cheers,

                George
              • Chirine
                ... Interesting! I have to say that the vast majority of negative reactions that I ve gotten when I post or discuss what we used to do here in the Twin Cities
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 1, 2013
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                  > On May 31, 2013, at 11:30 PM, Chirine wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hmm; interesting. The reason why I'm fascinated is that I've generally had a very negative reaction to the 'Braunstein' concept from quite a few modern gamers, who seem to be very much into the mechanics of the rules and not very much into world-settings and group dynamics.

                  --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, George Hammond <worldsmith@...> wrote:

                  > For what it's worth, I think there's more diversity in tabletop rpgs and playing styles now >than, well, pretty much ever. So don't be discouraged, you may not be as much of an >outlier as you think. One relatively recent phenomenon that's relevant to Braunsteins is >the "old school revival": resurgent interest in the early rpgs like the white box version of >D&D, the Traveller "little black books" and other games of the 70's (including EPT!), and >how they were played. Many folks have taken advantage of some of licensing >arrangements from the current owners of D&D to write "retro-clones" -- modern games >modeled closely on the ancestor games. I'm not an old school guy, but Victor Raymond >and some other group members here are, so I'll let them weigh in on what it's all about.

                  Interesting! I have to say that the vast majority of negative reactions that I've gotten when I post or discuss what we used to do here in the Twin Cities have come from the OSR people that you touched on. There seems to be a dynamic working that quite a few of them want to believe that RPGs came into being in the middle 1990s - it's amazed me to find out how many of these good folks have no idea what went on in both the Twin Cities and in lake Geneva (and in other places; see Jon Peterson's "Playing at the World) prior to their entering the hobby. I've pretty much given up on the OSR as a result; I feel like I'm in the wrong church, espousing heresy and getting invited to a stoning.

                  I've had much the same reaction when I talk about what we used to do in Phil's games, back in the original Thursday night group (not the current The Thursday Night Group, of course, this was the people who played in Phil's 'other' Tekumel gaming group, 1976 to about 1990), where people seem to have fits over the idea that Phil rarely used The Rules and just concentrated on storytelling most of the time. I've been surprised at the number of people who react badly to that, and to Phil's usual playing style.

                  > Beyond that, there are people playing diceless games (including a bunch of the Tekumel@UCon crowd), people playing "light" systems whose whole rule-book is a thin pamphlet, people playing the big giant towers of rules-and-tables games like Rolemaster (hi Carl!) and the more recent versions of D&D. Then there's a whole slew of recent, small, lean "indie" games (independent in the sense that they are not created by a game company, just by one or a few people and more or less self-published) that are designed to support only certain specific kinds of games, but do that really really well.

                  Agreed; I have a number of the local 'indie' authors' games, and they look pretty good. Phil certainly fit your definition of 'rules-light', as his usual style of game rules would have fit on a small Post-it note. I run things like that in my games, as it's all I know how to do, and people - especially 'new' gamers, with no prior experience - seem to really like it.

                  > I'm pretty much just a spectator these days, I don't play much, so there are lots of people here that know more than I do about the current tabletop rpg scene. This is just what I've seen from browsing the RPG.Net forum and reading the occasional blog.

                  Sounds good - thank for the insights, though; don't sell yourself short!

                  -Chirine
                • Joseph Saul
                  We ve done a lot of unconventional gaming at UCon, both diceless and diced. Mostly tabletop, but some LARPs as well. What you re doing would be both
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 1, 2013
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                    We've done a lot of unconventional gaming at UCon, both diceless and diced.  Mostly tabletop, but some LARPs as well.  What you're doing would be both historically interesting and not too dissimilar from some of it.

                    On Jun 1, 2013, at 20:08, "Chirine" <chirine@...> wrote:

                     

                    > On May 31, 2013, at 11:30 PM, Chirine wrote:
                    >
                    > > Hmm; interesting. The reason why I'm fascinated is that I've generally had a very negative reaction to the 'Braunstein' concept from quite a few modern gamers, who seem to be very much into the mechanics of the rules and not very much into world-settings and group dynamics.

                    --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, George Hammond <worldsmith@...> wrote:

                    > For what it's worth, I think there's more diversity in tabletop rpgs and playing styles now >than, well, pretty much ever. So don't be discouraged, you may not be as much of an >outlier as you think. One relatively recent phenomenon that's relevant to Braunsteins is >the "old school revival": resurgent interest in the early rpgs like the white box version of >D&D, the Traveller "little black books" and other games of the 70's (including EPT!), and >how they were played. Many folks have taken advantage of some of licensing >arrangements from the current owners of D&D to write "retro-clones" -- modern games >modeled closely on the ancestor games. I'm not an old school guy, but Victor Raymond >and some other group members here are, so I'll let them weigh in on what it's all about.

                    Interesting! I have to say that the vast majority of negative reactions that I've gotten when I post or discuss what we used to do here in the Twin Cities have come from the OSR people that you touched on. There seems to be a dynamic working that quite a few of them want to believe that RPGs came into being in the middle 1990s - it's amazed me to find out how many of these good folks have no idea what went on in both the Twin Cities and in lake Geneva (and in other places; see Jon Peterson's "Playing at the World) prior to their entering the hobby. I've pretty much given up on the OSR as a result; I feel like I'm in the wrong church, espousing heresy and getting invited to a stoning.

                    I've had much the same reaction when I talk about what we used to do in Phil's games, back in the original Thursday night group (not the current The Thursday Night Group, of course, this was the people who played in Phil's 'other' Tekumel gaming group, 1976 to about 1990), where people seem to have fits over the idea that Phil rarely used The Rules and just concentrated on storytelling most of the time. I've been surprised at the number of people who react badly to that, and to Phil's usual playing style.

                    > Beyond that, there are people playing diceless games (including a bunch of the Tekumel@UCon crowd), people playing "light" systems whose whole rule-book is a thin pamphlet, people playing the big giant towers of rules-and-tables games like Rolemaster (hi Carl!) and the more recent versions of D&D. Then there's a whole slew of recent, small, lean "indie" games (independent in the sense that they are not created by a game company, just by one or a few people and more or less self-published) that are designed to support only certain specific kinds of games, but do that really really well.

                    Agreed; I have a number of the local 'indie' authors' games, and they look pretty good. Phil certainly fit your definition of 'rules-light', as his usual style of game rules would have fit on a small Post-it note. I run things like that in my games, as it's all I know how to do, and people - especially 'new' gamers, with no prior experience - seem to really like it.

                    > I'm pretty much just a spectator these days, I don't play much, so there are lots of people here that know more than I do about the current tabletop rpg scene. This is just what I've seen from browsing the RPG.Net forum and reading the occasional blog.

                    Sounds good - thank for the insights, though; don't sell yourself short!

                    -Chirine

                  • Chirine
                    ... Oh, right; got it. I feel like a gaming version of a coelacanth, down here below 120 meters in my nice dark cave... :) I ll have to look at this; my games
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 1, 2013
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                      --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Saul <jmsaul@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > We've done a lot of unconventional gaming at UCon, both diceless and diced. Mostly tabletop, but some LARPs as well. What you're doing would be both historically interesting and not too dissimilar from some of it.

                      Oh, right; got it. I feel like a gaming version of a coelacanth, down here below 120 meters in my nice dark cave... :)

                      I'll have to look at this; my games usually wind up needing a van load of miniatures and scenery, so there's some logistics we'd have to think about.

                      Hmm...

                      -Chirine
                    • Zane H. Healy
                      ... It was actually a description of Phil s method that heavily influenced me around 95. I used to play a lot of Champions and AD&D, and the idea of running
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 1, 2013
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                        At 12:08 AM +0000 6/2/13, Chirine wrote:
                        >I've had much the same reaction when I talk about what we used to do
                        >in Phil's games, back in the original Thursday night group (not the
                        >current The Thursday Night Group, of course, this was the people who
                        >played in Phil's 'other' Tekumel gaming group, 1976 to about 1990),
                        >where people seem to have fits over the idea that Phil rarely used
                        >The Rules and just concentrated on storytelling most of the time.
                        >I've been surprised at the number of people who react badly to that,
                        >and to Phil's usual playing style.

                        It was actually a description of Phil's method that heavily
                        influenced me around '95. I used to play a lot of Champions and
                        AD&D, and the idea of running games in this fashion was a breath of
                        fresh air. I've used it as the inspiration for running a game of
                        Traveller, and a Steampunk game where the character generation system
                        was GURPS, but once the characters were generated there were no rules.

                        Zane






                        --
                        | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
                        | healyzh@... | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
                        | | Photographer |
                        +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
                        | My flickr Photostream |
                        | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088@N03/ |
                        | My Photography Website |
                        | http://www.zanesphotography.com |
                      • rs
                        I have a copy of the very first D&D-based Tekumel game, a single book with a white cover, very simple rules.  There s a part of me that would be happy just
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jun 2, 2013
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                          I have a copy of the very first D&D-based Tekumel game, a single book with a white cover, very simple rules.  There's a part of me that would be happy just playing that.  90% of most RPG's and 98% of Tekumel are things other than the game mechanics.  Do you really need anything more?
                           
                          It's incredibly enjoyable reading going through the first Tekumel iteration.  And the maps with all their redness were extraordinary.  Of all of my endless cabinets of games, I treasure that the most.

                          From: George Hammond <worldsmith@...>
                          To: tekumel@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, June 1, 2013 5:49 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Tekumel] Braunstein meets the Petal Throne - June 8th, 2013
                           

                          On May 31, 2013, at 11:30 PM, Chirine wrote:

                          > Hmm; interesting. The reason why I'm fascinated is that I've generally had a very negative reaction to the 'Braunstein' concept from quite a few modern gamers, who seem to be very much into the mechanics of the rules and not very much into world-settings and group dynamics.

                          For what it's worth, I think there's more diversity in tabletop rpgs and playing styles now than, well, pretty much ever. So don't be discouraged, you may not be as much of an outlier as you think. One relatively recent phenomenon that's relevant to Braunsteins is the "old school revival": resurgent interest in the early rpgs like the white box version of D&D, the Traveller "little black books" and other games of the 70's (including EPT!), and how they were played. Many folks have taken advantage of some of licensing arrangements from the current owners of D&D to write "retro-clones" -- modern games modeled closely on the ancestor games. I'm not an old school guy, but Victor Raymond and some other group members here are, so I'll let them weigh in on what it's all about.

                          Beyond that, there are people playing diceless games (including a bunch of the Tekumel@UCon crowd), people playing "light" systems whose whole rule-book is a thin pamphlet, people playing the big giant towers of rules-and-tables games like Rolemaster (hi Carl!) and the more recent versions of D&D. Then there's a whole slew of recent, small, lean "indie" games (independent in the sense that they are not created by a game company, just by one or a few people and more or less self-published) that are designed to support only certain specific kinds of games, but do that really really well.

                          I'm pretty much just a spectator these days, I don't play much, so there are lots of people here that know more than I do about the current tabletop rpg scene. This is just what I've seen from browsing the RPG.Net forum and reading the occasional blog.

                          cheers,

                          George

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