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An interesting situation regarding a corpse...

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  • Darren
    A situation has arisen in my campaign that I thought I d share with the group, in the hope that some of the veterans might shed some light on the matter and/or
    Message 1 of 28 , Feb 24, 2013
      A situation has arisen in my campaign that I thought I'd share with the group, in the hope that some of the veterans might shed some light on the matter and/or confirm my thinking is along the right lines.

      In the last session, a Sorcerer-Priest of Ksarul attempted to kidnap one of the PCs due to a long-running situation. He approached the building the PCs were staying in (a White Stone property which, apart from the wing the PCs are in has been sub-let to the Blue Kirtle Clan) with a half-dozen armed guards. The subtle approach failed, two PCs resisting the blanketing of the building with Soporiferousness spells, and a fight ensued. By using some scrolls and an Eye, the PCs were able to drive off the attack, killing the Sorcerer-Priest in the process. Several members of the Blue Kirtle Clan were also killed in the exchange of spells.

      The PCs are fully aware of the fact that the corpse of their attacker was a Sorcerer-Priest of Ksarul. They don't have any means to prove this, however, and don't know his name. The question that occurred to us is- what happens to the body?

      As it stands, he's an unknown nobody (he's from out of town, and wore nothing that could identify his Clan or Temple Allegiance). Therefore, he's going to be given the burial of a Nakome Pauper, unless someone steps forward to claim the body. The problem there is that because he was killed whilst attacking the PCs, on their Clan's property where he had no business being, if he's claimed then the Clan or Temple claiming him will be the subject of substantial Shamtla claims.

      Exactly how much of a problem would it be to the average Tsolyani to leave their relative's corpse to such a fate in order to avoid Shamtla claims? (I'm not even asking about the Temple of Ksarul, of course they'll keep quiet.) For followers of Sarku, there'd obviously be no question they'd want the body returned- but how much does that matter to the other faiths? The very existence of the Cities of the Dead shows that proper burial is a big deal, but is it a big enough deal to pay Shamtla just to get a Clan-cousin a proper burial?

      Any thoughts on the matter will be very welcome.
    • zirunel2003
      We re talking Temple of Ksarul, right? The quintessentially secretive guys? It was their mission. And they have reason not to make a fuss, just suck it up and
      Message 2 of 28 , Feb 24, 2013
        We're talking Temple of Ksarul, right? The quintessentially secretive guys? It was their mission. And they have reason not to make a fuss, just suck it up and maybe try again later?

        My guess is, if the Temple doesn't want to make a big to-do about it, then the clan of the deceased will never learn the real circumstances of their clan-brother's death. Unfortunate drowning at sea... heroic end in the tsuru'um in the service of the Doomed Prince, body sadly never recovered. Whatever.

        I'm afraid, if the Temple chooses to keep it all quiet, then their esteemed priest probably is destined for a pauper's grave.

        Sad thing is, the clans that serve Ksarul may or may not believe what their Temple tells them, but they are probably rather used to mysterious deaths like this...

        --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, "Darren" <darrenking997@...> wrote:
        >
        > A situation has arisen in my campaign that I thought I'd share with the group, in the hope that some of the veterans might shed some light on the matter and/or confirm my thinking is along the right lines.
        >
        > In the last session, a Sorcerer-Priest of Ksarul attempted to kidnap one of the PCs due to a long-running situation. He approached the building the PCs were staying in (a White Stone property which, apart from the wing the PCs are in has been sub-let to the Blue Kirtle Clan) with a half-dozen armed guards. The subtle approach failed, two PCs resisting the blanketing of the building with Soporiferousness spells, and a fight ensued. By using some scrolls and an Eye, the PCs were able to drive off the attack, killing the Sorcerer-Priest in the process. Several members of the Blue Kirtle Clan were also killed in the exchange of spells.
        >
        > The PCs are fully aware of the fact that the corpse of their attacker was a Sorcerer-Priest of Ksarul. They don't have any means to prove this, however, and don't know his name. The question that occurred to us is- what happens to the body?
        >
        > As it stands, he's an unknown nobody (he's from out of town, and wore nothing that could identify his Clan or Temple Allegiance). Therefore, he's going to be given the burial of a Nakome Pauper, unless someone steps forward to claim the body. The problem there is that because he was killed whilst attacking the PCs, on their Clan's property where he had no business being, if he's claimed then the Clan or Temple claiming him will be the subject of substantial Shamtla claims.
        >
        > Exactly how much of a problem would it be to the average Tsolyani to leave their relative's corpse to such a fate in order to avoid Shamtla claims? (I'm not even asking about the Temple of Ksarul, of course they'll keep quiet.) For followers of Sarku, there'd obviously be no question they'd want the body returned- but how much does that matter to the other faiths? The very existence of the Cities of the Dead shows that proper burial is a big deal, but is it a big enough deal to pay Shamtla just to get a Clan-cousin a proper burial?
        >
        > Any thoughts on the matter will be very welcome.
        >
      • Bill Acheson
        I agree, If you are killed or captured, the Temple will disavow all knowledge of your actions. But the Temple requests that if capture seems imminent, that
        Message 3 of 28 , Feb 24, 2013
          I agree, "If you are killed or captured, the
          Temple will disavow all knowledge of your
          actions. But the Temple requests that if capture
          seems imminent, that death (preferably of a kind
          that forcludes revivification) would be the preferred alternative."

          At 09:06 PM 2/24/2013, you wrote:
          >
          >
          >We're talking Temple of Ksarul, right? The
          >quintessentially secretive guys? It was their
          >mission. And they have reason not to make a
          >fuss, just suck it up and maybe try again later?
          >
          >My guess is, if the Temple doesn't want to make
          >a big to-do about it, then the clan of the
          >deceased will never learn the real circumstances
          >of their clan-brother's death. Unfortunate
          >drowning at sea... heroic end in the tsuru'um in
          >the service of the Doomed Prince, body sadly never recovered. Whatever.
          >
          >I'm afraid, if the Temple chooses to keep it all
          >quiet, then their esteemed priest probably is destined for a pauper's grave.
          >
          >Sad thing is, the clans that serve Ksarul may or
          >may not believe what their Temple tells them,
          >but they are probably rather used to mysterious deaths like this...
          >
          >--- In
          ><mailto:tekumel%40yahoogroups.com>tekumel@yahoogroups.com, "Darren" wrote:
          > >
          > > A situation has arisen in my campaign that I
          > thought I'd share with the group, in the hope
          > that some of the veterans might shed some light
          > on the matter and/or confirm my thinking is along the right lines.
          > >
          > > In the last session, a Sorcerer-Priest of
          > Ksarul attempted to kidnap one of the PCs due
          > to a long-running situation. He approached the
          > building the PCs were staying in (a White Stone
          > property which, apart from the wing the PCs are
          > in has been sub-let to the Blue Kirtle Clan)
          > with a half-dozen armed guards. The subtle
          > approach failed, two PCs resisting the
          > blanketing of the building with
          > Soporiferousness spells, and a fight ensued. By
          > using some scrolls and an Eye, the PCs were
          > able to drive off the attack, killing the
          > Sorcerer-Priest in the process. Several members
          > of the Blue Kirtle Clan were also killed in the exchange of spells.
          > >
          > > The PCs are fully aware of the fact that the
          > corpse of their attacker was a Sorcerer-Priest
          > of Ksarul. They don't have any means to prove
          > this, however, and don't know his name. The
          > question that occurred to us is- what happens to the body?
          > >
          > > As it stands, he's an unknown nobody (he's
          > from out of town, and wore nothing that could
          > identify his Clan or Temple Allegiance).
          > Therefore, he's going to be given the burial of
          > a Nakome Pauper, unless someone steps forward
          > to claim the body. The problem there is that
          > because he was killed whilst attacking the PCs,
          > on their Clan's property where he had no
          > business being, if he's claimed then the Clan
          > or Temple claiming him will be the subject of substantial Shamtla claims.
          > >
          > > Exactly how much of a problem would it be to
          > the average Tsolyani to leave their relative's
          > corpse to such a fate in order to avoid Shamtla
          > claims? (I'm not even asking about the Temple
          > of Ksarul, of course they'll keep quiet.) For
          > followers of Sarku, there'd obviously be no
          > question they'd want the body returned- but how
          > much does that matter to the other faiths? The
          > very existence of the Cities of the Dead shows
          > that proper burial is a big deal, but is it a
          > big enough deal to pay Shamtla just to get a Clan-cousin a proper burial?
          > >
          > > Any thoughts on the matter will be very welcome.
          > >
          >
          >
        • Malcolm Heath
          If it was me, I d have the body wrapped up, and deliver it to the temple. That shows class, and lets the temple know you know. What they do with it is their
          Message 4 of 28 , Feb 24, 2013
            If it was me, I'd have the body wrapped up, and deliver it to the temple.  That shows class, and lets the temple know you know. 

            What they do with it is their business.  

            They might even want to talk.

            Malcolm

            Le dimanche 24 février 2013, Darren a écrit :
             

            A situation has arisen in my campaign that I thought I'd share with the group, in the hope that some of the veterans might shed some light on the matter and/or confirm my thinking is along the right lines.

            In the last session, a Sorcerer-Priest of Ksarul attempted to kidnap one of the PCs due to a long-running situation. He approached the building the PCs were staying in (a White Stone property which, apart from the wing the PCs are in has been sub-let to the Blue Kirtle Clan) with a half-dozen armed guards. The subtle approach failed, two PCs resisting the blanketing of the building with Soporiferousness spells, and a fight ensued. By using some scrolls and an Eye, the PCs were able to drive off the attack, killing the Sorcerer-Priest in the process. Several members of the Blue Kirtle Clan were also killed in the exchange of spells.

            The PCs are fully aware of the fact that the corpse of their attacker was a Sorcerer-Priest of Ksarul. They don't have any means to prove this, however, and don't know his name. The question that occurred to us is- what happens to the body?

            As it stands, he's an unknown nobody (he's from out of town, and wore nothing that could identify his Clan or Temple Allegiance). Therefore, he's going to be given the burial of a Nakome Pauper, unless someone steps forward to claim the body. The problem there is that because he was killed whilst attacking the PCs, on their Clan's property where he had no business being, if he's claimed then the Clan or Temple claiming him will be the subject of substantial Shamtla claims.

            Exactly how much of a problem would it be to the average Tsolyani to leave their relative's corpse to such a fate in order to avoid Shamtla claims? (I'm not even asking about the Temple of Ksarul, of course they'll keep quiet.) For followers of Sarku, there'd obviously be no question they'd want the body returned- but how much does that matter to the other faiths? The very existence of the Cities of the Dead shows that proper burial is a big deal, but is it a big enough deal to pay Shamtla just to get a Clan-cousin a proper burial?

            Any thoughts on the matter will be very welcome.

          • zirunel2003
            And if they acknowledge that they can identify the culprits of this above-ground armed attack on an urban clanhouse, Blue Kirtle and possibly White Stone as
            Message 5 of 28 , Feb 24, 2013
              And if they acknowledge that they can identify the culprits of this above-ground armed attack on an urban clanhouse, Blue Kirtle and possibly White Stone as well would be kind of forced to press their own claims for shamtla.

              Accepting the body would thus put the Temple of Ksarul in a rather dodgy position. I still think the blackrobes would deny everything; after all, these are the guys who lie about what they had for breakfast AND dispose of the cook, but still.... that is a good idea, delivering the body to their Temple would certainly stir the pot...could be interesting!

              --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Heath <malcolmpdx@...> wrote:
              >
              > If it was me, I'd have the body wrapped up, and deliver it to the temple.
              > That shows class, and lets the temple know you know.
              >
              > What they do with it is their business.
              >
              > They might even want to talk.
              >
              > Malcolm
              >
              > Le dimanche 24 février 2013, Darren a écrit :
              >
              > > **
              > >
              > >
              > > A situation has arisen in my campaign that I thought I'd share with the
              > > group, in the hope that some of the veterans might shed some light on the
              > > matter and/or confirm my thinking is along the right lines.
              > >
              > > In the last session, a Sorcerer-Priest of Ksarul attempted to kidnap one
              > > of the PCs due to a long-running situation. He approached the building the
              > > PCs were staying in (a White Stone property which, apart from the wing the
              > > PCs are in has been sub-let to the Blue Kirtle Clan) with a half-dozen
              > > armed guards. The subtle approach failed, two PCs resisting the blanketing
              > > of the building with Soporiferousness spells, and a fight ensued. By using
              > > some scrolls and an Eye, the PCs were able to drive off the attack, killing
              > > the Sorcerer-Priest in the process. Several members of the Blue Kirtle Clan
              > > were also killed in the exchange of spells.
              > >
              > > The PCs are fully aware of the fact that the corpse of their attacker was
              > > a Sorcerer-Priest of Ksarul. They don't have any means to prove this,
              > > however, and don't know his name. The question that occurred to us is- what
              > > happens to the body?
              > >
              > > As it stands, he's an unknown nobody (he's from out of town, and wore
              > > nothing that could identify his Clan or Temple Allegiance). Therefore, he's
              > > going to be given the burial of a Nakome Pauper, unless someone steps
              > > forward to claim the body. The problem there is that because he was killed
              > > whilst attacking the PCs, on their Clan's property where he had no business
              > > being, if he's claimed then the Clan or Temple claiming him will be the
              > > subject of substantial Shamtla claims.
              > >
              > > Exactly how much of a problem would it be to the average Tsolyani to leave
              > > their relative's corpse to such a fate in order to avoid Shamtla claims?
              > > (I'm not even asking about the Temple of Ksarul, of course they'll keep
              > > quiet.) For followers of Sarku, there'd obviously be no question they'd
              > > want the body returned- but how much does that matter to the other faiths?
              > > The very existence of the Cities of the Dead shows that proper burial is a
              > > big deal, but is it a big enough deal to pay Shamtla just to get a
              > > Clan-cousin a proper burial?
              > >
              > > Any thoughts on the matter will be very welcome.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • George Hammond
              ... Then I think he s not the sort of person whose family would be strongly concerned about the fate of his corpse. He s clearly put his Temple loyalty far
              Message 6 of 28 , Feb 24, 2013
                On Feb 24, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Darren wrote:

                > (he's from out of town, and wore nothing that could identify his Clan or Temple Allegiance).

                Then I think he's not the sort of person whose family would be strongly concerned about the fate of his corpse. He's clearly put his Temple loyalty far ahead of that of his clan. Given his lack of clan or tempIe insignia think it would be correct to treat him as nakome, clanless, and so his corpse is just rubbish. The most menial house slaves should be assigned to dispose of it in whatever way is customary. Dump it in the river, or a sewer, or pay some miserable Very Low clan types to haul it to the lime pit where such carrion is disposed of.

                Malcolm's idea would certainly stir the pot. :) "This object was left at our clanhouse. We believe it belongs to the Temple."

                George
              • Brett Slocum
                I must commend you on your choice of Subject. I m with George. If he came to the clan house with no identifying marks, the clan surely believes him to be
                Message 7 of 28 , Feb 24, 2013
                  I must commend you on your choice of Subject. 

                  I'm with George. If he came to the clan house with no identifying marks, the clan surely believes him to be either Nakome or ignoble, either way not needing a fancy burial, nor returning to his clan.

                  ---
                  Brett Slocum <slocum@...>


                  On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 9:32 PM, George Hammond <worldsmith@...> wrote:
                   


                  On Feb 24, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Darren wrote:

                  > (he's from out of town, and wore nothing that could identify his Clan or Temple Allegiance).

                  Then I think he's not the sort of person whose family would be strongly concerned about the fate of his corpse. He's clearly put his Temple loyalty far ahead of that of his clan. Given his lack of clan or tempIe insignia think it would be correct to treat him as nakome, clanless, and so his corpse is just rubbish. The most menial house slaves should be assigned to dispose of it in whatever way is customary. Dump it in the river, or a sewer, or pay some miserable Very Low clan types to haul it to the lime pit where such carrion is disposed of.

                  Malcolm's idea would certainly stir the pot. :) "This object was left at our clanhouse. We believe it belongs to the Temple."

                  George


                • Darren King
                  Seems like my thinking was along the right lines then. However, simply leaving things be seems far too simple a way to do things, so after sleeping on it I ve
                  Message 8 of 28 , Feb 25, 2013
                    Seems like my thinking was along the right lines then. However, simply leaving things be seems far too simple a way to do things, so after sleeping on it I've come up with the following ways to potentially stir the pot.

                    1- He was a fairly powerful Sorcerer-Priest, and those don't grow on trees. The Temple of Ksarul, whilst publically disavowing all knowledge of him, would probably like him back. So they'll let him be taken for a Nakome burial, and then try to steal the corpse and carry it back to the Temple for Revification. As well as getting their Sorcerer back, the Temple is very curious about why the kidnap attempt failed and doesn't want to risk another without finding out. (They had an Eye of Inimitable Psychic Nullity that sapped his energy points and rendered his magic useless.)

                    2- Whilst coming from out of town, the Sorcerer had been in Jakalla many times before, and has a lover he visits when he's there. She's not a worshipper of Ksarul, and cares about him enough to feel outraged at the thought of him being dumped in a Nakome grave (or whatever the Tsolyani do with Nakome dead, I forget). So if she has reason to suspect what happened (the event at the PC's residence was loud enough for it to be the big news of the day- Sorcerous battles in a Clanhouse!), she'll try and draw attention to his identity.

                    Just out of curiosity, how keen to claim a body do people think would the average Tsolyani Clan be if the Clan-member was killed doing something they'd face Shamtla claims for? If it was someone from their Clanhouse and they knew who he was? I assume there comes a point where they'd decide to wash their hands of him, just as they would if he were still alive- a Low Status Clan whose unidentified member had been killed assulting a Noble are obviously going to pretend they have no idea who he is if they can get away with it, but what do people think the cut-off point should be?
                     


                    On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 4:47 AM, Brett Slocum <brett.slocum@...> wrote:
                     

                    I must commend you on your choice of Subject. 

                    I'm with George. If he came to the clan house with no identifying marks, the clan surely believes him to be either Nakome or ignoble, either way not needing a fancy burial, nor returning to his clan.

                    ---
                    Brett Slocum <slocum@...>


                    On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 9:32 PM, George Hammond <worldsmith@...> wrote:
                     


                    On Feb 24, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Darren wrote:

                    > (he's from out of town, and wore nothing that could identify his Clan or Temple Allegiance).

                    Then I think he's not the sort of person whose family would be strongly concerned about the fate of his corpse. He's clearly put his Temple loyalty far ahead of that of his clan. Given his lack of clan or tempIe insignia think it would be correct to treat him as nakome, clanless, and so his corpse is just rubbish. The most menial house slaves should be assigned to dispose of it in whatever way is customary. Dump it in the river, or a sewer, or pay some miserable Very Low clan types to haul it to the lime pit where such carrion is disposed of.

                    Malcolm's idea would certainly stir the pot. :) "This object was left at our clanhouse. We believe it belongs to the Temple."

                    George



                  • Howard
                    interesting. What is the most interesting possible response? I should think his clan would be wanting the body. I should think that the Ksarul temple might try
                    Message 9 of 28 , Feb 25, 2013
                      interesting. What is the most interesting possible response? I should think his clan would be wanting the body. I should think that the Ksarul temple might try to spin this, so that the party is suspected of striping the corpse to hide the identity. I should probably read the blog report.. don't know if their is anyway for them to pull that off.

                      I should think it not bosun for a member of temple Ksarul to go incognito. They would be expected to do so.. What kind of damage would have to be repaid? If he is as powerful as I suspect, I could certainly see the clan feeling that it was worth it.. Can there be any legal defence made for the fight?

                      just brain storming.



                      --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, Darren King <darrenking997@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Seems like my thinking was along the right lines then. However, simply
                      > leaving things be seems far too simple a way to do things, so after
                      > sleeping on it I've come up with the following ways to potentially stir the
                      > pot.
                      >
                      > 1- He was a fairly powerful Sorcerer-Priest, and those don't grow on trees.
                      > The Temple of Ksarul, whilst publically disavowing all knowledge of him,
                      > would probably like him back. So they'll let him be taken for a Nakome
                      > burial, and then try to steal the corpse and carry it back to the Temple
                      > for Revification. As well as getting their Sorcerer back, the Temple is
                      > very curious about why the kidnap attempt failed and doesn't want to risk
                      > another without finding out. (They had an Eye of Inimitable Psychic Nullity
                      > that sapped his energy points and rendered his magic useless.)
                      >
                      > 2- Whilst coming from out of town, the Sorcerer had been in Jakalla many
                      > times before, and has a lover he visits when he's there. She's not a
                      > worshipper of Ksarul, and cares about him enough to feel outraged at the
                      > thought of him being dumped in a Nakome grave (or whatever the Tsolyani do
                      > with Nakome dead, I forget). So if she has reason to suspect what happened
                      > (the event at the PC's residence was loud enough for it to be the big news
                      > of the day- Sorcerous battles in a Clanhouse!), she'll try and draw
                      > attention to his identity.
                      >
                      > Just out of curiosity, how keen to claim a body do people think would the
                      > average Tsolyani Clan be if the Clan-member was killed doing something
                      > they'd face Shamtla claims for? If it was someone from their Clanhouse and
                      > they knew who he was? I assume there comes a point where they'd decide to
                      > wash their hands of him, just as they would if he were still alive- a Low
                      > Status Clan whose unidentified member had been killed assulting a Noble are
                      > obviously going to pretend they have no idea who he is if they can get away
                      > with it, but what do people think the cut-off point should be?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 4:47 AM, Brett Slocum <brett.slocum@...>wrote:
                      >
                      > > **
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I must commend you on your choice of Subject.
                      > >
                      > > I'm with George. If he came to the clan house with no identifying marks,
                      > > the clan surely believes him to be either Nakome or ignoble, either way not
                      > > needing a fancy burial, nor returning to his clan.
                      > >
                      > > ---
                      > > Brett Slocum <slocum@...>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 9:32 PM, George Hammond <worldsmith@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >> **
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> On Feb 24, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Darren wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >> > (he's from out of town, and wore nothing that could identify his Clan
                      > >> or Temple Allegiance).
                      > >>
                      > >> Then I think he's not the sort of person whose family would be strongly
                      > >> concerned about the fate of his corpse. He's clearly put his Temple loyalty
                      > >> far ahead of that of his clan. Given his lack of clan or tempIe insignia
                      > >> think it would be correct to treat him as nakome, clanless, and so his
                      > >> corpse is just rubbish. The most menial house slaves should be assigned to
                      > >> dispose of it in whatever way is customary. Dump it in the river, or a
                      > >> sewer, or pay some miserable Very Low clan types to haul it to the lime pit
                      > >> where such carrion is disposed of.
                      > >>
                      > >> Malcolm's idea would certainly stir the pot. :) "This object was left at
                      > >> our clanhouse. We believe it belongs to the Temple."
                      > >>
                      > >> George
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Justin Akkerman
                      G Day, I am pretty new to Tekumel, so forgive me if I am really off base. In terms of wanting to get the body back of their fallen operative. Do they see that
                      Message 10 of 28 , Feb 25, 2013
                        G'Day, I am pretty new to Tekumel, so forgive me if I am really off base.
                         
                        In terms of wanting to get the body back of their fallen operative. Do they see that he was honorable in what he did, or does his failure indicate that he is not worthy? Historically here on earth, I think of two times in particular which might offer insight into what might drive the Ksarul to act. The first is what happens in the Trojan war with the bodies of Patroclus and Hector. Maybe there is a Priam who will ask for his son back? In this case the maltreatment of the corpse of an enemy is seen to be a great crime. In the Greek context not seeking redress and return of the corpse might even cause you to be haunted by the erynies. If it is not possible to get the bodies back, why not pay the Shamtla? Is the temple cheap or in a state of penury? Will a quick payment allow them to revive their lost clan member? Maybe, since his clan is not known, they could use an intermediary to get a better price.
                         
                        Another time is the cycle of the Popol Vuh. The father and uncle of the hero are drawn into the underworld and cheated by the gods. They are slain and sacrificed. Their sons who are better than the fathers, they are semi-mortal and semi-divine, go back and repeat the acts of the fathers, but they do not make the same mistakes that their ancestors did. They, in the end, are victorious over the gods and dictate terms to the gods. This reflects the cyclical view of time that the Maya held. Actions flowing from this is that they may want to erase the dishonour from the previous attack by doubling down and crushing the clan-house that they failed to overcome the first time. This would repeat the past but with the "correct" outcome.
                         
                        Another option is to keep challenging the offending clan members to duels until they Ksarul feel that their honour has been restored, or they have eliminated a similarly talented member from the opposing clan.
                        The first option fits with a linear view of time. You live , you die and who ever is left, picks up the pieces. The second fits with a cyclical view of time. The same things happen over and over. I we all die or descendants will set things right and thus we win.
                        On 26 February 2013 14:36, Howard <kokigami@...> wrote:
                         

                        interesting. What is the most interesting possible response? I should think his clan would be wanting the body. I should think that the Ksarul temple might try to spin this, so that the party is suspected of striping the corpse to hide the identity. I should probably read the blog report.. don't know if their is anyway for them to pull that off.

                        I should think it not bosun for a member of temple Ksarul to go incognito. They would be expected to do so.. What kind of damage would have to be repaid? If he is as powerful as I suspect, I could certainly see the clan feeling that it was worth it.. Can there be any legal defence made for the fight?

                        just brain storming.


                         
                      • George Hammond
                        There s a line in Man of Gold that indicates that at least in Purdimal, the corpses of slaves and paupers are dumped into a pit outside the city, and dlaqo
                        Message 11 of 28 , Feb 25, 2013
                          There's a line in Man of Gold that indicates that at least in Purdimal, the corpses of slaves and paupers are dumped into a pit outside the city, and dlaqo beetle emerge to feed on the carrion. I imagine that in most cities something similar is done. No care or ceremony, just whatever procedure doesn't take much effort but keeps the flies down.

                          On Feb 25, 2013, at 7:41 AM, Darren King wrote:

                          > Just out of curiosity, how keen to claim a body do people think would the average Tsolyani Clan be if the Clan-member was killed doing something they'd face Shamtla claims for? If it was someone from their Clanhouse and they knew who he was? I assume there comes a point where they'd decide to wash their hands of him, just as they would if he were still alive- a Low Status Clan whose unidentified member had been killed assulting a Noble are obviously going to pretend they have no idea who he is if they can get away with it, but what do people think the cut-off point should be?

                          As with shamtla against living members, much depends on the status of the person within the clan, and the clan elders' perception of the nature of the act that resulted in the death. If it was blithering stupidity and incompetence, or the person was disdained by his clan-cousins in life, then not a finger might be lifted. If the person has influential friends and family in the clanhouse, was a leader, had served the clan well, then the clan might be willing to go pretty far to claim their own. The clan could actually gain some status if they are known to step up take responsibility for their members, dead or alive. That's noble action.

                          If the person's act was perhaps noble but foolhardy, or clearly done with the best interest of the clan at heart, then they might go very far indeed, and be proud to pay the shamtla. Subordination to the welfare of the clan is a very big deal, and death in the service of the clan is going to get high praise and validation.
                          Not directly answering the question, but fwiw,

                          George
                        • Darren King
                          Justin s points are all pretty relevant to Tekumel in general- but not to the Temple of Ksarul specifically. In both the situations Justin suggests- sucking it
                          Message 12 of 28 , Feb 26, 2013
                            Justin's points are all pretty relevant to Tekumel in general- but not to the Temple of Ksarul specifically. In both the situations Justin suggests- sucking it up and accepting the Shamtla penalties to do the dead honour, or repeating the attack to expunge the stain of defeat- these would fit very well with many people on Tekumel. Just not the ones who join the Temple of Ksarul.

                            The worshippers of the Doomed Prince of the Blue Room are all secretive schemers, and would never want to publically request the body of one of their dead back in this manner- they would, as I suggested, simply let it be given an ignoble burial and then try to steal it back for revification.

                            But then, the whole matter came about because the Temple of Ksarul planned to kidnap a boy with great magical potential and subject him to extensive mind-control so that he joins them instead of another Temple. Given that most Temples might not go quite this far with such under-handed tactics, the Temples likely to act in the ways Justin suggests probably wouldn't have got a Priest killed in this way in the first place.


                            On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 4:02 AM, Justin Akkerman <justin.akkerman@...> wrote:
                             

                            G'Day, I am pretty new to Tekumel, so forgive me if I am really off base.
                             
                            In terms of wanting to get the body back of their fallen operative. Do they see that he was honorable in what he did, or does his failure indicate that he is not worthy? Historically here on earth, I think of two times in particular which might offer insight into what might drive the Ksarul to act. The first is what happens in the Trojan war with the bodies of Patroclus and Hector. Maybe there is a Priam who will ask for his son back? In this case the maltreatment of the corpse of an enemy is seen to be a great crime. In the Greek context not seeking redress and return of the corpse might even cause you to be haunted by the erynies. If it is not possible to get the bodies back, why not pay the Shamtla? Is the temple cheap or in a state of penury? Will a quick payment allow them to revive their lost clan member? Maybe, since his clan is not known, they could use an intermediary to get a better price.
                             
                            Another time is the cycle of the Popol Vuh. The father and uncle of the hero are drawn into the underworld and cheated by the gods. They are slain and sacrificed. Their sons who are better than the fathers, they are semi-mortal and semi-divine, go back and repeat the acts of the fathers, but they do not make the same mistakes that their ancestors did. They, in the end, are victorious over the gods and dictate terms to the gods. This reflects the cyclical view of time that the Maya held. Actions flowing from this is that they may want to erase the dishonour from the previous attack by doubling down and crushing the clan-house that they failed to overcome the first time. This would repeat the past but with the "correct" outcome.
                             
                            Another option is to keep challenging the offending clan members to duels until they Ksarul feel that their honour has been restored, or they have eliminated a similarly talented member from the opposing clan.
                            The first option fits with a linear view of time. You live , you die and who ever is left, picks up the pieces. The second fits with a cyclical view of time. The same things happen over and over. I we all die or descendants will set things right and thus we win.
                            On 26 February 2013 14:36, Howard <kokigami@...> wrote:
                             

                            interesting. What is the most interesting possible response? I should think his clan would be wanting the body. I should think that the Ksarul temple might try to spin this, so that the party is suspected of striping the corpse to hide the identity. I should probably read the blog report.. don't know if their is anyway for them to pull that off.

                            I should think it not bosun for a member of temple Ksarul to go incognito. They would be expected to do so.. What kind of damage would have to be repaid? If he is as powerful as I suspect, I could certainly see the clan feeling that it was worth it.. Can there be any legal defence made for the fight?

                            just brain storming.


                             


                          • Malcolm Heath
                            I m going to have to disagree with much of what s been said so far...but of course add the proviso that this is just for my personal version of Tekumel. Yes,
                            Message 13 of 28 , Feb 26, 2013
                              I'm going to have to disagree with much of what's been said so far...but of course add the proviso that this is just for my personal version of Tekumel.

                              Yes, the Temple of the Doomed Prince of the Blue Room has, as it's operating principal, the idea of the accumulation of knowledge and power for selfish ends, specifically the selfish ends of the institution as a whole, but also for it's practitioners.  However, they are still Tsolyani.  They don't get a pass on other forms of noble action, just because they're sneaky.  

                              My take:

                              If the temple was behind sending the fellow to attack the PCs, and were so dishonorable (and illegal) to do so without him having any identifying insignia, and to do so above ground, in a city, and during the day, then something REALLY major is going on.  I have no idea what the PCs did to generate this issue...but it's well past the norm for this sort of thing at this point.  In order to even authorize such an attack, the Temple would have had to agree at it's highest levels that the attendant risk of breaking the Concordat was worth the possible reward.  I somehow doubt that this was the case, so let's move to the next possibility.

                              If the temple wasn't behind it, it's possible that some faction of the temple was behind it.  A secret society (one well out of hand, by the look of it) took it upon itself to place the Temple at huge political risk, and sopped things a bit by having one of it's (obviously fanatical) adherents attack someone incognito, and during the day.  That the attacker was well and clearly out of their mind and a fanatic is clear here - who else would have agreed to a) break the Concordat and b) do it anonymously, with the knowledge that should he fail, his body would not be returned to his clan, nor would his temple be liable, and run the risk of being tossed with the other clanless dead onto the corpse pile at the edge of town?  And if it's not a secret society full of bat-shit insane fanatics, then

                              It was a solo job, on the head of the individual, who as we have previously comprehended, was nuts.  I wonder how someone who was willing to do this ever got into the position of being trusted enough to become a powerful sorcerer?

                              Given this...what should the PCs do?  What would the Temple want them to do?  What would the clan of the deceased want?

                              The Clan would want it's member back, even if it was just to disown him and toss him on the heap themselves.  He's theirs, it's their shame, they would want to deal with it.  However, without any markings, it's going to be hard for this to happen.

                              The Temple likewise would probably actively appreciate the return of their priest.  Either they know, in which case, they'll want a chance to spin this so that they're not hauled before an Imperial Court for breaking the Concordat; they don't know but someone in the temple does, in which case, they'll want to know so that they can get that secret society under control (because, damn, having some sect in your temple put you all at risk is NOT COOL); or even if it's just this one guy - what happened to him to make him all crazy?  You can't have sorcerers running around doing that kinda stuff.  

                              The PCs have the most to gain here - a few options:

                              1) toss the guy on the trash heap and wash their hands.  This doesn't really accomplish much.
                              2) drop the guy at the temple - if they do it publicly, their asking for some sort of response (even if it is just "why'd you do that?") from the Temple.  Or quietly inform the temple that they have their guy, and could they come pick him up?  In which case the Temple will likely show up with a bag of money, and some demands for quiet.  Or maybe the temple would decide to do something different.    
                              3) figure out what clan the guy was from - and tell them what happened.  The Clan might very well want to go cause trouble at the temple.  Probably will, in fact.  At any rate, that might keep the temple on it's toes for a bit, and give the PCs a break.  Or it might just piss the Temple off, in which case, things will get interesting.  

                              My point mainly being that this sort of thing (i.e. powerful sorcerer, incognito, breaking the Concordat) is not necessarily normal operating procedure for the Temple of Ksarul.  And they're likely going to _have_ to respond, one way or another, to cover the damages or keep this quiet, because this is WAY out of line.  

                              Malcolm



                              2013/2/26 Darren King <darrenking997@...>
                               

                              Justin's points are all pretty relevant to Tekumel in general- but not to the Temple of Ksarul specifically. In both the situations Justin suggests- sucking it up and accepting the Shamtla penalties to do the dead honour, or repeating the attack to expunge the stain of defeat- these would fit very well with many people on Tekumel. Just not the ones who join the Temple of Ksarul.

                              The worshippers of the Doomed Prince of the Blue Room are all secretive schemers, and would never want to publically request the body of one of their dead back in this manner- they would, as I suggested, simply let it be given an ignoble burial and then try to steal it back for revification.

                              But then, the whole matter came about because the Temple of Ksarul planned to kidnap a boy with great magical potential and subject him to extensive mind-control so that he joins them instead of another Temple. Given that most Temples might not go quite this far with such under-handed tactics, the Temples likely to act in the ways Justin suggests probably wouldn't have got a Priest killed in this way in the first place.


                              On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 4:02 AM, Justin Akkerman <justin.akkerman@...> wrote:
                               

                              G'Day, I am pretty new to Tekumel, so forgive me if I am really off base.
                               
                              In terms of wanting to get the body back of their fallen operative. Do they see that he was honorable in what he did, or does his failure indicate that he is not worthy? Historically here on earth, I think of two times in particular which might offer insight into what might drive the Ksarul to act. The first is what happens in the Trojan war with the bodies of Patroclus and Hector. Maybe there is a Priam who will ask for his son back? In this case the maltreatment of the corpse of an enemy is seen to be a great crime. In the Greek context not seeking redress and return of the corpse might even cause you to be haunted by the erynies. If it is not possible to get the bodies back, why not pay the Shamtla? Is the temple cheap or in a state of penury? Will a quick payment allow them to revive their lost clan member? Maybe, since his clan is not known, they could use an intermediary to get a better price.
                               
                              Another time is the cycle of the Popol Vuh. The father and uncle of the hero are drawn into the underworld and cheated by the gods. They are slain and sacrificed. Their sons who are better than the fathers, they are semi-mortal and semi-divine, go back and repeat the acts of the fathers, but they do not make the same mistakes that their ancestors did. They, in the end, are victorious over the gods and dictate terms to the gods. This reflects the cyclical view of time that the Maya held. Actions flowing from this is that they may want to erase the dishonour from the previous attack by doubling down and crushing the clan-house that they failed to overcome the first time. This would repeat the past but with the "correct" outcome.
                               
                              Another option is to keep challenging the offending clan members to duels until they Ksarul feel that their honour has been restored, or they have eliminated a similarly talented member from the opposing clan.
                              The first option fits with a linear view of time. You live , you die and who ever is left, picks up the pieces. The second fits with a cyclical view of time. The same things happen over and over. I we all die or descendants will set things right and thus we win.
                              On 26 February 2013 14:36, Howard <kokigami@...> wrote:
                               

                              interesting. What is the most interesting possible response? I should think his clan would be wanting the body. I should think that the Ksarul temple might try to spin this, so that the party is suspected of striping the corpse to hide the identity. I should probably read the blog report.. don't know if their is anyway for them to pull that off.

                              I should think it not bosun for a member of temple Ksarul to go incognito. They would be expected to do so.. What kind of damage would have to be repaid? If he is as powerful as I suspect, I could certainly see the clan feeling that it was worth it.. Can there be any legal defence made for the fight?

                              just brain storming.


                               



                            • zirunel2003
                              I still feel the Temple of Ksarul would deny deny deny. As long as its plausible. Especially if they have been very naughty. Good point about factions though.
                              Message 14 of 28 , Feb 26, 2013
                                I still feel the Temple of Ksarul would deny deny deny. As long as its plausible. Especially if they have been very naughty. Good point about factions though. If the attack was mounted by a faction within the Temple, then there may be a different faction that would acknowledge the body simply to embarrass their rivals.

                                However, I totally agree about clans. The Temple might deny, but if the deceased man's *clan* ever learns it was their guy, I feel they would step forward to claim the body even if they have to take a shamtla hit. Clans take care of their own.

                                --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Heath <malcolmpdx@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I'm going to have to disagree with much of what's been said so far...but of
                                > course add the proviso that this is just for my personal version of Tekumel.
                                >
                                > Yes, the Temple of the Doomed Prince of the Blue Room has, as it's
                                > operating principal, the idea of the accumulation of knowledge and power
                                > for selfish ends, specifically the selfish ends of the institution as a
                                > whole, but also for it's practitioners. However, they are still Tsolyani.
                                > They don't get a pass on other forms of noble action, just because they're
                                > sneaky.
                                >
                                > My take:
                                >
                                > If the temple was behind sending the fellow to attack the PCs, and were so
                                > dishonorable (and illegal) to do so without him having any identifying
                                > insignia, and to do so above ground, in a city, and during the day, then
                                > something REALLY major is going on. I have no idea what the PCs did to
                                > generate this issue...but it's well past the norm for this sort of thing at
                                > this point. In order to even authorize such an attack, the Temple would
                                > have had to agree at it's highest levels that the attendant risk of
                                > breaking the Concordat was worth the possible reward. I somehow doubt that
                                > this was the case, so let's move to the next possibility.
                                >
                                > If the temple wasn't behind it, it's possible that some faction of the
                                > temple was behind it. A secret society (one well out of hand, by the look
                                > of it) took it upon itself to place the Temple at huge political risk, and
                                > sopped things a bit by having one of it's (obviously fanatical) adherents
                                > attack someone incognito, and during the day. That the attacker was well
                                > and clearly out of their mind and a fanatic is clear here - who else would
                                > have agreed to a) break the Concordat and b) do it anonymously, with the
                                > knowledge that should he fail, his body would not be returned to his clan,
                                > nor would his temple be liable, and run the risk of being tossed with the
                                > other clanless dead onto the corpse pile at the edge of town? And if it's
                                > not a secret society full of bat-shit insane fanatics, then
                                >
                                > It was a solo job, on the head of the individual, who as we have previously
                                > comprehended, was nuts. I wonder how someone who was willing to do this
                                > ever got into the position of being trusted enough to become a powerful
                                > sorcerer?
                                >
                                > Given this...what should the PCs do? What would the Temple want them to
                                > do? What would the clan of the deceased want?
                                >
                                > The Clan would want it's member back, even if it was just to disown him and
                                > toss him on the heap themselves. He's theirs, it's their shame, they would
                                > want to deal with it. However, without any markings, it's going to be hard
                                > for this to happen.
                                >
                                > The Temple likewise would probably actively appreciate the return of their
                                > priest. Either they know, in which case, they'll want a chance to spin
                                > this so that they're not hauled before an Imperial Court for breaking the
                                > Concordat; they don't know but someone in the temple does, in which case,
                                > they'll want to know so that they can get that secret society under control
                                > (because, damn, having some sect in your temple put you all at risk is NOT
                                > COOL); or even if it's just this one guy - what happened to him to make him
                                > all crazy? You can't have sorcerers running around doing that kinda stuff.
                                >
                                >
                                > The PCs have the most to gain here - a few options:
                                >
                                > 1) toss the guy on the trash heap and wash their hands. This doesn't
                                > really accomplish much.
                                > 2) drop the guy at the temple - if they do it publicly, their asking for
                                > some sort of response (even if it is just "why'd you do that?") from the
                                > Temple. Or quietly inform the temple that they have their guy, and could
                                > they come pick him up? In which case the Temple will likely show up with a
                                > bag of money, and some demands for quiet. Or maybe the temple would decide
                                > to do something different.
                                > 3) figure out what clan the guy was from - and tell them what happened.
                                > The Clan might very well want to go cause trouble at the temple. Probably
                                > will, in fact. At any rate, that might keep the temple on it's toes for a
                                > bit, and give the PCs a break. Or it might just piss the Temple off, in
                                > which case, things will get interesting.
                                >
                                > My point mainly being that this sort of thing (i.e. powerful sorcerer,
                                > incognito, breaking the Concordat) is not necessarily normal operating
                                > procedure for the Temple of Ksarul. And they're likely going to _have_ to
                                > respond, one way or another, to cover the damages or keep this quiet,
                                > because this is WAY out of line.
                                >
                                > Malcolm
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > 2013/2/26 Darren King <darrenking997@...>
                                >
                                > > **
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Justin's points are all pretty relevant to Tekumel in general- but not to
                                > > the Temple of Ksarul specifically. In both the situations Justin suggests-
                                > > sucking it up and accepting the Shamtla penalties to do the dead honour, or
                                > > repeating the attack to expunge the stain of defeat- these would fit very
                                > > well with many people on Tekumel. Just not the ones who join the Temple of
                                > > Ksarul.
                                > >
                                > > The worshippers of the Doomed Prince of the Blue Room are all secretive
                                > > schemers, and would never want to publically request the body of one of
                                > > their dead back in this manner- they would, as I suggested, simply let it
                                > > be given an ignoble burial and then try to steal it back for revification.
                                > >
                                > > But then, the whole matter came about because the Temple of Ksarul planned
                                > > to kidnap a boy with great magical potential and subject him to extensive
                                > > mind-control so that he joins them instead of another Temple. Given that
                                > > most Temples might not go quite this far with such under-handed tactics,
                                > > the Temples likely to act in the ways Justin suggests probably wouldn't
                                > > have got a Priest killed in this way in the first place.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 4:02 AM, Justin Akkerman <
                                > > justin.akkerman@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >> **
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >> G'Day, I am pretty new to Tekumel, so forgive me if I am really off base.
                                > >>
                                > >> In terms of wanting to get the body back of their fallen operative. Do
                                > >> they see that he was honorable in what he did, or does his failure indicate
                                > >> that he is not worthy? Historically here on earth, I think of two times in
                                > >> particular which might offer insight into what might drive the Ksarul to
                                > >> act. The first is what happens in the Trojan war with the bodies of
                                > >> Patroclus and Hector. Maybe there is a Priam who will ask for his son back?
                                > >> In this case the maltreatment of the corpse of an enemy is seen to be a
                                > >> great crime. In the Greek context not seeking redress and return of the
                                > >> corpse might even cause you to be haunted by the erynies. If it is not
                                > >> possible to get the bodies back, why not pay the Shamtla? Is the temple
                                > >> cheap or in a state of penury? Will a quick payment allow them to revive
                                > >> their lost clan member? Maybe, since his clan is not known, they could use
                                > >> an intermediary to get a better price.
                                > >>
                                > >> Another time is the cycle of the Popol Vuh. The father and uncle of the
                                > >> hero are drawn into the underworld and cheated by the gods. They are slain
                                > >> and sacrificed. Their sons who are better than the fathers, they are
                                > >> semi-mortal and semi-divine, go back and repeat the acts of the fathers,
                                > >> but they do not make the same mistakes that their ancestors did. They, in
                                > >> the end, are victorious over the gods and dictate terms to the gods. This
                                > >> reflects the cyclical view of time that the Maya held. Actions flowing from
                                > >> this is that they may want to erase the dishonour from the previous attack
                                > >> by doubling down and crushing the clan-house that they failed to overcome
                                > >> the first time. This would repeat the past but with the "correct" outcome.
                                > >>
                                > >> Another option is to keep challenging the offending clan members to duels
                                > >> until they Ksarul feel that their honour has been restored, or they have
                                > >> eliminated a similarly talented member from the opposing clan.
                                > >> The first option fits with a linear view of time. You live , you die and
                                > >> who ever is left, picks up the pieces. The second fits with a cyclical view
                                > >> of time. The same things happen over and over. I we all die or descendants
                                > >> will set things right and thus we win.
                                > >> On 26 February 2013 14:36, Howard <kokigami@...> wrote:
                                > >>
                                > >>> **
                                > >>>
                                > >>>
                                > >>> interesting. What is the most interesting possible response? I should
                                > >>> think his clan would be wanting the body. I should think that the Ksarul
                                > >>> temple might try to spin this, so that the party is suspected of striping
                                > >>> the corpse to hide the identity. I should probably read the blog report..
                                > >>> don't know if their is anyway for them to pull that off.
                                > >>>
                                > >>> I should think it not bosun for a member of temple Ksarul to go
                                > >>> incognito. They would be expected to do so.. What kind of damage would have
                                > >>> to be repaid? If he is as powerful as I suspect, I could certainly see the
                                > >>> clan feeling that it was worth it.. Can there be any legal defence made for
                                > >>> the fight?
                                > >>>
                                > >>> just brain storming.
                                > >>>
                                > >>>
                                > >>>
                                > >>>
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Howard
                                I have been thinking on this. I take it this is in Jakalla. I should think there would be an official investigation into the disturbance. The body, in my view,
                                Message 15 of 28 , Feb 27, 2013
                                  I have been thinking on this. I take it this is in Jakalla. I should think there would be an official investigation into the disturbance. The body, in my view, would be taken by the OAL, as this might lead to charges posted by the imperium for violation of the concordat. the Imperium has both means and motive to revive the body to identify the assailant. This may also lead to imperial interest in our young savant.. something he probably doesn't want..

                                  The temple would, in this case, want to acquire, or dispose of the body if they could. Or a part of the body. I am reminded of a scene, i think in the mitlanyal, of a revivification gone bad because the soul had already been reclaimed by another group that managed to obtain enough of the body. This could be used, and allows you to recycle the NPC.. (I could see him sacrificing a body part prior to the attack, for this exact eventuality.. If I die, do the ritual.. it rebuilds the body, and reunites it with the soul...) I would suggest his junk be in a bottle back at temple.. but they would still want to destroy the body.. It doesn't do well to have the imperium id the priest from a death mask made from his corpse.

                                  but a Ksarul attempt to steal the body could be good as well. (bribes, and a replacement corpse would be the procedure, i should think.. Someone close enough, but from the foreign quarter.. might lead to international tension.. but.. that never hurt the temple..)



                                  Unless the clan doesn't know he is A in Jakalla, or B, a powerful priest of Ksarul (both possible, considering he is a powerful priest of K) I think they would notice him not coming home. Unless his clan is also strongly tied to K, they won't be that interested in acting dishonourably to his corpse or to society. The honorable thing would be to claim the body, if they become aware, which seems likely, considering the high profile of the attack. They would suspect he was capable. However, if he then reappears.. they can start to deny everything..


                                  a lot of branches on the tree of time could sprout from this event..


                                  --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, "Darren" <darrenking997@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > A situation has arisen in my campaign that I thought I'd share with the group, in the hope that some of the veterans might shed some light on the matter and/or confirm my thinking is along the right lines.
                                  >
                                  > In the last session, a Sorcerer-Priest of Ksarul attempted to kidnap one of the PCs due to a long-running situation. He approached the building the PCs were staying in (a White Stone property which, apart from the wing the PCs are in has been sub-let to the Blue Kirtle Clan) with a half-dozen armed guards. The subtle approach failed, two PCs resisting the blanketing of the building with Soporiferousness spells, and a fight ensued. By using some scrolls and an Eye, the PCs were able to drive off the attack, killing the Sorcerer-Priest in the process. Several members of the Blue Kirtle Clan were also killed in the exchange of spells.
                                  >
                                  > The PCs are fully aware of the fact that the corpse of their attacker was a Sorcerer-Priest of Ksarul. They don't have any means to prove this, however, and don't know his name. The question that occurred to us is- what happens to the body?
                                  >
                                  > As it stands, he's an unknown nobody (he's from out of town, and wore nothing that could identify his Clan or Temple Allegiance). Therefore, he's going to be given the burial of a Nakome Pauper, unless someone steps forward to claim the body. The problem there is that because he was killed whilst attacking the PCs, on their Clan's property where he had no business being, if he's claimed then the Clan or Temple claiming him will be the subject of substantial Shamtla claims.
                                  >
                                  > Exactly how much of a problem would it be to the average Tsolyani to leave their relative's corpse to such a fate in order to avoid Shamtla claims? (I'm not even asking about the Temple of Ksarul, of course they'll keep quiet.) For followers of Sarku, there'd obviously be no question they'd want the body returned- but how much does that matter to the other faiths? The very existence of the Cities of the Dead shows that proper burial is a big deal, but is it a big enough deal to pay Shamtla just to get a Clan-cousin a proper burial?
                                  >
                                  > Any thoughts on the matter will be very welcome.
                                  >
                                • Darren King
                                  Well, that definitely gives me one of the events for the next session. Somehow, in the midst of all that was going on, I d completely neglected to consider the
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Feb 27, 2013
                                    Well, that definitely gives me one of the events for the next session. Somehow, in the midst of all that was going on, I'd completely neglected to consider the reaction of the OAL to the attack. Thinking on it, an attack on members of a High Clan on their Clan's property by some unknown Sorcerer are exactly the sort of thing that would have them wondering just what exactly is going on here. The OAL will definitely want to know why people are throwing spells at each other in the night heart of Jakalla in the middle of Festival season.

                                    For that matter, the Governor of Jakalla would probably like to know that as well. I suspect that once Sorcery is involved, people start taking an event much more seriously, since it's a pretty clear indicator that powerful people are involved somewhere.


                                    On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Howard <kokigami@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    I have been thinking on this. I take it this is in Jakalla. I should think there would be an official investigation into the disturbance. The body, in my view, would be taken by the OAL, as this might lead to charges posted by the imperium for violation of the concordat. the Imperium has both means and motive to revive the body to identify the assailant. This may also lead to imperial interest in our young savant.. something he probably doesn't want..

                                    The temple would, in this case, want to acquire, or dispose of the body if they could. Or a part of the body. I am reminded of a scene, i think in the mitlanyal, of a revivification gone bad because the soul had already been reclaimed by another group that managed to obtain enough of the body. This could be used, and allows you to recycle the NPC.. (I could see him sacrificing a body part prior to the attack, for this exact eventuality.. If I die, do the ritual.. it rebuilds the body, and reunites it with the soul...) I would suggest his junk be in a bottle back at temple.. but they would still want to destroy the body.. It doesn't do well to have the imperium id the priest from a death mask made from his corpse.

                                    but a Ksarul attempt to steal the body could be good as well. (bribes, and a replacement corpse would be the procedure, i should think.. Someone close enough, but from the foreign quarter.. might lead to international tension.. but.. that never hurt the temple..)

                                    Unless the clan doesn't know he is A in Jakalla, or B, a powerful priest of Ksarul (both possible, considering he is a powerful priest of K) I think they would notice him not coming home. Unless his clan is also strongly tied to K, they won't be that interested in acting dishonourably to his corpse or to society. The honorable thing would be to claim the body, if they become aware, which seems likely, considering the high profile of the attack. They would suspect he was capable. However, if he then reappears.. they can start to deny everything..


                                    a lot of branches on the tree of time could sprout from this event..



                                    --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, "Darren" wrote:
                                    >
                                    > A situation has arisen in my campaign that I thought I'd share with the group, in the hope that some of the veterans might shed some light on the matter and/or confirm my thinking is along the right lines.
                                    >
                                    > In the last session, a Sorcerer-Priest of Ksarul attempted to kidnap one of the PCs due to a long-running situation. He approached the building the PCs were staying in (a White Stone property which, apart from the wing the PCs are in has been sub-let to the Blue Kirtle Clan) with a half-dozen armed guards. The subtle approach failed, two PCs resisting the blanketing of the building with Soporiferousness spells, and a fight ensued. By using some scrolls and an Eye, the PCs were able to drive off the attack, killing the Sorcerer-Priest in the process. Several members of the Blue Kirtle Clan were also killed in the exchange of spells.
                                    >
                                    > The PCs are fully aware of the fact that the corpse of their attacker was a Sorcerer-Priest of Ksarul. They don't have any means to prove this, however, and don't know his name. The question that occurred to us is- what happens to the body?
                                    >
                                    > As it stands, he's an unknown nobody (he's from out of town, and wore nothing that could identify his Clan or Temple Allegiance). Therefore, he's going to be given the burial of a Nakome Pauper, unless someone steps forward to claim the body. The problem there is that because he was killed whilst attacking the PCs, on their Clan's property where he had no business being, if he's claimed then the Clan or Temple claiming him will be the subject of substantial Shamtla claims.
                                    >
                                    > Exactly how much of a problem would it be to the average Tsolyani to leave their relative's corpse to such a fate in order to avoid Shamtla claims? (I'm not even asking about the Temple of Ksarul, of course they'll keep quiet.) For followers of Sarku, there'd obviously be no question they'd want the body returned- but how much does that matter to the other faiths? The very existence of the Cities of the Dead shows that proper burial is a big deal, but is it a big enough deal to pay Shamtla just to get a Clan-cousin a proper burial?
                                    >
                                    > Any thoughts on the matter will be very welcome.
                                    >


                                  • George Hammond
                                    ... Did the attack break the Concordat? The Concordat is an agreement between the Temples. It brought an end to religious wars. It creates a de-militarized
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Feb 27, 2013
                                      On Feb 26, 2013, at 6:12 PM, Malcolm Heath wrote:

                                      > If the temple was behind sending the fellow to attack the PCs, and were so dishonorable (and illegal) to do so without him having any identifying insignia, and to do so above ground, in a city, and during the day, then something REALLY major is going on. I have no idea what the PCs did to generate this issue...but it's well past the norm for this sort of thing at this point. In order to even authorize such an attack, the Temple would have had to agree at it's highest levels that the attendant risk of breaking the Concordat was worth the possible reward.

                                      Did the attack break the Concordat? The Concordat is an agreement between the Temples. It brought an end to religious wars. It creates a "de-militarized zone" where Temple vs. Temple conflict may not extend to physical or sorcerous violence.

                                      In this case, a priest attempted to kidnap a civilian. Seems to me the attack was more Temple vs. Clan than Temple vs. Temple. No doubt it violated various laws of the Empire, but I'm not sure it broke the Concordat too. I think it's a bit murky, the boundaries of what constitutes inter-temple conflict are not at all clear, but this seems to me a matter for shamtla and the civil courts, unless the victims were priests.

                                      fwiw,

                                      George
                                    • Darren King
                                      That was how I d interpreted the situation regarding the Concordat myself. It s the whole rationale for why this Priest of Ksarul and his backers (main Temple
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Feb 28, 2013
                                        That was how I'd interpreted the situation regarding the Concordat myself. It's the whole rationale for why this Priest of Ksarul and his backers (main Temple or Secret Society) is going so far to capture Kemuel- they have a limited window of opportunity before he actually joins the Temple of Dlamelish. Once he's in, even as an Acolyte, he's got the full protection of the Concordat. Before that, the worst case scenario would be a loss of face and paying out Shamtla.

                                        Given how powerful Kemuel will one day become, given his sorcerous potential, at least someone inside the Temple of Ksarul decided it was worth the risk to secure him for their Temple instead.

                                        Looking back over the sessions leading up to this, though, I can't help but be struck how the Temple of Ksarul that sent the Priest on this mission was in Urmish- and nothing happened until the PCs were out of that city. At the time, it was just a case of me as GM pacing the encounters to make sure something interesting happens in each session. In retrospect, though, it could quite easily be a deliberate move that it was so.

                                        Since the Priest will have arrived at the Jakalla Temple and used the various seals, pass-phrases and whatever the Tsolyani equivalent of a secret handshake is to secure support for his mission... I fins myself also wondering if he bothered to tell them what the mission was. Very possibly the reaction to that would have been "You want to do this in OUR city?", and the Jakalla Temple is now suddenly having a fit of apoplexy as they realise what this out-of-town Priest was up too and struggle to cover up any connection he might have to them.


                                        On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 2:26 AM, George Hammond <worldsmith@...> wrote:
                                         


                                        On Feb 26, 2013, at 6:12 PM, Malcolm Heath wrote:

                                        > If the temple was behind sending the fellow to attack the PCs, and were so dishonorable (and illegal) to do so without him having any identifying insignia, and to do so above ground, in a city, and during the day, then something REALLY major is going on. I have no idea what the PCs did to generate this issue...but it's well past the norm for this sort of thing at this point. In order to even authorize such an attack, the Temple would have had to agree at it's highest levels that the attendant risk of breaking the Concordat was worth the possible reward.

                                        Did the attack break the Concordat? The Concordat is an agreement between the Temples. It brought an end to religious wars. It creates a "de-militarized zone" where Temple vs. Temple conflict may not extend to physical or sorcerous violence.

                                        In this case, a priest attempted to kidnap a civilian. Seems to me the attack was more Temple vs. Clan than Temple vs. Temple. No doubt it violated various laws of the Empire, but I'm not sure it broke the Concordat too. I think it's a bit murky, the boundaries of what constitutes inter-temple conflict are not at all clear, but this seems to me a matter for shamtla and the civil courts, unless the victims were priests.

                                        fwiw,

                                        George


                                      • Malcolm Heath
                                        George has corrected me, correctly. Chegukh. That being said, I still think having an unmarked, powerful sorcerer come and attack a clanhouse in a city during
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Feb 28, 2013
                                          George has corrected me, correctly.  Chegukh.  

                                          That being said, I still think having an unmarked, powerful sorcerer come and attack a clanhouse in a city during the day to be at the very least a stunning breach of etiquette, and more likely definitely worth the OAL or someone else in authority come calling about.

                                           


                                          2013/2/27 George Hammond <worldsmith@...>
                                           


                                          On Feb 26, 2013, at 6:12 PM, Malcolm Heath wrote:

                                          > If the temple was behind sending the fellow to attack the PCs, and were so dishonorable (and illegal) to do so without him having any identifying insignia, and to do so above ground, in a city, and during the day, then something REALLY major is going on. I have no idea what the PCs did to generate this issue...but it's well past the norm for this sort of thing at this point. In order to even authorize such an attack, the Temple would have had to agree at it's highest levels that the attendant risk of breaking the Concordat was worth the possible reward.

                                          Did the attack break the Concordat? The Concordat is an agreement between the Temples. It brought an end to religious wars. It creates a "de-militarized zone" where Temple vs. Temple conflict may not extend to physical or sorcerous violence.

                                          In this case, a priest attempted to kidnap a civilian. Seems to me the attack was more Temple vs. Clan than Temple vs. Temple. No doubt it violated various laws of the Empire, but I'm not sure it broke the Concordat too. I think it's a bit murky, the boundaries of what constitutes inter-temple conflict are not at all clear, but this seems to me a matter for shamtla and the civil courts, unless the victims were priests.

                                          fwiw,

                                          George


                                        • Darren King
                                          It wasn t during the day (as I ve said elsewhere), the attack took place in the small hours of the morning, when Jakalla was winding down from all the parties
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Feb 28, 2013
                                            It wasn't during the day (as I've said elsewhere), the attack took place in the small hours of the morning, when Jakalla was winding down from all the parties that night.

                                            Apart from this, though, it's a good point- the fact that Sorcery was involved will likely make this affair of interest to someone higher up the ladder than a lowly City Guard Tirrikamu. The Governor of Jakalla will likely send someone along to find out exactly what was going on- I suspect rulers of cities tend to not like being in the dark as to why sorcerous battles took place in their domains. The OAL would probably also turn up to investigate, the fact that 99% of Sorcerers are trained by the Temples makes the involvement of magic a good reason to at least suspect the Concordat might have been breached. And the OAL also strikes me as a group of people who doesn't like not know what was going on with an affair like this.


                                            On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Malcolm Heath <malcolmpdx@...> wrote:
                                             

                                            George has corrected me, correctly.  Chegukh.  

                                            That being said, I still think having an unmarked, powerful sorcerer come and attack a clanhouse in a city during the day to be at the very least a stunning breach of etiquette, and more likely definitely worth the OAL or someone else in authority come calling about.

                                             


                                            2013/2/27 George Hammond <worldsmith@...>
                                             


                                            On Feb 26, 2013, at 6:12 PM, Malcolm Heath wrote:

                                            > If the temple was behind sending the fellow to attack the PCs, and were so dishonorable (and illegal) to do so without him having any identifying insignia, and to do so above ground, in a city, and during the day, then something REALLY major is going on. I have no idea what the PCs did to generate this issue...but it's well past the norm for this sort of thing at this point. In order to even authorize such an attack, the Temple would have had to agree at it's highest levels that the attendant risk of breaking the Concordat was worth the possible reward.

                                            Did the attack break the Concordat? The Concordat is an agreement between the Temples. It brought an end to religious wars. It creates a "de-militarized zone" where Temple vs. Temple conflict may not extend to physical or sorcerous violence.

                                            In this case, a priest attempted to kidnap a civilian. Seems to me the attack was more Temple vs. Clan than Temple vs. Temple. No doubt it violated various laws of the Empire, but I'm not sure it broke the Concordat too. I think it's a bit murky, the boundaries of what constitutes inter-temple conflict are not at all clear, but this seems to me a matter for shamtla and the civil courts, unless the victims were priests.

                                            fwiw,

                                            George



                                          • Howard
                                            Have now read the blog post on this. The OAL would be interested in the potential breach of the concordat, but may louse interest when they discover the boy
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Feb 28, 2013
                                              Have now read the blog post on this. The OAL would be interested in the potential breach of the concordat, but may louse interest when they discover the boy wonder isn't a member of a temple. At least on the surface. they will no doubt take an interest in the boy wonder. He would make an excellent priest in the battle magic contingents.. doomkill go BOOM..

                                              From what I am seeing, boy wonder threw some spells at the party - good early deceit got him clear, then he blasted a high level priest who was passing by. At least that would be the temples position. The claimed thugs are gone.. (Unless the Blue Kirtle saw them leaving..still, they could be claimed to have been body guards body servants) And the Blue Kirtle were similarly attacked by this boy wonder. He is a danger to society.. says the temple... he needs must be taken into custody of someone who can place a damper on him, until he learns to control his power. They might strongly recommend an Iron collar for him, if he is to go about freely. certainly, they could present a plausible scenario, after the display at the party.



                                              --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, George Hammond <worldsmith@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > On Feb 26, 2013, at 6:12 PM, Malcolm Heath wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > If the temple was behind sending the fellow to attack the PCs, and were so dishonorable (and illegal) to do so without him having any identifying insignia, and to do so above ground, in a city, and during the day, then something REALLY major is going on. I have no idea what the PCs did to generate this issue...but it's well past the norm for this sort of thing at this point. In order to even authorize such an attack, the Temple would have had to agree at it's highest levels that the attendant risk of breaking the Concordat was worth the possible reward.
                                              >
                                              > Did the attack break the Concordat? The Concordat is an agreement between the Temples. It brought an end to religious wars. It creates a "de-militarized zone" where Temple vs. Temple conflict may not extend to physical or sorcerous violence.
                                              >
                                              > In this case, a priest attempted to kidnap a civilian. Seems to me the attack was more Temple vs. Clan than Temple vs. Temple. No doubt it violated various laws of the Empire, but I'm not sure it broke the Concordat too. I think it's a bit murky, the boundaries of what constitutes inter-temple conflict are not at all clear, but this seems to me a matter for shamtla and the civil courts, unless the victims were priests.
                                              >
                                              > fwiw,
                                              >
                                              > George
                                              >
                                            • Darren King
                                              A very interesting counter-argument to what the PCs are trying to offer as being the case. Hmm... The Temple of Hru u could now enter the field as people
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Feb 28, 2013
                                                A very interesting counter-argument to what the PCs are trying to offer as being the case. Hmm... The Temple of Hru'u could now enter the field as people trying to claim Kemuel. "We are willing to defer claims of Shamtla, because this boy so clearly cannot control his immense magic power, and is in need of proper teaching rather than punishment- teaching which the Temple of Hru'u is more than happy to provide him with".

                                                The OAL connection also has some very good possibilities. I've been wracking my brains for a long-term way to have the PCs get moved to whatever adventure plot I come up with after Kemuel is trained. The OAL could very easily give this reason- they'd be interested in having Kemuel's services, as stated. I'm now thinking of turning up the heat on the PCs, having various powerful factions threaten to cause them grief- and then the OAL quietly steps in and persuades them all to let things drop. Naturally, the PCs must understand that they'll have to repay this favour- probably for the rest of their natural lives...


                                                On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 11:00 PM, Howard <kokigami@...> wrote:
                                                 

                                                Have now read the blog post on this. The OAL would be interested in the potential breach of the concordat, but may louse interest when they discover the boy wonder isn't a member of a temple. At least on the surface. they will no doubt take an interest in the boy wonder. He would make an excellent priest in the battle magic contingents.. doomkill go BOOM..

                                                From what I am seeing, boy wonder threw some spells at the party - good early deceit got him clear, then he blasted a high level priest who was passing by. At least that would be the temples position. The claimed thugs are gone.. (Unless the Blue Kirtle saw them leaving..still, they could be claimed to have been body guards body servants) And the Blue Kirtle were similarly attacked by this boy wonder. He is a danger to society.. says the temple... he needs must be taken into custody of someone who can place a damper on him, until he learns to control his power. They might strongly recommend an Iron collar for him, if he is to go about freely. certainly, they could present a plausible scenario, after the display at the party.



                                                --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, George Hammond wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > On Feb 26, 2013, at 6:12 PM, Malcolm Heath wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > If the temple was behind sending the fellow to attack the PCs, and were so dishonorable (and illegal) to do so without him having any identifying insignia, and to do so above ground, in a city, and during the day, then something REALLY major is going on. I have no idea what the PCs did to generate this issue...but it's well past the norm for this sort of thing at this point. In order to even authorize such an attack, the Temple would have had to agree at it's highest levels that the attendant risk of breaking the Concordat was worth the possible reward.
                                                >
                                                > Did the attack break the Concordat? The Concordat is an agreement between the Temples. It brought an end to religious wars. It creates a "de-militarized zone" where Temple vs. Temple conflict may not extend to physical or sorcerous violence.
                                                >
                                                > In this case, a priest attempted to kidnap a civilian. Seems to me the attack was more Temple vs. Clan than Temple vs. Temple. No doubt it violated various laws of the Empire, but I'm not sure it broke the Concordat too. I think it's a bit murky, the boundaries of what constitutes inter-temple conflict are not at all clear, but this seems to me a matter for shamtla and the civil courts, unless the victims were priests.
                                                >
                                                > fwiw,
                                                >
                                                > George
                                                >


                                              • Victor Raymond
                                                You definitely have a good sense of how this all works.
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Feb 28, 2013

                                                  You definitely have a good sense of how this all works.

                                                  On Feb 28, 2013 5:19 PM, "Darren King" <darrenking997@...> wrote:
                                                   

                                                  A very interesting counter-argument to what the PCs are trying to offer as being the case. Hmm... The Temple of Hru'u could now enter the field as people trying to claim Kemuel. "We are willing to defer claims of Shamtla, because this boy so clearly cannot control his immense magic power, and is in need of proper teaching rather than punishment- teaching which the Temple of Hru'u is more than happy to provide him with".

                                                  The OAL connection also has some very good possibilities. I've been wracking my brains for a long-term way to have the PCs get moved to whatever adventure plot I come up with after Kemuel is trained. The OAL could very easily give this reason- they'd be interested in having Kemuel's services, as stated. I'm now thinking of turning up the heat on the PCs, having various powerful factions threaten to cause them grief- and then the OAL quietly steps in and persuades them all to let things drop. Naturally, the PCs must understand that they'll have to repay this favour- probably for the rest of their natural lives...


                                                  On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 11:00 PM, Howard <kokigami@...> wrote:
                                                   

                                                  Have now read the blog post on this. The OAL would be interested in the potential breach of the concordat, but may louse interest when they discover the boy wonder isn't a member of a temple. At least on the surface. they will no doubt take an interest in the boy wonder. He would make an excellent priest in the battle magic contingents.. doomkill go BOOM..

                                                  From what I am seeing, boy wonder threw some spells at the party - good early deceit got him clear, then he blasted a high level priest who was passing by. At least that would be the temples position. The claimed thugs are gone.. (Unless the Blue Kirtle saw them leaving..still, they could be claimed to have been body guards body servants) And the Blue Kirtle were similarly attacked by this boy wonder. He is a danger to society.. says the temple... he needs must be taken into custody of someone who can place a damper on him, until he learns to control his power. They might strongly recommend an Iron collar for him, if he is to go about freely. certainly, they could present a plausible scenario, after the display at the party.



                                                  --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, George Hammond wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > On Feb 26, 2013, at 6:12 PM, Malcolm Heath wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > If the temple was behind sending the fellow to attack the PCs, and were so dishonorable (and illegal) to do so without him having any identifying insignia, and to do so above ground, in a city, and during the day, then something REALLY major is going on. I have no idea what the PCs did to generate this issue...but it's well past the norm for this sort of thing at this point. In order to even authorize such an attack, the Temple would have had to agree at it's highest levels that the attendant risk of breaking the Concordat was worth the possible reward.
                                                  >
                                                  > Did the attack break the Concordat? The Concordat is an agreement between the Temples. It brought an end to religious wars. It creates a "de-militarized zone" where Temple vs. Temple conflict may not extend to physical or sorcerous violence.
                                                  >
                                                  > In this case, a priest attempted to kidnap a civilian. Seems to me the attack was more Temple vs. Clan than Temple vs. Temple. No doubt it violated various laws of the Empire, but I'm not sure it broke the Concordat too. I think it's a bit murky, the boundaries of what constitutes inter-temple conflict are not at all clear, but this seems to me a matter for shamtla and the civil courts, unless the victims were priests.
                                                  >
                                                  > fwiw,
                                                  >
                                                  > George
                                                  >


                                                • Howard
                                                  ... Chortle, Chortle, Snort.. excellent.. I suspect his own clan is gonna be a bit miffed as well, that he has drawn so much attention. His local clan could
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Mar 1, 2013
                                                    --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, Darren King <darrenking997@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > A very interesting counter-argument to what the PCs are trying to offer as
                                                    > being the case. Hmm... The Temple of Hru'u could now enter the field as
                                                    > people trying to claim Kemuel. "We are willing to defer claims of Shamtla,
                                                    > because this boy so clearly cannot control his immense magic power, and is
                                                    > in need of proper teaching rather than punishment- teaching which the
                                                    > Temple of Hru'u is more than happy to provide him with".
                                                    >
                                                    > The OAL connection also has some very good possibilities. I've been
                                                    > wracking my brains for a long-term way to have the PCs get moved to
                                                    > whatever adventure plot I come up with after Kemuel is trained. The OAL
                                                    > could very easily give this reason- they'd be interested in having Kemuel's
                                                    > services, as stated. I'm now thinking of turning up the heat on the PCs,
                                                    > having various powerful factions threaten to cause them grief- and then the
                                                    > OAL quietly steps in and persuades them all to let things drop. Naturally,
                                                    > the PCs must understand that they'll have to repay this favour- probably
                                                    > for the rest of their natural lives...
                                                    >
                                                    >

                                                    Chortle, Chortle, Snort..

                                                    excellent..

                                                    I suspect his own clan is gonna be a bit miffed as well, that he has drawn so much attention. His local clan could lose their prize and the Jakalla faction could end up embarrassed. Nothing so big as to be kicked out.. but a tighter leash, if they keep him out of imperial training. I can't see any way for them to put the cat back in the hat..

                                                    such fun..
                                                  • cnm_cm
                                                    Since there is a corpse in this tale, the Temple of Durritlamish might offer a solution on all accounts. Leave the body in their care during the legal
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Mar 1, 2013
                                                      Since there is a corpse in this tale, the Temple of Durritlamish might offer a solution on all accounts.  Leave the body in their care during the legal wrangling.  It might be a solution that shamtla is paid and therefore an 'owning' party of the corpse is established.  That party can assign the contentious corpse to eternal care in the Temple of D, not a voluntary conversion of course.  This is a matter where adjudication could be quite lengthy.  Wouldn't it be useful to maintain the corpse with options for a small recurrent fee?  It seems as viable as other constraints for indefinite suppression of the being.  Rather like putting the matter on the shelf (in a crypt) until matters sort themselves out.  If necessary, the Temple of D can offer further visiting privileges, etc.     
                                                       
                                                      In a message dated 3/1/2013 3:00:39 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, kokigami@... writes:
                                                       



                                                      --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, Darren King wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > A very interesting counter-argument to what the PCs are trying to offer as
                                                      > being the case. Hmm... The Temple of Hru'u could now enter the field as
                                                      > people trying to claim Kemuel. "We are willing to defer claims of Shamtla,
                                                      > because this boy so clearly cannot control his immense magic power, and is
                                                      > in need of proper teaching rather than punishment- teaching which the
                                                      > Temple of Hru'u is more than happy to provide him with".
                                                      >
                                                      > The OAL connection also has some very good possibilities. I've been
                                                      > wracking my brains for a long-term way to have the PCs get moved to
                                                      > whatever adventure plot I come up with after Kemuel is trained. The OAL
                                                      > could very easily give this reason- they'd be interested in having Kemuel's
                                                      > services, as stated. I'm now thinking of turning up the heat on the PCs,
                                                      > having various powerful factions threaten to cause them grief- and then the
                                                      > OAL quietly steps in and persuades them all to let things drop. Naturally,
                                                      > the PCs must understand that they'll have to repay this favour- probably
                                                      > for the rest of their natural lives...
                                                      >
                                                      >

                                                      Chortle, Chortle, Snort..

                                                      excellent..

                                                      I suspect his own clan is gonna be a bit miffed as well, that he has drawn so much attention. His local clan could lose their prize and the Jakalla faction could end up embarrassed. Nothing so big as to be kicked out.. but a tighter leash, if they keep him out of imperial training. I can't see any way for them to put the cat back in the hat..

                                                      such fun..

                                                    • Brett Slocum
                                                      At this rate, we should think of a way to get more temples involved and have a real fight over the body. Anyone have an idea to get Hnalla and Dilinala into
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Mar 1, 2013
                                                        At this rate, we should think of a way to get more temples involved and have a real fight over the body. Anyone have an idea to get Hnalla and Dilinala into the fray? Maybe we can get all 20!

                                                        ---
                                                        Brett Slocum <slocum@...>


                                                        On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 5:25 PM, <chuckgame2@...> wrote:
                                                         

                                                        Since there is a corpse in this tale, the Temple of Durritlamish might offer a solution on all accounts.  Leave the body in their care during the legal wrangling.  It might be a solution that shamtla is paid and therefore an 'owning' party of the corpse is established.  That party can assign the contentious corpse to eternal care in the Temple of D, not a voluntary conversion of course.  This is a matter where adjudication could be quite lengthy.  Wouldn't it be useful to maintain the corpse with options for a small recurrent fee?  It seems as viable as other constraints for indefinite suppression of the being.  Rather like putting the matter on the shelf (in a crypt) until matters sort themselves out.  If necessary, the Temple of D can offer further visiting privileges, etc.     
                                                         
                                                        In a message dated 3/1/2013 3:00:39 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, kokigami@... writes:
                                                         



                                                        --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, Darren King wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > A very interesting counter-argument to what the PCs are trying to offer as
                                                        > being the case. Hmm... The Temple of Hru'u could now enter the field as
                                                        > people trying to claim Kemuel. "We are willing to defer claims of Shamtla,
                                                        > because this boy so clearly cannot control his immense magic power, and is
                                                        > in need of proper teaching rather than punishment- teaching which the
                                                        > Temple of Hru'u is more than happy to provide him with".
                                                        >
                                                        > The OAL connection also has some very good possibilities. I've been
                                                        > wracking my brains for a long-term way to have the PCs get moved to
                                                        > whatever adventure plot I come up with after Kemuel is trained. The OAL
                                                        > could very easily give this reason- they'd be interested in having Kemuel's
                                                        > services, as stated. I'm now thinking of turning up the heat on the PCs,
                                                        > having various powerful factions threaten to cause them grief- and then the
                                                        > OAL quietly steps in and persuades them all to let things drop. Naturally,
                                                        > the PCs must understand that they'll have to repay this favour- probably
                                                        > for the rest of their natural lives...
                                                        >
                                                        >

                                                        Chortle, Chortle, Snort..

                                                        excellent..

                                                        I suspect his own clan is gonna be a bit miffed as well, that he has drawn so much attention. His local clan could lose their prize and the Jakalla faction could end up embarrassed. Nothing so big as to be kicked out.. but a tighter leash, if they keep him out of imperial training. I can't see any way for them to put the cat back in the hat..

                                                        such fun..


                                                      • Darren King
                                                        The implications of the affair do seem to be getting bigger and bigger. Given that I don t feel like having all the wrangling drag on indefinitely, but neither
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Mar 1, 2013
                                                          The implications of the affair do seem to be getting bigger and bigger. Given that I don't feel like having all the wrangling drag on indefinitely, but neither do I want to gloss over things so the players don't fail to grasp how serious it all is...

                                                          Just how likely is it, do people think, that the Governor of Jakalla- the representative of Imperial Authority, after all- might assign someone to look into things? Given the groups getting involved, the scarcity of actual hard facts against the complexity of what was going on (the PCs don't know everything either), and the potential for many Shamtla claims and ongoing bad feeling; would it be fitting that someone is appointed to investigate the matter? And that, from a legal point of view, whatever he finally declares to be the Truth of the Matter after he's heard all the testimony and considered the arguments shall be held to be the Truth?

                                                          I can see that this affair has the potential to cause a great deal of trouble in Jakalla if the various parties are all left to their own devices- someone in authority would probably prefer things be settled. The solution I've proposed sounds like something that might happen in Tsolyanu to me, but I'm not sure if anything in the source material contradicts it.

                                                          As for the Temple of Durritlamish- that's an interesting point, I'm pretty sure that if nobody else wants the body and the Temples of either Sarku or Durritlamish stated that they wanted it, nobody would really object. So many things to consider...


                                                          On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:25 PM, <chuckgame2@...> wrote:
                                                           

                                                          Since there is a corpse in this tale, the Temple of Durritlamish might offer a solution on all accounts.  Leave the body in their care during the legal wrangling.  It might be a solution that shamtla is paid and therefore an 'owning' party of the corpse is established.  That party can assign the contentious corpse to eternal care in the Temple of D, not a voluntary conversion of course.  This is a matter where adjudication could be quite lengthy.  Wouldn't it be useful to maintain the corpse with options for a small recurrent fee?  It seems as viable as other constraints for indefinite suppression of the being.  Rather like putting the matter on the shelf (in a crypt) until matters sort themselves out.  If necessary, the Temple of D can offer further visiting privileges, etc.     
                                                           
                                                          In a message dated 3/1/2013 3:00:39 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, kokigami@... writes:
                                                           



                                                          --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, Darren King wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > A very interesting counter-argument to what the PCs are trying to offer as
                                                          > being the case. Hmm... The Temple of Hru'u could now enter the field as
                                                          > people trying to claim Kemuel. "We are willing to defer claims of Shamtla,
                                                          > because this boy so clearly cannot control his immense magic power, and is
                                                          > in need of proper teaching rather than punishment- teaching which the
                                                          > Temple of Hru'u is more than happy to provide him with".
                                                          >
                                                          > The OAL connection also has some very good possibilities. I've been
                                                          > wracking my brains for a long-term way to have the PCs get moved to
                                                          > whatever adventure plot I come up with after Kemuel is trained. The OAL
                                                          > could very easily give this reason- they'd be interested in having Kemuel's
                                                          > services, as stated. I'm now thinking of turning up the heat on the PCs,
                                                          > having various powerful factions threaten to cause them grief- and then the
                                                          > OAL quietly steps in and persuades them all to let things drop. Naturally,
                                                          > the PCs must understand that they'll have to repay this favour- probably
                                                          > for the rest of their natural lives...
                                                          >
                                                          >

                                                          Chortle, Chortle, Snort..

                                                          excellent..

                                                          I suspect his own clan is gonna be a bit miffed as well, that he has drawn so much attention. His local clan could lose their prize and the Jakalla faction could end up embarrassed. Nothing so big as to be kicked out.. but a tighter leash, if they keep him out of imperial training. I can't see any way for them to put the cat back in the hat..

                                                          such fun..


                                                        • cnm_cm
                                                          By far the simplest solution is that he OAL absorb the problem and notify all parties that there is an Imperial Resolution. Any further discussion will be
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Mar 1, 2013
                                                            By far the simplest solution is that he OAL absorb the problem and notify all parties that there is an Imperial Resolution.  Any further discussion will be conducted by the OAL, including those who even mention the incident.  This doesn't have to be the truth, but what is written in the Secret Book is not subject to circulation. This  incident will now be above the pay grade for the players and likely to cause them to disappear as well.  "Oh, where are they?  I think they went on an expedition to the Plains of Glass..." 
                                                             
                                                            In a message dated 3/1/2013 3:48:08 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, darrenking997@... writes:
                                                             

                                                            The implications of the affair do seem to be getting bigger and bigger. Given that I don't feel like having all the wrangling drag on indefinitely, but neither do I want to gloss over things so the players don't fail to grasp how serious it all is...

                                                            Just how likely is it, do people think, that the Governor of Jakalla- the representative of Imperial Authority, after all- might assign someone to look into things? Given the groups getting involved, the scarcity of actual hard facts against the complexity of what was going on (the PCs don't know everything either), and the potential for many Shamtla claims and ongoing bad feeling; would it be fitting that someone is appointed to investigate the matter? And that, from a legal point of view, whatever he finally declares to be the Truth of the Matter after he's heard all the testimony and considered the arguments shall be held to be the Truth?

                                                            I can see that this affair has the potential to cause a great deal of trouble in Jakalla if the various parties are all left to their own devices- someone in authority would probably prefer things be settled. The solution I've proposed sounds like something that might happen in Tsolyanu to me, but I'm not sure if anything in the source material contradicts it.

                                                            As for the Temple of Durritlamish- that's an interesting point, I'm pretty sure that if nobody else wants the body and the Temples of either Sarku or Durritlamish stated that they wanted it, nobody would really object. So many things to consider...


                                                            On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:25 PM, <chuckgame2@...> wrote:
                                                             

                                                            Since there is a corpse in this tale, the Temple of Durritlamish might offer a solution on all accounts.  Leave the body in their care during the legal wrangling.  It might be a solution that shamtla is paid and therefore an 'owning' party of the corpse is established.  That party can assign the contentious corpse to eternal care in the Temple of D, not a voluntary conversion of course.  This is a matter where adjudication could be quite lengthy.  Wouldn't it be useful to maintain the corpse with options for a small recurrent fee?  It seems as viable as other constraints for indefinite suppression of the being.  Rather like putting the matter on the shelf (in a crypt) until matters sort themselves out.  If necessary, the Temple of D can offer further visiting privileges, etc.     
                                                             
                                                            In a message dated 3/1/2013 3:00:39 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, kokigami@... writes:
                                                             



                                                            --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, Darren King wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > A very interesting counter-argument to what the PCs are trying to offer as
                                                            > being the case. Hmm... The Temple of Hru'u could now enter the field as
                                                            > people trying to claim Kemuel. "We are willing to defer claims of Shamtla,
                                                            > because this boy so clearly cannot control his immense magic power, and is
                                                            > in need of proper teaching rather than punishment- teaching which the
                                                            > Temple of Hru'u is more than happy to provide him with".
                                                            >
                                                            > The OAL connection also has some very good possibilities. I've been
                                                            > wracking my brains for a long-term way to have the PCs get moved to
                                                            > whatever adventure plot I come up with after Kemuel is trained. The OAL
                                                            > could very easily give this reason- they'd be interested in having Kemuel's
                                                            > services, as stated. I'm now thinking of turning up the heat on the PCs,
                                                            > having various powerful factions threaten to cause them grief- and then the
                                                            > OAL quietly steps in and persuades them all to let things drop. Naturally,
                                                            > the PCs must understand that they'll have to repay this favour- probably
                                                            > for the rest of their natural lives...
                                                            >
                                                            >

                                                            Chortle, Chortle, Snort..

                                                            excellent..

                                                            I suspect his own clan is gonna be a bit miffed as well, that he has drawn so much attention. His local clan could lose their prize and the Jakalla faction could end up embarrassed. Nothing so big as to be kicked out.. but a tighter leash, if they keep him out of imperial training. I can't see any way for them to put the cat back in the hat..

                                                            such fun..


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