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Re: [tekumel] Re: Non-human Undead

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  • Gizmo Twenty-three
    I seem to have stirred a bit of debate, so while i m here, i may as well go for it. In the previous posts it was pointed out that raising undead is basically
    Message 1 of 30 , Mar 1, 2010
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      I seem to have stirred a bit of debate, so while i'm here, i may as well go for it. In the previous posts it was pointed out that raising undead is basically the preservation of the intellect and the body. As the spirit-soul is allowed to depart, can anyone explain why the Lord Belkhánu is opposed to the activities of Lord Sárku? After all, as i understand it Lord Belkhánu's role is to guide the spirit-soul to the Isles of the Excellent Dead, which he should still be able to do even if someone's body and intellect are left behind on this plane of existence?

      Giz.
    • Victor Raymond
      Dear Giz, While I will defer to the opinion of my colleague Bob hiAlberti, I would venture to say that Lord Belkhanu s objection is that this unification of
      Message 2 of 30 , Mar 1, 2010
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        Dear Giz,

        While I will defer to the opinion of my colleague Bob hiAlberti, I would
        venture to say that Lord Belkhanu's objection is that this unification of
        the intellect and the body is contrary to the unfolding of the universe
        according to the wishes of Lord Hnalla. In a more specific way, this
        process disrupts the cycle of the spirit-soul's journey through the
        Paradises of Teretane, eventually leading to reincarnation. But I am no
        theologian - perhaps Tsemel Quren hiKetkolel could shed light on these
        matters!

        Victor

        On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:50 AM, Gizmo Twenty-three
        <gizmo_23@...>wrote:

        >
        >
        > I seem to have stirred a bit of debate, so while i'm here, i may as well go
        > for it. In the previous posts it was pointed out that raising undead is
        > basically the preservation of the intellect and the body. As the spirit-soul
        > is allowed to depart, can anyone explain why the Lord Belkh�nu is opposed to
        > the activities of Lord S�rku? After all, as i understand it Lord Belkh�nu's
        > role is to guide the spirit-soul to the Isles of the Excellent Dead, which
        > he should still be able to do even if someone's body and intellect are left
        > behind on this plane of existence?
        >
        > Giz.
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Howard
        didn t seem completely wrong to resurrect this thread. My campaign has just taken a turn toward Jagji, and I am trying to learn more. Anyone know what the
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 9, 2011
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          didn't seem completely wrong to resurrect this thread. My campaign has just taken a turn toward Jagji, and I am trying to learn more. Anyone know what the social status of Jagji is? I recall speculation that Dhich'une's servant in Man of Gold might have been Jagji.. though I can't recall where I encountered it. I have the players trying to find a long retired Bureaucrat to request a correction to some incomplete paperwork. I am simply not sure what he might be doing with himself over the past 1000 years..

          Certainly,he would have classic vampire problems, never aging, would draw attention. Figured he would continue to do what he knew best, which is bureaucracy, popping up, taking jobs, working for temples of Sarku and or Ksarul a lot.. afterall, savings can only get you so far. But I can't see them openly living the dream.

          His clan is not devoted to Sarku, but non denominational. I am sure clan elders know of his status, but, I don't think it would be something they would all be comfortable with. What's his tax status?

          need to go search the blue room as well...

          but any thoughts are welcome..


          --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Nanny" <stephenc75652@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Read Lords of Tsamra. Ksarul and Sarku do not have all the vats!!!!!
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: tekumel@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tekumel@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          > George Hammond
          > Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:11 PM
          > To: tekumel@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [tekumel] Re: Non-human Undead
          >
          > You're right, the Bestiary says that Vorodla are products of protoplasmic
          > vats that survive in a few ancient shrines of Ksarul (and presumably, Sarku
          > and/or Durritlamish). My take on the advanced/modified undead is similar to
          > yours, and also that their production is far more art than science. I
          > imagine they get made in different ways in different places, for different
          > reasons, and with little or no knowledge of what is done elsewere. In one
          > place an undead shedra-sorcerer makes beautiful jajgi as labors of reverence
          > to its god, with not much regard to the political or religious stature of
          > its subjects. In another, an ancient collaboration between a temple of
          > Durritlamish and Gruganu turns out Hra and Jajgi from ancient vats, not
          > physically perfect, but with powerful nodes of Sarku's energy implanted in
          > them, so they might be strong, and live forever. That sort of thing.
          >
          > George
          >
          >
          > On Feb 21, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Bruce Hubbell wrote:
          >
          > > I seem to recall from somewhere that the construction of some undead
          > required vats of some type to restructure them. Ancient technology I
          > believe. That would be the Vorodla among others. The Jagji (? spellng) might
          > need that type of thing too to maintain their perfectly preserved form.
          > That's always been my take on it. Anyway, that could be why there were no
          > "simple" (or not so simple) spells. Just a thought.
          > >
          > > Bruce
          > >
          > > --- On Sun, 2/21/10, George <geestar3@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > From: George <geestar3@...>
          > > Subject: [tekumel] Re: Non-human Undead
          > > To: tekumel@yahoogroups.com
          > > Date: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 9:34 PM
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > In Swords&Glory and Gardasiyal, the description of the Sarku Temple spell
          > "Necrofacture" indicates that intelligent non-humans can be made into Mrur
          > or Shedra. There are some interesting limitations. The inimical species
          > (Hluss, Ssu, Hlutrgu, etc.) can never be made into undead (so on this point
          > "The Tomb-Complex of Nereshanbo" departs from canon). Also, a caster must
          > have mastered more advanced versions of the spell to imbue a person with
          > undead status if they are of a different species than the caster. The most
          > advanced (T10) version of the spell allows the caster to temporarily become
          > undead. The next version down (T9), applies only to sorcerers or other
          > priests of Sarku (or "related deities") and requires a fairly complete
          > skeleton deceased less than 50 years prior. It allows the creation of a
          > Shedra with the full spell-casting powers it had in life, that is not
          > subservient to its creator.
          > >
          > > There is no mention of Jajgi or other more advanced forms of undead in the
          > spell description, nor of the modified forms such as Vorodla or Hra. The
          > creation of these is apparently some that happens only under special
          > circumstances.
          > >
          > > Mitlanyal notes that Ahoggya are banned from the priesthoods of the The
          > Lord of Worms and His Cohort, and proscribed from entering the Cities of the
          > Dead, because they sometimes eat corpses. I can imagine that a more
          > flexibly-minded Sarku sorcerer might animate Ahoggya as the lowliest of
          > Mrur, allowing them to serve in death that which they profaned in life.
          > >
          > > The other temples of the Dark Trinity (Hru'u, Ksarul, and Cohorts) have
          > access to spells of undead control. They are also reported to be able to
          > create at least the least-intelligent forms of undead, though such spells
          > are nowhere listed for them, so it is a special circumstance. They would not
          > have any obvious objection to animating Ahoggya.
          > >
          > > cheers,
          > >
          > > George
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
        • George Hammond
          Hi all, I think jajgi (note the spelling) generally have high status. As far as we know they can only be created by skilled sorcerer-priests of Sarku and
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 10, 2011
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            Hi all,

            I think jajgi (note the spelling) generally have high status. As far as we know they can only be created by skilled sorcerer-priests of Sarku and Durritlamish, through a costly and laborious process. Being transformed into jajgi is a great blessing from the Lord of Worms or His Cohort, and typically only persons of high rank within the Temples or their loyal clans would be granted such a boon.

            I think the Professor has written (probably on the Blue Room list) that many of the intelligent, long-lived undead tend to withdraw from society and from day-to-day events. They lose their political ambitions, so are not as common in the high priesthoods and clan councils as one one might expect.

            Here are some some past posts and message threads that might be useful
            http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/tekumel/message/24571
            http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/tekumel/message/22632
            http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/tekumel/message/20082

            and from the Professor:
            http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/tekumel/message/16133

            Regarding what the bureaucrat might be doing, if he was influential enough to be made a jajgi, then finances are unlikely to be a worry. If for some reason they are, he can afford to take a very long view with his investments. He might, for instance, make some long-term loans to his clan, or some very safe merchant concern, and then just spend the next 50 years in the crypt beneath the clanhouse, contemplating the glory of Sarku while the interest accrues...

            His non-denominational clan will probably have some members who are very uncomfortable having him around, but maybe not a lot, depending on the nature of the clan. He might still live in some dark, quiet suite at the back of the clanhouse, coming out after sunset to sit in the roof-garden and chat with clan-cousins, providing a valuable dispassionate perspective on things, and producing the occasional precious bit of old lore. Or, since he was presumably a devout worshipper, he might have retired to the Temple of Sarku, even perhaps moved to the City of Sarku, where he would be a respected resident. Oh, I think your campaign in the southwest, maybe? In that case, consider that Penom has a very significant Sarku presence.

            As to what he's been doing for the last thousand years, that's where it gets really interesting. Emotionless, focused on witnessing change in some way, lots of peculiar possibilities
            Here's a past thread on this topic that I started
            http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/tekumel/message/20043

            and in another thread on undead, Thomas Worthington posted some particularly insightful thoughts
            http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/tekumel/message/20082

            A jajgi could plausibly be pretty much wherever you want him to be. As hard or as easy to access as would suit your gaming purpose. Your jajgi could be a really interesting patron for your players, too. He might know things that nobody else knows.

            Two more jajgi-related ideas I've had:

            I like the idea of a group of them that just travel continuously, on riverboats perhaps, or in palanquins. Moving at night, never in a hurry, but never staying too long in one place. Along the way they meet with priests of Sarku, clan elders, and other persons of significance. They bring news, small items of value, act as intermediaries and trusted (albeit not hasty) couriers. They might tend to have a certain disconcerting ability to show up in places just before something interesting and unexpected happens. In a sense they are the ultimate onlookers.

            Also, I imagine that sometimes the necrofacture process goes slightly astray in creepy ways. I'm pretty sure Barker himself has said that the process is not perfect. Some jajgi come out inhumanly beautiful, but some are a bit corpselike. Some have very powerful nodes of interplanar energy that grant them stronger spell powers than they had in life, some are no more than human in their strengths. I imagine that sometimes, their distorted sensory abilities lead to some peculiar obsessions. Their passions are gone, but not their curiosity...

            wow, first rivers, now the intelligent undead. Two of my favorite Tekumel topics in one week. Thanks!

            George





            On Feb 9, 2011, at 11:40 PM, Howard wrote:

            > didn't seem completely wrong to resurrect this thread. My campaign has just taken a turn toward Jagji, and I am trying to learn more. Anyone know what the social status of Jagji is? I recall speculation that Dhich'une's servant in Man of Gold might have been Jagji.. though I can't recall where I encountered it. I have the players trying to find a long retired Bureaucrat to request a correction to some incomplete paperwork. I am simply not sure what he might be doing with himself over the past 1000 years..
            >
            > Certainly,he would have classic vampire problems, never aging, would draw attention. Figured he would continue to do what he knew best, which is bureaucracy, popping up, taking jobs, working for temples of Sarku and or Ksarul a lot.. afterall, savings can only get you so far. But I can't see them openly living the dream.
            >
            > His clan is not devoted to Sarku, but non denominational. I am sure clan elders know of his status, but, I don't think it would be something they would all be comfortable with. What's his tax status?
            >
            > need to go search the blue room as well...
            >
            > but any thoughts are welcome..
            >
            >
            > --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Nanny" <stephenc75652@...> wrote:
            >>
            >>
            >> Read Lords of Tsamra. Ksarul and Sarku do not have all the vats!!!!!
            >>
            >>
            >> -----Original Message-----
            >> From: tekumel@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tekumel@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            >> George Hammond
            >> Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:11 PM
            >> To: tekumel@yahoogroups.com
            >> Subject: Re: [tekumel] Re: Non-human Undead
            >>
            >> You're right, the Bestiary says that Vorodla are products of protoplasmic
            >> vats that survive in a few ancient shrines of Ksarul (and presumably, Sarku
            >> and/or Durritlamish). My take on the advanced/modified undead is similar to
            >> yours, and also that their production is far more art than science. I
            >> imagine they get made in different ways in different places, for different
            >> reasons, and with little or no knowledge of what is done elsewere. In one
            >> place an undead shedra-sorcerer makes beautiful jajgi as labors of reverence
            >> to its god, with not much regard to the political or religious stature of
            >> its subjects. In another, an ancient collaboration between a temple of
            >> Durritlamish and Gruganu turns out Hra and Jajgi from ancient vats, not
            >> physically perfect, but with powerful nodes of Sarku's energy implanted in
            >> them, so they might be strong, and live forever. That sort of thing.
            >>
            >> George
            >>
            >>
            >> On Feb 21, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Bruce Hubbell wrote:
            >>
            >>> I seem to recall from somewhere that the construction of some undead
            >> required vats of some type to restructure them. Ancient technology I
            >> believe. That would be the Vorodla among others. The Jagji (? spellng) might
            >> need that type of thing too to maintain their perfectly preserved form.
            >> That's always been my take on it. Anyway, that could be why there were no
            >> "simple" (or not so simple) spells. Just a thought.
            >>>
            >>> Bruce
            >>>
            >>> --- On Sun, 2/21/10, George <geestar3@...> wrote:
            >>>
            >>>
            >>> From: George <geestar3@...>
            >>> Subject: [tekumel] Re: Non-human Undead
            >>> To: tekumel@yahoogroups.com
            >>> Date: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 9:34 PM
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>> In Swords&Glory and Gardasiyal, the description of the Sarku Temple spell
            >> "Necrofacture" indicates that intelligent non-humans can be made into Mrur
            >> or Shedra. There are some interesting limitations. The inimical species
            >> (Hluss, Ssu, Hlutrgu, etc.) can never be made into undead (so on this point
            >> "The Tomb-Complex of Nereshanbo" departs from canon). Also, a caster must
            >> have mastered more advanced versions of the spell to imbue a person with
            >> undead status if they are of a different species than the caster. The most
            >> advanced (T10) version of the spell allows the caster to temporarily become
            >> undead. The next version down (T9), applies only to sorcerers or other
            >> priests of Sarku (or "related deities") and requires a fairly complete
            >> skeleton deceased less than 50 years prior. It allows the creation of a
            >> Shedra with the full spell-casting powers it had in life, that is not
            >> subservient to its creator.
            >>>
            >>> There is no mention of Jajgi or other more advanced forms of undead in the
            >> spell description, nor of the modified forms such as Vorodla or Hra. The
            >> creation of these is apparently some that happens only under special
            >> circumstances.
            >>>
            >>> Mitlanyal notes that Ahoggya are banned from the priesthoods of the The
            >> Lord of Worms and His Cohort, and proscribed from entering the Cities of the
            >> Dead, because they sometimes eat corpses. I can imagine that a more
            >> flexibly-minded Sarku sorcerer might animate Ahoggya as the lowliest of
            >> Mrur, allowing them to serve in death that which they profaned in life.
            >>>
            >>> The other temples of the Dark Trinity (Hru'u, Ksarul, and Cohorts) have
            >> access to spells of undead control. They are also reported to be able to
            >> create at least the least-intelligent forms of undead, though such spells
            >> are nowhere listed for them, so it is a special circumstance. They would not
            >> have any obvious objection to animating Ahoggya.
            >>>
            >>> cheers,
            >>>
            >>> George
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> ------------------------------------
            >>
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Don
            Howard, Remember that the T10 spells outlined in S&G and carried forward are NOT the highest level temple spells in existence. In S&G it states that there
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 10, 2011
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              Howard,

              Remember that the T10 spells outlined in S&G and carried forward are NOT the highest "level" temple spells in existence. In S&G it states that there are yet more powerful temple spells not listed in the spell corpora as they are highly protected and only available to the very highest circles within the temple. (In my Tekumel, I have a T12 version of "Viaticum of the Yellow Robe" for my priest of Qon that has a chance of destroying a Jadji, for example). I assume that some T12 to T14 temple spell of Necrofacture is used in highly secret chambers available only to the highest circles of priests of Sarku to create a Jagji. It would be expensive and only be used on very special persons where the Temple wanted to retain the knowledge of the individual.

              As to how Jadji interact with the outside world, remember that they are very difficult to distinguish from living people. While you are correct that, over time, the fact that they are not aging would be a clue that something is going on, the Temple of Sarku could move them around if needed.

              As to social status, I suppose a lot would depend on why the Jadji was created. If the Jadji was created in order to keep the knowledge, spell casting ability or administrative ability around, you can assume that most of the time the Jadji does not interact with the outside world much; Sarku's priests would typically keep the individual in the temple precincts. (An exception would be a Jadji in the company of and protection by an Imperial Prince, of course.)

              On the other hand, if the Jadji were created in order for a high-status individual to keep their lands and wealth on the rolls of the Temple of Sarku it would be another matter. Such an individual would continue to interact with the outside world as if nothing had changed for them for as long as the Temple of Sarku could get away with it (and since the wheels of the Imperial Bureaucracy tend to turn slowly this could be for some time). This individual would retain the social status they had in life, pay taxes as before, etc. Eventually, of course, it would be noticed that they were not aging, and the Temple of Sarku would need to make alternate social arrangements, possibly 'retiring' the person into the temple, etc.

              - Don Kaiser

              --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, "Howard" <kokigami@...> wrote:
              >
              > didn't seem completely wrong to resurrect this thread. My campaign has just taken a turn toward Jagji, and I am trying to learn more. Anyone know what the social status of Jagji is? I recall speculation that Dhich'une's servant in Man of Gold might have been Jagji.. though I can't recall where I encountered it. I have the players trying to find a long retired Bureaucrat to request a correction to some incomplete paperwork. I am simply not sure what he might be doing with himself over the past 1000 years..
              >
              > Certainly,he would have classic vampire problems, never aging, would draw attention. Figured he would continue to do what he knew best, which is bureaucracy, popping up, taking jobs, working for temples of Sarku and or Ksarul a lot.. afterall, savings can only get you so far. But I can't see them openly living the dream.
              >
              > His clan is not devoted to Sarku, but non denominational. I am sure clan elders know of his status, but, I don't think it would be something they would all be comfortable with. What's his tax status?
              >
              > need to go search the blue room as well...
              >
              > but any thoughts are welcome..
              >
              >
              > --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Nanny" <stephenc75652@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Read Lords of Tsamra. Ksarul and Sarku do not have all the vats!!!!!
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: tekumel@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tekumel@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              > > George Hammond
              > > Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:11 PM
              > > To: tekumel@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [tekumel] Re: Non-human Undead
              > >
              > > You're right, the Bestiary says that Vorodla are products of protoplasmic
              > > vats that survive in a few ancient shrines of Ksarul (and presumably, Sarku
              > > and/or Durritlamish). My take on the advanced/modified undead is similar to
              > > yours, and also that their production is far more art than science. I
              > > imagine they get made in different ways in different places, for different
              > > reasons, and with little or no knowledge of what is done elsewere. In one
              > > place an undead shedra-sorcerer makes beautiful jajgi as labors of reverence
              > > to its god, with not much regard to the political or religious stature of
              > > its subjects. In another, an ancient collaboration between a temple of
              > > Durritlamish and Gruganu turns out Hra and Jajgi from ancient vats, not
              > > physically perfect, but with powerful nodes of Sarku's energy implanted in
              > > them, so they might be strong, and live forever. That sort of thing.
              > >
              > > George
              > >
              > >
              > > On Feb 21, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Bruce Hubbell wrote:
              > >
              > > > I seem to recall from somewhere that the construction of some undead
              > > required vats of some type to restructure them. Ancient technology I
              > > believe. That would be the Vorodla among others. The Jagji (? spellng) might
              > > need that type of thing too to maintain their perfectly preserved form.
              > > That's always been my take on it. Anyway, that could be why there were no
              > > "simple" (or not so simple) spells. Just a thought.
              > > >
              > > > Bruce
              > > >
              > > > --- On Sun, 2/21/10, George <geestar3@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > From: George <geestar3@>
              > > > Subject: [tekumel] Re: Non-human Undead
              > > > To: tekumel@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Date: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 9:34 PM
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > In Swords&Glory and Gardasiyal, the description of the Sarku Temple spell
              > > "Necrofacture" indicates that intelligent non-humans can be made into Mrur
              > > or Shedra. There are some interesting limitations. The inimical species
              > > (Hluss, Ssu, Hlutrgu, etc.) can never be made into undead (so on this point
              > > "The Tomb-Complex of Nereshanbo" departs from canon). Also, a caster must
              > > have mastered more advanced versions of the spell to imbue a person with
              > > undead status if they are of a different species than the caster. The most
              > > advanced (T10) version of the spell allows the caster to temporarily become
              > > undead. The next version down (T9), applies only to sorcerers or other
              > > priests of Sarku (or "related deities") and requires a fairly complete
              > > skeleton deceased less than 50 years prior. It allows the creation of a
              > > Shedra with the full spell-casting powers it had in life, that is not
              > > subservient to its creator.
              > > >
              > > > There is no mention of Jajgi or other more advanced forms of undead in the
              > > spell description, nor of the modified forms such as Vorodla or Hra. The
              > > creation of these is apparently some that happens only under special
              > > circumstances.
              > > >
              > > > Mitlanyal notes that Ahoggya are banned from the priesthoods of the The
              > > Lord of Worms and His Cohort, and proscribed from entering the Cities of the
              > > Dead, because they sometimes eat corpses. I can imagine that a more
              > > flexibly-minded Sarku sorcerer might animate Ahoggya as the lowliest of
              > > Mrur, allowing them to serve in death that which they profaned in life.
              > > >
              > > > The other temples of the Dark Trinity (Hru'u, Ksarul, and Cohorts) have
              > > access to spells of undead control. They are also reported to be able to
              > > create at least the least-intelligent forms of undead, though such spells
              > > are nowhere listed for them, so it is a special circumstance. They would not
              > > have any obvious objection to animating Ahoggya.
              > > >
              > > > cheers,
              > > >
              > > > George
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              >
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