Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Early Tekumel Material?

Expand Messages
  • ladyanka_a
    I thought I d chime in as I was there at the start. ... This statement is not true, though the two-volume mimeo version was only distributed privately by Prof.
    Message 1 of 23 , Jun 5, 2008
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      I thought I'd chime in as I was there at the start.

      > > Nothing EPT came out prior to 1975.

      This statement is not true, though the two-volume mimeo version was
      only distributed privately by Prof. Barker himself.

      >
      > Barker, M. A. R.. Empire of the Petal Throne. Self-published, 1974.
      > Limited (approx. 50 copies??) mimeographed edition. In two volumes
      > (50 pp. and 49 pp.) with pale green paper covers with no artwork.
      >
      This is an accurate description of the "ORIGINAL" manuscript (if you
      will) for Tekumel, two mimeo volumes. I would be HIGHLY surprised if 50
      copies existed. I can probably account for about 20 copies, if I think
      long and hard to all the "original" people from CSA--Conflict
      Simulation Association--the Tuesday Night wargaming group at the U of M
      which Prof. Barker was faculty sponsor of. I got mine in August 1974,
      and was among the first to see it.

      This was what he sent to Gary Gygax in Lake Geneva, which then got
      revised (as the combat system was too close to D&D) and later
      published, with wonderful artwork in 1975. Mike Mornard was the link,
      he was a student at the U of M and was one of Gary's original high
      school student play-testers of D&D in Lake Geneva. Michael brought D&D
      to the U in the fall/winter of 1973, and we all bought the three volume
      boxed set (along with Chainmail) and played it to death. Prof. Barker
      was not pleased that D&D had taken over Tuesday nights, and 'retired'
      to write his own version, which he presented to a select few in August.

      Just trying to set the record straight. Now back to lurking.
    • Kenneth Oswald
      Great tidbit of Tekumel history there, Ladyanka. On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:20 AM, ladyanka_a ... -- Continually hopeful there s an
      Message 2 of 23 , Jun 5, 2008
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Great tidbit of Tekumel history there, Ladyanka.

        On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:20 AM, ladyanka_a <ladyanka-a@...>
        wrote:

        > I thought I'd chime in as I was there at the start.
        >
        > > > Nothing EPT came out prior to 1975.
        >
        > This statement is not true, though the two-volume mimeo version was
        > only distributed privately by Prof. Barker himself.
        >
        > >
        > > Barker, M. A. R.. Empire of the Petal Throne. Self-published, 1974.
        > > Limited (approx. 50 copies??) mimeographed edition. In two volumes
        > > (50 pp. and 49 pp.) with pale green paper covers with no artwork.
        > >
        > This is an accurate description of the "ORIGINAL" manuscript (if you
        > will) for Tekumel, two mimeo volumes. I would be HIGHLY surprised if 50
        > copies existed. I can probably account for about 20 copies, if I think
        > long and hard to all the "original" people from CSA--Conflict
        > Simulation Association--the Tuesday Night wargaming group at the U of M
        > which Prof. Barker was faculty sponsor of. I got mine in August 1974,
        > and was among the first to see it.
        >
        > This was what he sent to Gary Gygax in Lake Geneva, which then got
        > revised (as the combat system was too close to D&D) and later
        > published, with wonderful artwork in 1975. Mike Mornard was the link,
        > he was a student at the U of M and was one of Gary's original high
        > school student play-testers of D&D in Lake Geneva. Michael brought D&D
        > to the U in the fall/winter of 1973, and we all bought the three volume
        > boxed set (along with Chainmail) and played it to death. Prof. Barker
        > was not pleased that D&D had taken over Tuesday nights, and 'retired'
        > to write his own version, which he presented to a select few in August.
        >
        > Just trying to set the record straight. Now back to lurking.
        >
        >
        >



        --
        Continually hopeful there's an elegant line between egotism and cynicism...


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Chris Davis
        Wow. I guess I do learn something new every day. I have been collecting, talking about, reading and generally trying to make myself knowledgeable about EPT
        Message 3 of 23 , Jun 5, 2008
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          Wow. I guess I do learn something new every day. I have been
          collecting, talking about, reading and generally trying to make myself
          knowledgeable about EPT and Tekumel for the better part of 30 years
          and this is the very first I have heard about the 2 mimeographed
          manuscript books. Never even heard them discussed before! Thanks for
          the info ladyanka_a.

          Amazing.
          Chris (Oh, and I'm looking forward to getting my copy of the Seal.
          Must be a good sign if Alberti thinks that highly of it!) ;)

          --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, "ladyanka_a" <ladyanka-a@...> wrote:
          >
          > I thought I'd chime in as I was there at the start.
          >
          > > > Nothing EPT came out prior to 1975.
          >
          > This statement is not true, though the two-volume mimeo version was
          > only distributed privately by Prof. Barker himself.
          >
          > >
          > > Barker, M. A. R.. Empire of the Petal Throne. Self-published, 1974.
          > > Limited (approx. 50 copies??) mimeographed edition. In two volumes
          > > (50 pp. and 49 pp.) with pale green paper covers with no artwork.
          > >
          > This is an accurate description of the "ORIGINAL" manuscript (if you
          > will) for Tekumel, two mimeo volumes. I would be HIGHLY surprised if 50
          > copies existed. I can probably account for about 20 copies, if I think
          > long and hard to all the "original" people from CSA--Conflict
          > Simulation Association--the Tuesday Night wargaming group at the U of M
          > which Prof. Barker was faculty sponsor of. I got mine in August 1974,
          > and was among the first to see it.
          >
          > This was what he sent to Gary Gygax in Lake Geneva, which then got
          > revised (as the combat system was too close to D&D) and later
          > published, with wonderful artwork in 1975. Mike Mornard was the link,
          > he was a student at the U of M and was one of Gary's original high
          > school student play-testers of D&D in Lake Geneva. Michael brought D&D
          > to the U in the fall/winter of 1973, and we all bought the three volume
          > boxed set (along with Chainmail) and played it to death. Prof. Barker
          > was not pleased that D&D had taken over Tuesday nights, and 'retired'
          > to write his own version, which he presented to a select few in August.
          >
          > Just trying to set the record straight. Now back to lurking.
          >
        • mongoliant
          Wait a minute! You have just re-constructed my entire knowledge on early Tekumel gaming history. I was under the impression than the Professor had only used
          Message 4 of 23 , Jun 5, 2008
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            Wait a minute! You have just re-constructed my entire knowledge on
            early Tekumel gaming history.

            I was under the impression than the Professor had only used Tekumel in
            a role-playing environment *after* the publication and use of OD&D.
            First playing the game as it was out of the box (a western pulp
            fantasy game borrowing from multiple sources), then using it as the
            vehicle to run fantasy games set on his own Tekumel setting and only
            latter adapting it and elaborating what became EPT.

            Professor Barker had group playing Tekumel even *before* D&D came to
            town? Could you un-lurk and tell me more about this, please? What
            rules was he using then?

            Or am I just getting everything mixed up?



            --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, "ladyanka_a" <ladyanka-a@...> wrote:
            >
            > I thought I'd chime in as I was there at the start.
            >
            > > > Nothing EPT came out prior to 1975.
            >
            > This statement is not true, though the two-volume mimeo version was
            > only distributed privately by Prof. Barker himself.
            >
            > >
            > > Barker, M. A. R.. Empire of the Petal Throne. Self-published, 1974.
            > > Limited (approx. 50 copies??) mimeographed edition. In two volumes
            > > (50 pp. and 49 pp.) with pale green paper covers with no artwork.
            > >
            > This is an accurate description of the "ORIGINAL" manuscript (if you
            > will) for Tekumel, two mimeo volumes. I would be HIGHLY surprised if 50
            > copies existed. I can probably account for about 20 copies, if I think
            > long and hard to all the "original" people from CSA--Conflict
            > Simulation Association--the Tuesday Night wargaming group at the U of M
            > which Prof. Barker was faculty sponsor of. I got mine in August 1974,
            > and was among the first to see it.
            >
            > This was what he sent to Gary Gygax in Lake Geneva, which then got
            > revised (as the combat system was too close to D&D) and later
            > published, with wonderful artwork in 1975. Mike Mornard was the link,
            > he was a student at the U of M and was one of Gary's original high
            > school student play-testers of D&D in Lake Geneva. Michael brought D&D
            > to the U in the fall/winter of 1973, and we all bought the three volume
            > boxed set (along with Chainmail) and played it to death. Prof. Barker
            > was not pleased that D&D had taken over Tuesday nights, and 'retired'
            > to write his own version, which he presented to a select few in August.
            >
            > Just trying to set the record straight. Now back to lurking.
            >
          • altfritz
            Those are my thoughts also - was Tekumel a setting for gaming by the Thursday Night Group (or others) before D&D came on the scene. I don t necessarily mean
            Message 5 of 23 , Jun 6, 2008
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              Those are my thoughts also - was Tekumel a setting for gaming by the
              Thursday Night Group (or others) before D&D came on the scene. I
              don't necessarily mean role-playing, but what about wargaming?

              --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, "mongoliant" <nufavedu@...> wrote:
              >
              > Wait a minute! You have just re-constructed my entire knowledge on
              > early Tekumel gaming history.
              >
              > I was under the impression than the Professor had only used Tekumel
              in
              > a role-playing environment *after* the publication and use of OD&D.
              > First playing the game as it was out of the box (a western pulp
              > fantasy game borrowing from multiple sources), then using it as the
              > vehicle to run fantasy games set on his own Tekumel setting and only
              > latter adapting it and elaborating what became EPT.
              >
              > Professor Barker had group playing Tekumel even *before* D&D came to
              > town? Could you un-lurk and tell me more about this, please? What
              > rules was he using then?
              >
              > Or am I just getting everything mixed up?
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, "ladyanka_a" <ladyanka-a@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I thought I'd chime in as I was there at the start.
              > >
              > > > > Nothing EPT came out prior to 1975.
              > >
              > > This statement is not true, though the two-volume mimeo version
              was
              > > only distributed privately by Prof. Barker himself.
              > >
              > > >
              > > > Barker, M. A. R.. Empire of the Petal Throne. Self-published,
              1974.
              > > > Limited (approx. 50 copies??) mimeographed edition. In two
              volumes
              > > > (50 pp. and 49 pp.) with pale green paper covers with no
              artwork.
              > > >
              > > This is an accurate description of the "ORIGINAL" manuscript (if
              you
              > > will) for Tekumel, two mimeo volumes. I would be HIGHLY surprised
              if 50
              > > copies existed. I can probably account for about 20 copies, if I
              think
              > > long and hard to all the "original" people from CSA--Conflict
              > > Simulation Association--the Tuesday Night wargaming group at the
              U of M
              > > which Prof. Barker was faculty sponsor of. I got mine in August
              1974,
              > > and was among the first to see it.
              > >
              > > This was what he sent to Gary Gygax in Lake Geneva, which then
              got
              > > revised (as the combat system was too close to D&D) and later
              > > published, with wonderful artwork in 1975. Mike Mornard was the
              link,
              > > he was a student at the U of M and was one of Gary's original
              high
              > > school student play-testers of D&D in Lake Geneva. Michael
              brought D&D
              > > to the U in the fall/winter of 1973, and we all bought the three
              volume
              > > boxed set (along with Chainmail) and played it to death. Prof.
              Barker
              > > was not pleased that D&D had taken over Tuesday nights, and
              'retired'
              > > to write his own version, which he presented to a select few in
              August.
              > >
              > > Just trying to set the record straight. Now back to lurking.
              > >
              >
            • ladyanka_a
              I will reiterate. ... in ... I don t know from OD&D . We all got our boxed sets late 1973/early 1974. As far as I can remember Phil never actually played D&D
              Message 6 of 23 , Jun 6, 2008
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                I will reiterate.

                > I was under the impression than the Professor had only used Tekumel
                in
                > a role-playing environment *after* the publication and use of OD&D.
                > First playing the game as it was out of the box (a western pulp
                > fantasy game borrowing from multiple sources), then using it as the
                > vehicle to run fantasy games set on his own Tekumel setting and only
                > latter adapting it and elaborating what became EPT.

                I don't know from "OD&D". We all got our boxed sets late 1973/early
                1974. As far as I can remember Phil never actually played D&D
                himself, but he watched and kibitzed and observed the rest of us
                playing D&D a LOT. He had played Chainmail, the medieval combat game,
                which we used with D&D in those days.

                > Professor Barker had group playing Tekumel even *before* D&D came to
                > town? Could you un-lurk and tell me more about this, please? What
                > rules was he using then?

                No. Phil saw D&D, watched it being played, and then retired to write
                Tekumel and based the combat system on D&D.

                > Or am I just getting everything mixed up?

                Yes you are. D&D came first, then Tekumel. Period.

                Hope this makes it all crystal clear. Back to lurking.
              • Alva Hardison
                Interesting. Prof Barkers states that he role played (can t remember if he said D&D) and it was a middleages type of RPG in which the GM used his knowledge
                Message 7 of 23 , Jun 7, 2008
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  Interesting. Prof Barkers states that he role played (can't remember if he said D&D) and it was a middleages type of RPG in which the GM used his knowledge of the period to put some "color" to it. Dave Arneson has stated that one of the first sets of D&D put out was delivered to the good prof. So how does this mesh with what is below?

                  --- On Fri, 6/6/08, ladyanka_a <ladyanka-a@...> wrote:

                  From: ladyanka_a <ladyanka-a@...>
                  Subject: [tekumel] Re: Early Tekumel Material?
                  To: tekumel@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Friday, June 6, 2008, 10:15 AM






                  I will reiterate.

                  > I was under the impression than the Professor had only used Tekumel
                  in
                  > a role-playing environment *after* the publication and use of OD&D.
                  > First playing the game as it was out of the box (a western pulp
                  > fantasy game borrowing from multiple sources), then using it as the
                  > vehicle to run fantasy games set on his own Tekumel setting and only
                  > latter adapting it and elaborating what became EPT.

                  I don't know from "OD&D". We all got our boxed sets late 1973/early
                  1974. As far as I can remember Phil never actually played D&D
                  himself, but he watched and kibitzed and observed the rest of us
                  playing D&D a LOT. He had played Chainmail, the medieval combat game,
                  which we used with D&D in those days.

                  > Professor Barker had group playing Tekumel even *before* D&D came to
                  > town? Could you un-lurk and tell me more about this, please? What
                  > rules was he using then?

                  No. Phil saw D&D, watched it being played, and then retired to write
                  Tekumel and based the combat system on D&D.

                  > Or am I just getting everything mixed up?

                  Yes you are. D&D came first, then Tekumel. Period.

                  Hope this makes it all crystal clear. Back to lurking.


















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Kenneth Oswald
                  My understanding was that Dave Arneson invited the professor to join in his Blackmoor campaign. Not sure if this was to watch, play, or if this occurred more
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jun 7, 2008
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    My understanding was that Dave Arneson invited the professor to join in his
                    Blackmoor campaign. Not sure if this was to watch, play, or if this
                    occurred more than once - but Dave also played in the Prof's Thursday night
                    group. He speaks fondly of it.

                    On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Alva Hardison <alvahardison@...>
                    wrote:

                    > Interesting. Prof Barkers states that he role played (can't remember if
                    > he said D&D) and it was a middleages type of RPG in which the GM used
                    > his knowledge of the period to put some "color" to it. Dave Arneson has
                    > stated that one of the first sets of D&D put out was delivered to the
                    > good prof. So how does this mesh with what is below?
                    >
                    > --- On Fri, 6/6/08, ladyanka_a <ladyanka-a@...<ladyanka-a%40aethervox.net>>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > From: ladyanka_a <ladyanka-a@... <ladyanka-a%40aethervox.net>
                    > >
                    > Subject: [tekumel] Re: Early Tekumel Material?
                    > To: tekumel@yahoogroups.com <tekumel%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > Date: Friday, June 6, 2008, 10:15 AM
                    >
                    > I will reiterate.
                    >
                    > > I was under the impression than the Professor had only used Tekumel
                    > in
                    > > a role-playing environment *after* the publication and use of
                    > OD&D.
                    > > First playing the game as it was out of the box (a western pulp
                    > > fantasy game borrowing from multiple sources), then using it as the
                    > > vehicle to run fantasy games set on his own Tekumel setting and only
                    > > latter adapting it and elaborating what became EPT.
                    >
                    > I don't know from "OD&D". We all got our boxed sets late 1973/early
                    > 1974. As far as I can remember Phil never actually played D&D
                    > himself, but he watched and kibitzed and observed the rest of us
                    > playing D&D a LOT. He had played Chainmail, the medieval combat game,
                    > which we used with D&D in those days.
                    >
                    > > Professor Barker had group playing Tekumel even *before* D&D came
                    > to
                    > > town? Could you un-lurk and tell me more about this, please? What
                    > > rules was he using then?
                    >
                    > No. Phil saw D&D, watched it being played, and then retired to write
                    > Tekumel and based the combat system on D&D.
                    >
                    > > Or am I just getting everything mixed up?
                    >
                    > Yes you are. D&D came first, then Tekumel. Period.
                    >
                    > Hope this makes it all crystal clear. Back to lurking.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    --
                    Continually hopeful there's an elegant line between egotism and cynicism...


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Mark Eggert
                    Hello Lady Anka a, Please delurk and grant us another audience. This thread on the pre-TSR version of EPT reminded me of a posting a few years ago which had a
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jun 7, 2008
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello Lady Anka'a,
                      Please delurk and grant us another audience.

                      This thread on the pre-TSR version of EPT reminded me of a posting a few
                      years ago which had a link to a web page with a picture of the mimeographed
                      EPT rules and a story of the original game session of EPT. I was sure I
                      saved this and indeed I have found it. And I see it was you who posted it.
                      Please either repost the link, or allow me, to for all to enjoy again. Btw,
                      the web page was posted on the 30th anniversary of the game session.

                      Four years ago when I first heard of the pre-TSR version, I wondered if this
                      was what TSR used for their release of EPT and if so how much was changed
                      from the original. Before knowing of the pre-TSR version, I always wondered
                      if the professor only provided the world setting aspects and TSR generated
                      the variant of D&D for the ruleset. Or if the professor had generated the
                      ruleset? Can you tell us how close the two rulesets are?

                      Patiently waiting your reply,
                      Mark

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: tekumel@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tekumel@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      ladyanka_a
                      Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 10:16 AM
                      To: tekumel@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [tekumel] Re: Early Tekumel Material?

                      I will reiterate.

                      > I was under the impression than the Professor had only used Tekumel
                      in
                      > a role-playing environment *after* the publication and use of OD&D.
                      > First playing the game as it was out of the box (a western pulp
                      > fantasy game borrowing from multiple sources), then using it as the
                      > vehicle to run fantasy games set on his own Tekumel setting and only
                      > latter adapting it and elaborating what became EPT.

                      I don't know from "OD&D". We all got our boxed sets late 1973/early
                      1974. As far as I can remember Phil never actually played D&D
                      himself, but he watched and kibitzed and observed the rest of us
                      playing D&D a LOT. He had played Chainmail, the medieval combat game,
                      which we used with D&D in those days.

                      > Professor Barker had group playing Tekumel even *before* D&D came to
                      > town? Could you un-lurk and tell me more about this, please? What
                      > rules was he using then?

                      No. Phil saw D&D, watched it being played, and then retired to write
                      Tekumel and based the combat system on D&D.

                      > Or am I just getting everything mixed up?

                      Yes you are. D&D came first, then Tekumel. Period.

                      Hope this makes it all crystal clear. Back to lurking.



                      ------------------------------------

                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • ladyanka_a
                      I have consulted with a few other old timers and we have constructed a more thorough history of Tekumel--as opposed to EPT. The sequence of events in late
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jun 7, 2008
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I have consulted with a few other "old timers" and we have
                        constructed a more "thorough" history of Tekumel--as opposed to EPT.

                        The sequence of events in late 1973 and early 1974; Phil was the
                        faculty advisor for the University of Minnesota wargame club, which
                        met on Tuesday nights at Coffman. Dave Arneson and his friends had
                        been doing a lot of Chainmail games and started introducing fantasy
                        elements into them, which led to D & D: Mike Mornard had moved up
                        here from Lake Geneva bringing the new D & D game with him, and most
                        of the group had bought copies of the original boxed three-volume set
                        by late 1973.

                        The specific genesis of EPT came after the publication of
                        "Gods, Demi-gods, and Typos"; Phil was kibitzing a game being run by
                        Mike Mornard, when the group slaughtered the Archangel Michael. Phil
                        objected to this on various grounds, and Michael told him that "it was
                        in the rules". Phil responded by asking the famous question, "Well,
                        then, how many hit points does Jesus Christ have?"; Michael replied to
                        Phil that if he didn't like the rules, he should go off and do his
                        own. Phil then vanished for about two months and came back with the
                        mimeographed two-volume manuscript for EPT. Phil told me that Arneson
                        saw the manuscript, had Phil send it to TSR, and Gary Gygax
                        came up to negotiate the contract for EPT.

                        As to the "game" system, originally Phil "borrowed" the D&D system
                        for EPT. It was pretty close to D&D itself, it took very little
                        explanation to someone familiar with D&D. Gary thought it should have
                        its own system, and so Phil went back and developed his original game
                        system as seen in EPT. Phil was an old hand at wargaming, so the
                        system was not a difficult matter for him. The world and the rest was
                        what Phil was selling, not the actual mechanics of playing it. And
                        this is what has caused so many disagreements, IMHO. This
                        endless "D20 vs whatever system" argument is really not important.
                        The world of Tekumel is the important thing, not how you play it,
                        because there have been so many dfferent "game systems" within the
                        Tekumel universe.

                        As to where Tekumel itself came from, that goes waaaay back. Phil
                        said he felt lonely and isolated as a child, he said he had few
                        friends growing up and so he developed a rich inner fantasy life.
                        Tekumel is the result. It probably was mostly "gelled" by the time he
                        was in high school, but I imagine it was still evolving as he read SF
                        and learned about other cultures and languages etc. in college and
                        beyond. You can see in the drawings Phil did, that he was influenced
                        by the popular culture of his day, Ma'in looks a lot like Claudette
                        Colbert etc. He did the original map for Tekumel while he was in High
                        School, and it hasn't changed a lot since then.

                        Phil is a member of First Fandom in SF--he was around in the
                        Late '40's and 50's and knew almost everyone. He attended worldcons
                        and the rest in those days. He was active and did work for fanzines,
                        including drawing maps for Jack Vance's world. (The L. Ron Hubbard
                        story on the founding of Scientology is from Phil who did indeed
                        witness the original drunken chat/argument/dare.)

                        Interestingly, Phil told a lot of stories about his world travels,
                        meeting peoples and cultures around the globe. In some respects he is
                        a real-life Indiana Jones, going to all sorts of exotic places and
                        having "adventures" there. He didn't collect artifacts however, but
                        languages and cultures instead. He is a natural linguist. He taught
                        himself heiroglyphs and the ancient egyptian language when he was a
                        child of 8 or 9.

                        Phil had been 'gaming' a form of 'proto-Tekumel' since his childhood;
                        he told us about his collecting Britains' 54mm Roman and
                        Egyptian figures, and how these evolved into Tekumelyani (Tsolyani vs
                        Yan Koryani). He also hadncarved his own figures, which I've seen and
                        which are quite charming - he did these when he was in his early
                        teens, and they have a life all their own. (The figure that he used
                        for the courtyard statue on the Temple of Vimuhla model is one of the
                        same kind of thing as these.) What is interesting about the figures
                        is that Phil was not only using a sort of H. G. Wells's "Little Wars"
                        type of game for wargames on the floor, but he was also using a
                        series of colored dots on the bases of the figures to indicate their
                        particular strengths, powers, and attributes when he was using them
                        as individual 'hero' figures. He also had some 'monsters' that also
                        used the same base-marking system, and he told me that he had
                        done 'adventures' of a kind that could be considered a form of 'proto-
                        role-playing'.

                        Now some of these color code dots may have been due to Phil's bad
                        eyesight. He was legally blind in 1974 (20/200 or worse at that time)
                        and he's worn glasses all his life. He did outline the figures he
                        painted with ink to make the detail stand out better. This was a
                        popular style of painting in Britain among wargamers there, but few
                        did it in the US. The wargaming figures he painted himself are really
                        beautiful, as well as brightly colored--again probably for ease of
                        identification. Phil can see fine up close, but is lousy at a
                        distance. He did not drive, for that reason.

                        Phil continued this 'proto gaming' when he was doing his grad studies
                        at Berkeley; he gathered a group of SF fans which included people
                        like Bill Shipley and Vincent Gola, and they played the roles of
                        various clans and familes in Tsolyanu; the "Shipali" family of
                        Kerunan Province was Bill Shipley's, for example, and was the reason
                        why Phil did up the land-grant document that was used for the cover
                        of the Dragon issue, and an 'exploration' permit dates from the same
                        1950s period in Phil's life.

                        Probably, as a result of all this, as well as Phil's later extensive
                        miniatures playing in the ancient and medieval periods, the arrival
                        of D & D sparked Phil's interest in the medium. However, to answer
                        the main thrust of the questions, yes, he had been doing Tekumel
                        gaming prior to EPT's publication, and that since the 1940's...

                        I can't find the link to that early 1974 first gaming session stuff
                        myself. Please feel free to re-post it, I said what I said then, and
                        it still stands.

                        --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Eggert" <meggert@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Lady Anka'a,
                        > Please delurk and grant us another audience.
                        >
                        > This thread on the pre-TSR version of EPT reminded me of a posting
                        a few
                        > years ago which had a link to a web page with a picture of the
                        mimeographed
                        > EPT rules and a story of the original game session of EPT. I was
                        sure I
                        > saved this and indeed I have found it. And I see it was you who
                        posted it.
                        > Please either repost the link, or allow me, to for all to enjoy
                        again. Btw,
                        > the web page was posted on the 30th anniversary of the game session.
                        >
                        > Four years ago when I first heard of the pre-TSR version, I
                        wondered if this
                        > was what TSR used for their release of EPT and if so how much was
                        changed
                        > from the original. Before knowing of the pre-TSR version, I always
                        wondered
                        > if the professor only provided the world setting aspects and TSR
                        generated
                        > the variant of D&D for the ruleset. Or if the professor had
                        generated the
                        > ruleset? Can you tell us how close the two rulesets are?
                        >
                        > Patiently waiting your reply,
                        > Mark
                        >
                      • Eric J Moritz
                        ... ... Have you considered writing this up as an article for Carl? (^_^) ~Eric
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jun 8, 2008
                        View Source
                        • 0 Attachment
                          ladyanka_a wrote:
                          > I have consulted with a few other "old timers" and we have
                          > constructed a more "thorough" history of Tekumel--as opposed to EPT.
                          <snip>
                          > I can't find the link to that early 1974 first gaming session stuff
                          > myself. Please feel free to re-post it, I said what I said then, and
                          > it still stands.

                          Have you considered writing this up as an article for Carl? (^_^)

                          ~Eric
                        • Mark Eggert
                          Lady Anka a, Thank you and the other old timers for the very informative history of pre-TSR Tekumel. I have searched the web and cannot find the web page
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jun 8, 2008
                          View Source
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Lady Anka'a,
                            Thank you and the other "old timers" for the very informative history of
                            pre-TSR Tekumel.

                            I have searched the web and cannot find the web page with the early gaming
                            stuff for Tekumel. I do have a copy of it on my hard drive and I will email
                            it to the group.

                            Regards,
                            Mark

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: tekumel@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tekumel@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                            ladyanka_a
                            Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 2:25 PM
                            To: tekumel@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [tekumel] Re: Early Tekumel Material?

                            I have consulted with a few other "old timers" and we have
                            constructed a more "thorough" history of Tekumel--as opposed to EPT.

                            The sequence of events in late 1973 and early 1974; Phil was the
                            faculty advisor for the University of Minnesota wargame club, which
                            met on Tuesday nights at Coffman. Dave Arneson and his friends had
                            been doing a lot of Chainmail games and started introducing fantasy
                            elements into them, which led to D & D: Mike Mornard had moved up
                            here from Lake Geneva bringing the new D & D game with him, and most
                            of the group had bought copies of the original boxed three-volume set
                            by late 1973.

                            The specific genesis of EPT came after the publication of
                            "Gods, Demi-gods, and Typos"; Phil was kibitzing a game being run by
                            Mike Mornard, when the group slaughtered the Archangel Michael. Phil
                            objected to this on various grounds, and Michael told him that "it was
                            in the rules". Phil responded by asking the famous question, "Well,
                            then, how many hit points does Jesus Christ have?"; Michael replied to
                            Phil that if he didn't like the rules, he should go off and do his
                            own. Phil then vanished for about two months and came back with the
                            mimeographed two-volume manuscript for EPT. Phil told me that Arneson
                            saw the manuscript, had Phil send it to TSR, and Gary Gygax
                            came up to negotiate the contract for EPT.

                            As to the "game" system, originally Phil "borrowed" the D&D system
                            for EPT. It was pretty close to D&D itself, it took very little
                            explanation to someone familiar with D&D. Gary thought it should have
                            its own system, and so Phil went back and developed his original game
                            system as seen in EPT. Phil was an old hand at wargaming, so the
                            system was not a difficult matter for him. The world and the rest was
                            what Phil was selling, not the actual mechanics of playing it. And
                            this is what has caused so many disagreements, IMHO. This
                            endless "D20 vs whatever system" argument is really not important.
                            The world of Tekumel is the important thing, not how you play it,
                            because there have been so many dfferent "game systems" within the
                            Tekumel universe.

                            As to where Tekumel itself came from, that goes waaaay back. Phil
                            said he felt lonely and isolated as a child, he said he had few
                            friends growing up and so he developed a rich inner fantasy life.
                            Tekumel is the result. It probably was mostly "gelled" by the time he
                            was in high school, but I imagine it was still evolving as he read SF
                            and learned about other cultures and languages etc. in college and
                            beyond. You can see in the drawings Phil did, that he was influenced
                            by the popular culture of his day, Ma'in looks a lot like Claudette
                            Colbert etc. He did the original map for Tekumel while he was in High
                            School, and it hasn't changed a lot since then.

                            Phil is a member of First Fandom in SF--he was around in the
                            Late '40's and 50's and knew almost everyone. He attended worldcons
                            and the rest in those days. He was active and did work for fanzines,
                            including drawing maps for Jack Vance's world. (The L. Ron Hubbard
                            story on the founding of Scientology is from Phil who did indeed
                            witness the original drunken chat/argument/dare.)

                            Interestingly, Phil told a lot of stories about his world travels,
                            meeting peoples and cultures around the globe. In some respects he is
                            a real-life Indiana Jones, going to all sorts of exotic places and
                            having "adventures" there. He didn't collect artifacts however, but
                            languages and cultures instead. He is a natural linguist. He taught
                            himself heiroglyphs and the ancient egyptian language when he was a
                            child of 8 or 9.

                            Phil had been 'gaming' a form of 'proto-Tekumel' since his childhood;
                            he told us about his collecting Britains' 54mm Roman and
                            Egyptian figures, and how these evolved into Tekumelyani (Tsolyani vs
                            Yan Koryani). He also hadncarved his own figures, which I've seen and
                            which are quite charming - he did these when he was in his early
                            teens, and they have a life all their own. (The figure that he used
                            for the courtyard statue on the Temple of Vimuhla model is one of the
                            same kind of thing as these.) What is interesting about the figures
                            is that Phil was not only using a sort of H. G. Wells's "Little Wars"
                            type of game for wargames on the floor, but he was also using a
                            series of colored dots on the bases of the figures to indicate their
                            particular strengths, powers, and attributes when he was using them
                            as individual 'hero' figures. He also had some 'monsters' that also
                            used the same base-marking system, and he told me that he had
                            done 'adventures' of a kind that could be considered a form of 'proto-
                            role-playing'.

                            Now some of these color code dots may have been due to Phil's bad
                            eyesight. He was legally blind in 1974 (20/200 or worse at that time)
                            and he's worn glasses all his life. He did outline the figures he
                            painted with ink to make the detail stand out better. This was a
                            popular style of painting in Britain among wargamers there, but few
                            did it in the US. The wargaming figures he painted himself are really
                            beautiful, as well as brightly colored--again probably for ease of
                            identification. Phil can see fine up close, but is lousy at a
                            distance. He did not drive, for that reason.

                            Phil continued this 'proto gaming' when he was doing his grad studies
                            at Berkeley; he gathered a group of SF fans which included people
                            like Bill Shipley and Vincent Gola, and they played the roles of
                            various clans and familes in Tsolyanu; the "Shipali" family of
                            Kerunan Province was Bill Shipley's, for example, and was the reason
                            why Phil did up the land-grant document that was used for the cover
                            of the Dragon issue, and an 'exploration' permit dates from the same
                            1950s period in Phil's life.

                            Probably, as a result of all this, as well as Phil's later extensive
                            miniatures playing in the ancient and medieval periods, the arrival
                            of D & D sparked Phil's interest in the medium. However, to answer
                            the main thrust of the questions, yes, he had been doing Tekumel
                            gaming prior to EPT's publication, and that since the 1940's...

                            I can't find the link to that early 1974 first gaming session stuff
                            myself. Please feel free to re-post it, I said what I said then, and
                            it still stands.

                            --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Eggert" <meggert@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Lady Anka'a,
                            > Please delurk and grant us another audience.
                            >
                            > This thread on the pre-TSR version of EPT reminded me of a posting
                            a few
                            > years ago which had a link to a web page with a picture of the
                            mimeographed
                            > EPT rules and a story of the original game session of EPT. I was
                            sure I
                            > saved this and indeed I have found it. And I see it was you who
                            posted it.
                            > Please either repost the link, or allow me, to for all to enjoy
                            again. Btw,
                            > the web page was posted on the 30th anniversary of the game session.
                            >
                            > Four years ago when I first heard of the pre-TSR version, I
                            wondered if this
                            > was what TSR used for their release of EPT and if so how much was
                            changed
                            > from the original. Before knowing of the pre-TSR version, I always
                            wondered
                            > if the professor only provided the world setting aspects and TSR
                            generated
                            > the variant of D&D for the ruleset. Or if the professor had
                            generated the
                            > ruleset? Can you tell us how close the two rulesets are?
                            >
                            > Patiently waiting your reply,
                            > Mark
                            >



                            ------------------------------------

                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • Brian Murphy
                            Thank you Lady Anka, for your unlurking attention.   I officially joined the EPT revolution about 6 months after the game premiered. My club was fully
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jun 9, 2008
                            View Source
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Thank you Lady Anka, for your
                              unlurking attention.
                               
                              I officially joined the EPT 'revolution'
                              about 6 months after the game
                              premiered. My club was fully formed at
                              that time, and called The Hawk War game
                              Club. The core members (of which I am
                              one, by accident of being there for the
                              first meeting) decided to try to cover all
                              game bases for our rapidly growing membership.
                              The club wanted to have a D & D guy, a T & T
                              guy an Arduin guy, and so on. I got volunteered
                              for EPT and reluctantly assumed the job.
                               
                              I met Phil and several other EPT people at
                              that fateful Temple showing, when GenCon
                              was still being held in Lake Geneva. Phil gave
                              me his number there, and I began a two or
                              three year long distance correspondence.
                              When I attempted to start a mail order business
                              based in EPT products, Phil gave me verbal permission
                              to use the Thumis glyph as my logo, which I
                              occasionally do today, without copyright challenge,
                              though the mail order business, Imperial Scribe
                              forfeited the assumed name in 1984, and I retired from
                              game merchandizing. I still have my old banner,
                              and a lot of unsold items of Tekumelania.
                               
                              Phil became disenchanted with my constant
                              inquiries about game modules, and judges aids,
                              and referred me to Jeff Berry, from whom I was
                              able to obtain 'official' paint jobs of all the current
                              minis, so that I could display them painted on
                              my minicon sales table. Jeff also put my name
                              in for continuing subs to the current newsletters.
                              I amassed a huge stock of miniatures, and still
                              have most of it. My figure conversions are the
                              stuff of legend among the Chicago clubs. I won
                              the national  trophy in 1978. (not the GenCon one,
                              or the Warhammer one, but the oldest one--the
                              Wargammers Digest Winged Victory).
                               
                              I met the Heeps father and son team the year
                              they did the giant Sakbe road display, and met
                              Dave Sutherland around that time. Jeff Berry
                              and I remained in touch until he stopped taking
                              my calls. He had already referred me to Jim Roach
                              who graciously compensated me for my lost mini
                              consignment. I returned the favor by buying half
                              his current inventory, and a sub to his fanzine.
                               
                              I left EPT to pursue my own fantasy compilation,
                              Kesh, which has been well received, and almost
                              bought. My original 25 players had shrunk to 3,
                              and I decided to suspend the first campaign, which
                              I dubbed Tika. Years later, several of my former
                              players, and some newbees, ganged up on me,
                              and compelled me to start the Chamber of Ages
                              Campaign in the 90's. It was then that I began
                              to realize the vast amount of EPT materials I had
                              accumulated.
                               
                              This might go some distance toward explaining
                              my relationship to EPT, and why no inner circle
                              people knew of my existence until 2001, when
                              I found Carl Brodt, and he convinced me to attend
                              U Con. There I am in the photos, leaning toward
                              the tape recorder, next to Carl.
                               
                              Regards,
                              E, Brian Murphy
                              The Imperial Scribe




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • James Eckman
                              ... One major exception to this, Phil is literate and the original rules are much better written than D&D. I did get one of the first copies, mostly because as
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jun 9, 2008
                              View Source
                              • 0 Attachment
                                > As to the "game" system, originally Phil "borrowed" the D&D system
                                > for EPT. It was pretty close to D&D itself,

                                One major exception to this, Phil is literate and the original rules are
                                much better written than D&D. I did get one of the first copies, mostly
                                because as a wargamer I had heard about these strange games and I wanted
                                to try one. For the first 6 months or so, a few friends and I fought
                                land battles and such before we got hooked on dungeon crawls.

                                P.S. We used a 1914 variant for the land battles!

                                Jim Eckman
                              • Peter Huston
                                James Eckman wrote: Phil is literate. . . I think that Professor Barker deserves more credit for this. To many of us who discovered EPT, and
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jun 10, 2008
                                View Source
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  James Eckman wrote:

                                  <snip>

                                  "Phil is literate. . . "

                                  <snip>


                                  I think that Professor Barker deserves more credit for this. To many of us who discovered EPT, and such things as the Book of Ebon Bindings as teenagers or adolescents, Professor Barker deserves much unreceived credit as the source of first exposure to many SAT words that we never would have seen elsewhere.

                                  :-)

                                  Peter Huston



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • mtbdmf
                                  Too true. Phil s use of words occasionally reminds me of the works of my favorite author of all time, Clark Ashton Smith, who was an absolute wizard with
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jun 11, 2008
                                  View Source
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Too true. Phil's use of words occasionally reminds me of the works of my favorite author
                                    of all time, Clark Ashton Smith, who was an absolute wizard with words, using words not
                                    only to describe but to evoke and enchant. Phil's "Book of Ebon Bindings" is my favorite
                                    gaming supplement of all time.

                                    M


                                    --- In tekumel@yahoogroups.com, Peter Huston <hamchuck.1234@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > James Eckman wrote:
                                    >
                                    > <snip>
                                    >
                                    > "Phil is literate. . . "
                                    >
                                    > <snip>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I think that Professor Barker deserves more credit for this. To many of us who
                                    discovered EPT, and such things as the Book of Ebon Bindings as teenagers or adolescents,
                                    Professor Barker deserves much unreceived credit as the source of first exposure to many
                                    SAT words that we never would have seen elsewhere.
                                    >
                                    > :-)
                                    >
                                    > Peter Huston
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.