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[tc-list] Re: LXX

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  • Robert B. Waltz
    ... This is one of those cases where one is tempted to say, What was your acquaintance smoking at the time ? :-) The majority of NT quotations appear to be
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 27, 1999
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      On 12/27/99, Mitchell Gray wrote:

      >Hello,
      >
      >I don't know if this is an appropriate question for the TC list if not,
      >please tell me. Someone once told me that they believe that the writers of
      >the NT probably used the LXX very little. When I asked him why he said
      >that copies of the LXX were expensive and were less accessible than those
      >of the Hebrew MSS. He also said that the reason it is difficult to find
      >any quote in the NT that resembles that of the LXX is because it is
      >possible that the NT writers took their Heb. MSS and made their own
      >translation.
      >
      >I know very little about the LXX and its relationship to the NT but is this
      >a plausible theory? Would it have any support or has it been proven that
      >the NT authors used the LXX when writing their letters?

      This is one of those cases where one is tempted to say, "What was your
      acquaintance smoking at the time"? :-)

      The majority of NT quotations appear to be from the LXX. Some, such
      as Matt. 1:23, *have* to be from LXX, because the MT doesn't mean
      the same thing as the LXX.

      Admittedly this reading from Matthew is an exception; Matthew usually
      translates on his own. But he was unusual in this; almost all of
      Paul's quotations, for instance, match one or another of the LXX textual
      strands. (For some reason, NT quotations don't seem to be used much
      in LXX textual criticism. Somebody should do something about that. :-)
      Though admittedly it's a complicated problem. :-)

      The argument about the expense of the manuscripts is, at the least,
      strange. I would guess that, in Palestine, a manuscript of the Hebrew
      would be cheaper; lots of people there capable of making one. Or you
      could get a used one.

      But elsewhere, the reverse would be true. Oh, an LXX manuscript might
      take more material (not sure about this; I haven't seen any comparisons.
      But LXX has vowels :-). But a Greek could copy an LXX manuscript. And
      a Greek could *read* an LXX manuscript. In other words, logic says
      that LXX manuscripts would be more common than Hebrew manuscripts,
      and hence probably cheaper, outside Palestine. And most of the NT,
      it is thought, was written outside Palestine. Therefore, if we trust
      logic at all, LXX manuscripts would have been more accessible.

      So both the evidence of the NT and the (much weaker) evidence of logic
      say that most of the OT quotations in the NT are from the LXX. The
      fact is, they *are*. For whatever reason. (It may be just that the
      authors felt they had to quote LXX, as that version would be familiar
      to their readers. It doesn't really matter....)

      -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

      Robert B. Waltz
      waltzmn@...

      Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism?
      Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn
      (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism)

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    • Steve Puluka
      ... I would love to see the historical documentation to support this theory! ;-) Joel Kalvesmaki has posted a lot of resources for Septuagint studies on his
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 28, 1999
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        >From: "Mitchell Gray" <kingmnky@...>

        >Someone once told me that they believe that the writers of
        >the NT probably used the LXX very little. When I asked him why he said
        >that copies of the LXX were expensive and were less accessible
        >than those of the Hebrew MSS. He also said that the reason it is difficult
        >to find any quote in the NT that resembles that of the LXX is because it is
        >possible that the NT writers took their Heb. MSS and made their own
        >translation.

        I would love to see the historical documentation to support this theory! ;-)

        Joel Kalvesmaki has posted a lot of resources for Septuagint studies on his
        web site. The link below is a chart listing the quotations of scripture in
        the New Testament with the Septuagint and MT translations of each. You can
        see for yourself and judge for yourself the authors source. His main web
        page also links out to an extensive bibliography of books and periodicals
        where you can read what scholars have to say on this issue.

        http://arts-sciences.cua.edu/ecs/jdk/LXX/NTChart.htm

        Steve Puluka
        Adult Education Instructor
        Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
        http://arrive.at/byzantinecatholic

        ______________________________________________________
        Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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      • Gregory J. Woodhouse
        Very interesting. Wht can be said about similarities between NT mss. (which?) and LXX mss. here? ... Gregory Woodhouse gjw@wnetc.com /
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 28, 1999
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          Very interesting. Wht can be said about similarities between NT
          mss. (which?) and LXX mss. here?

          ---
          Gregory Woodhouse
          gjw@... / http://www.wnetc.com/home.html
          "An atheist staring from his attic window is often nearer to God than the
          believer caught up in his own false image of God."
          --Martin Buber


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        • Robert B. Waltz
          ... It s very hard, based on what I ve seen, to correlate NT text-types with LXX readings. However, I ve read -- and what I ve seen in Paul seems to support
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 28, 1999
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            On 12/28/99, Gregory J. Woodhouse wrote:

            >Very interesting. Wht can be said about similarities between NT
            >mss. (which?) and LXX mss. here?

            It's very hard, based on what I've seen, to correlate NT text-types
            with LXX readings.

            However, I've read -- and what I've seen in Paul seems to support
            this -- that the NT more often quotes the readings of the A text
            of LXX than the B text. (This is based just on Rahlfs, I'm afraid.)
            That is, the LXX text circulating in NT times seems not to be the
            "Old Greek" as originally translated, but rather the somewhat
            revised later versions.

            Come to think of it, this *might* have been what the original
            poster's source's original source said. Not that the NT quotes
            the Hebrew, but that the NT quotes the LXX texts which have been
            revised based on the Hebrew.

            -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

            Robert B. Waltz
            waltzmn@...

            Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism?
            Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn
            (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism)

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          • rlmullen@netpath.net
            For the Pauline Epistles, see Christopher D. Stanley, PAUL AND THE LANGUAGE OF SCRIPTURE, SNTS Mongraph Series 74, (Cambridge, 1992). --Rod Mullen ...
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 28, 1999
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              For the Pauline Epistles, see Christopher D. Stanley, PAUL AND THE LANGUAGE
              OF SCRIPTURE, SNTS Mongraph Series 74, (Cambridge, 1992).

              --Rod Mullen

              At 03:51 PM 12/28/99 -0600, you wrote:
              >On 12/28/99, Gregory J. Woodhouse wrote:
              >
              >>Very interesting. Wht can be said about similarities between NT
              >>mss. (which?) and LXX mss. here?
              >
              >It's very hard, based on what I've seen, to correlate NT text-types
              >with LXX readings.
              >
              >However, I've read -- and what I've seen in Paul seems to support
              >this -- that the NT more often quotes the readings of the A text
              >of LXX than the B text. (This is based just on Rahlfs, I'm afraid.)
              >That is, the LXX text circulating in NT times seems not to be the
              >"Old Greek" as originally translated, but rather the somewhat
              >revised later versions.
              >
              >Come to think of it, this *might* have been what the original
              >poster's source's original source said. Not that the NT quotes
              >the Hebrew, but that the NT quotes the LXX texts which have been
              >revised based on the Hebrew.
              >
              >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
              >
              > Robert B. Waltz
              > waltzmn@...
              >
              >Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism?
              >Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn
              >(A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism)
              >
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              >


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            • U.B.Schmid
              ... D.-A. Koch, Die Schrift als Zeuge des Evangeliums. Untersuchungen zur Verwendung und zum Verstaendnis der Schrift bei Paulus (BHTh 69), 1986 makes the
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 29, 1999
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                rlmullen@... wrote:
                > For the Pauline Epistles, see Christopher D. Stanley, PAUL AND THE LANGUAGE
                > OF SCRIPTURE, SNTS Mongraph Series 74, (Cambridge, 1992).

                D.-A. Koch, Die Schrift als Zeuge des Evangeliums. Untersuchungen zur Verwendung
                und zum Verstaendnis der Schrift bei Paulus (BHTh 69), 1986 makes the point that
                Pauline texts occasionally give pre-hexaplaric *Textforms*.

                ------------------------------------------
                Dr. Ulrich Schmid
                U.B.Schmid@...


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              • Ron Minton
                Date sent: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 10:07:53 -0800 (PST) From: Gregory J. Woodhouse To: TC-List
                Message 7 of 7 , Jan 4, 2000
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                  Date sent: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 10:07:53 -0800 (PST)
                  From: "Gregory J. Woodhouse" <news1!gjw@...>
                  To: "TC-List" <tc-list@...-certr.org>
                  Subject: [tc-list] Re: LXX
                  Very interesting. What can be said about similarities between NT
                  mss. (which?) and LXX mss. here? Gregory Woodhouse
                  gjw@... / http://www.wnetc.com/home.html
                  -------------------------------------
                  A few years ago, I read a paper on this at an SBL Regional
                  meeting in St. Louis (March 23, 1996). There are only 19 places in
                  the UBSGNT/NA/Maj texts where the NT has both an OT quotation
                  and a textual variant in the quoted part. These are a small number,
                  but the Maj. Text tends to quote from Hebrew more and the Cr.
                  Text tends to quote from the LXX more. The Maj. Text deviates
                  from both the Heb and LXX 26%. The Cr. Text does so 74%. I did
                  not feel that there was solid evidence that either had been modified
                  by scribes for the purpose of conforming to a certain OT text. For
                  details, see my SBL paper. The chart below is simplified from the
                  paper; it did not survive the transmission well, but is still useful.
                  Below the Scripture references is found the Maj. then the Cr. For
                  example, in the first entry, the Maj. follows the LXX and the Cr.
                  follows the Hebrew. My comments then follow.

                  NT TEXTUAL FAMILY VARIANTS
                  OF OT QUOTATIONS

                  NT/OT PASSAGE

                  BYZANTINE (MAJORITY)

                  ALEXANDRIAN (UBS4/NA27)

                  NOTES AND COMMENTS

                  

                  Mt. 2:18
                  Jer. 31:15

                  LXX

                  Hebrew

                  The Maj. mss. add "lamentation" to follow the LXX.
                  
                  Mk. 10:6-7
                  Gen. 2:24

                  LXX/Heb

                  Deviates 

                  UBS4 {D} text is in brackets, but clearly
                  attested in LXX, Heb, Maj.

                  

                  Mk. 12:36
                  Ps. 110:1

                  LXX/Heb

                  Deviates

                  See Mt. 22:44 - same Cr. deviant; UBS4 does not
                  list a variant.

                  
                  Mk. 15:34
                  Ps. 22:1

                  Hebrew

                  Hebrew

                  Minor variant; both Alex. and Byz. evidence divided.

                  

                  Lk. 4:4
                  Dt. 8:3

                  LXX/Heb

                  Deviates

                  Cr. here omits key phrase from OT & the Maj.

                  

                  Lk. 19:38
                  Ps. 118:26

                  Deviates
                  

                  Deviates
                  

                  Both texts add the word "king" not found in OT.
                  Actual variant is minor.

                  

                  Jn. 12:40
                  Is. 6:10

                  Hebrew

                  Hebrew

                  Minor variants in verb forms; little effect on meaning.

                  

                  Jn. 13:18
                  Ps. 41:9

                  Deviates

                  LXX/Heb

                  Maj. has "bread with me" where OT, Cr. have "my bread."

                  

                  Acts 7:32
                  Ex. 3:4-10

                  LXX/Heb

                  Deviates 

                  Cr. shortens quote by omitting phrase "the God of" twice.

                  

                  Rom. 3:12
                  Ps. 14:1-3
                  Ps. 53:1-3

                  LXX/Heb

                  Deviates 

                  UBS4 {C} text is in brackets, but clearly
                  attested reading. Slight deviation from OT.

                  

                  Rom. 9:28
                  Is. 10:22-3
                  Hos. 1:10

                  LXX

                  Deviates

                  Cr. omits LXX phrase "cut it short in righteousness."

                  

                  Rom. 10:15
                  Is. 52:7
                  Na. 1:15 

                  LXX/Heb

                  Deviates

                  Cr. omits OT phrase; Maj. shows some division.

                  

                  1 Cor.15:55
                  Hos. 13:14

                  Deviates

                  Deviates

                  Both texts differ from OT in verb choice; Cr. "death" for "Hades."

                  

                  Eph. 4:8
                  Ps. 68:18

                  Deviates

                  Deviates

                  Variant is minor. Both texts show intentional deviation by Paul.

                  

                  Heb. 1:8
                  Ps. 45:6-7

                  LXX/Heb

                  LXX/Heb

                  Minor variant
                  

                  

                  19Heb. 1:12
                  Ps.102:25-6

                  LXX

                  Deviates

                  Cr. has "as a garment," not found in OT.11 The New Testament
                  only quotes the last portion of thi the first part of the LXX which is
                  not being quoted (or, perhaps, reverts to the Hebrew word order)
                  
                  Heb.
                  2:7 Ps. 8:5-7

                  Deviates

                  Deviates

                  Both texts follow partial quote; part of Maj. has full quote.

                  

                  Heb. 8:11
                  Jer.31:31-4

                  LXX/Heb

                  Deviates

                  Cr. omits "of them" found in OT & Maj.

                  

                  Heb. 10:38
                  Hab. 2:3-4

                  LXX

                  Deviates

                  Cr. adds "my" not found in OT or Maj.; otherwise, LXX
                  

                  one miserable scribbler,
                  Ron Minton

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