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Re: tc-list 1330 Psalms

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  • Robert B. Waltz
    ... Rolle s translation (made from the Vulgate, of course), was in prose. I suspect it may have been amplified a little, as Rolle wrote other religious lyrics.
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
      On 12/2/99, Ron Minton wrote:

      >Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of
      >the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or
      >Richard Rolle?

      Rolle's translation (made from the Vulgate, of course), was in prose.
      I suspect it may have been amplified a little, as Rolle wrote other
      religious lyrics.

      The following is excerpted from the section on Rolle in Kenneth Sisam's
      _Fourteenth Century Verse and Prose_

      Richard Rolle of Hampole (d. 1349)

      Richard Rolle was born at Thornton-de-Dale, near Pickering, in
      Yorkshire. He was sent to Oxford [but] returned home without taking
      orders... and fled into solitude.

      He wrote both in Latin and in English, and it is not always easy to
      distinguish his work from that of his many followers and imitators.
      The writings attributed to him are edited by C. Horstman, _Yorkshire
      Writers_, 2 vols, London 1895-6.... [H]e wrote, at the request of
      Margaret Kirkby, a _Commentary on the Pslams_ (ed. Bramley, Oxford 1884)
      base don the Latin of Peter Lombard.

      Looking at the selections of his writings in Sisam, I would guess that
      he wrote in his native Yorkshire dialect. It's easier to understand
      than _Sir Gawain and the Green Knight_, but it's clearly harder
      than Chaucer. (Of course, it's also a half century earlier, but I
      have to think geography a greater factor than time in this instance.)
      His writings use yogh and thorn; I do not observe an eth. (It's a small
      sample, though.)

      A bibliography of works concerning Rolle can be found in the
      _Pelican Guide to English Literature_ Volume 1: The Age of
      Chaucer. p. 481.

      William of Shoreham (fl. c. 1325) seems to have been a much more
      obscure character. George K. Anderson, _Old and Middle English
      Literature from the Beginnings to 1485_, credits him with
      "heavy religious verse and ponderous expression," but says
      nothing more. I incline to think the description true, though,
      because I can't find any other references to him, and I find not
      a hint of his writings in my library. Doesn't sound like he did
      any Bible translating.

      -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

      Robert B. Waltz
      waltzmn@...

      Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism?
      Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn
      (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism)
    • Paul F. Schaffner
      ... Richard Rolle ( of Hampole ) wrote an English translation of the psalter, with commentary, c1340. For an edition, see _The Psalter or Psalms of David and
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
        > Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of
        > the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or
        > Richard Rolle?

        Richard Rolle ("of Hampole") wrote an English translation of the psalter,
        with commentary, c1340. For an edition, see _The Psalter or Psalms of
        David and Certain Canticles with a translation and exposition in English
        by Richard Rolle of Hampole,_ ed. H. R. Bramley (Oxford, 1884). The
        commentary is said to be loosely based on Peter Lombard, though very much
        Rolle's own in some respects. A version of Rolle's psalter with Lollard
        interpolations is also extant in several manuscripts. For an old and
        probably unreliable edition of the interpolated version, see _Select
        English Works of John Wyclif,_ ed. T. Arnold, vol.3 (1871), pp. 5-81.

        Rolle also wrote a largely unrelated Latin commentary on the Psalms.

        For bibliography on Rolle's English psalter, see J. Burke Severs,
        Albert Hartung, et al., ed., _A Manual of the Writings in Middle
        English..._, vol. 2 (1970), sect.4, item no.12 (p.386 and bibliography
        pp. 538-39); and John Alford, "Richard Rolle and related works," in
        _Middle English Prose: A Critical Guide...,_ ed. A. S. G. Edwards
        (Rutgers Univ.Press, 1984), p. 51. That should be enough to start.

        William of Shoreham wrote heavily didactic verse ("De septem sacramentis,"
        etc.) circa 1330, but as far as I know never an English psalter, nor any
        other Biblical translation. See _The Poems of William of Shoreham_, ed.
        M. Konrath, Early English Text Society Extra Series 86 (1902).

        There are numerous other medieval English versions of the Psalter
        both in prose and in verse. The _Manual of the writings in ME_ (op.cit.,
        vol. 2, pp. 385-89) provides a decent summary of the ME ones; I don't
        suppose you care about the Old English ones.

        pfs
        --------------------------------------------------------------------
        Paul Schaffner | pfs@... | http://www-personal.umich.edu/~pfs/
        Production Mgr for electronic Middle English texts and Dictionary
        University of Michigan Digital Library Production Service
        --------------------------------------------------------------------
      • William L. Petersen
        My recollection is that they are facsimilies, a fact which is noted on the display cards. Even in the Western MSS Reading Room, ordering Sinaiticus or
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
          My recollection is that they are facsimilies, a fact which is noted on the
          display cards. Even in the Western MSS Reading Room, ordering Sinaiticus
          or Alexandrinus will not bring you the "real thing," but only a
          facsimilie--unless you are have some *real* need to see the original, and
          are a "known quantity" to the Keeper of MSS. The rationale is rather
          obvoius: they don't want each and every reader pawing over one of the most
          ancient extant MSS of the whole NT, just to do his first student collation.

          --Petersen, Penn State University.


          At 04:08 PM 12/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
          >At 03:23 PM 12/2/99 +0000, you wrote:
          >>I have examined facsimiles of Aleph and A in the British Library
          >>research rooms. My question is this. I assumed the documents
          >>on public display (under glass) were also photographically made
          >>copies. Is this the case?
          >>
          >
          >i think they are the real mccoy. i was at the BM a few years back and
          >inquired as to the genuiness of the mss and the person there gave me an evil
          >look like * you bloody git- this isnt a hall of pretend*.
          >
          >
          >>one miserable scribbler,
          >>Ron Minton
          >>
          >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
          >
          >Jim West, ThD
          >jwest@...
          >http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
          >
          >"This is the sort of nonsense up with which I will not put." Winston
          Churchill
          >
        • Bill Combs
          I have heard that if you make arrangements ahead of time, and if you have credentials from a theological school (etc.) you can view things not available to the
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
            I have heard that if you make arrangements ahead of time, and if you have
            credentials from a theological school (etc.) you can view things not
            available to the regular public. Any truth to this?
            --
            Bill Combs
            Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary

            > From: "Harold P. Scanlin" <scanlin@...>
            > Reply-To: tc-list@...
            > Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:10:07 -0500
            > To: "INTERNET:tc-list@..."
            > <tc-list@...>
            > Subject: Re: tc-list Alepf and A
            >
            > Kevin said:
            >
            >> I always assumed that the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus on
            > display
            >> in the British Museum were the "Real McCoy."
            >
            > I agree. By the way, it's the British Library. The new Library is some
            > distance form the Museum. The exhibit area is much nicer and visibility of
            > the manuscript is superior.
            >
            >
            > Harold P. Scanlin
            > United Bible Societies
            > 1865 Broadway
            > New York, NY 10023
            > scanlin@...
            >
          • Kevin W. Woodruff
            Ron: It looks like the TR was published in two parts. The first consisting of 324 pages and the second part consisting of 672 pages (actually it was 632 pages
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
              Ron:

              It looks like the TR was published in two parts. The first consisting of 324
              pages and the second part consisting of 672 pages (actually it was 632 pages
              due to misnumbering). It was 30.5 cm tall.

              Here is the catalog record:

              Bible. N.T. Greek. 1516.
              Novvm instrumentäu omne, diligenter ab Erasmo Roterodamo
              recognitum & emendatum, näo solum ad grµcam ueritatem, uerumetiam ad multorum
              utrisq[ue] linguµ codicum, eorumq[ue] ueterum simul & emendatorum fidem,
              postremo ad probatissimorum autorum citationem, emendationem &
              interpretationem, prµcipue, Origenis, Chrysostomi, Cyrilli, Vulgarij [i.e.
              Theophylacti archiepiscopi Bulgariae], Hieronymi, Cypriani, Ambrosij, Hilarij,
              Augustini, una cäu annotationibus, quµ lectorem doceant, quid qua ratione
              mutatum sit ...
              [Basileae, in aedibus Ioannis Frobenii, 1516]
              14 p. l., 324, 672 (i.e. 632), [3] p. 30 1/2 cm.
              Printer's marks on t.-p. and p. [635]; woodcut borders;
              initials; headpieces.
              Numerous errors in paging.
              Erasmus's first edition, and the first published edition of the
              N.T. in Greek. cf. British and foreign Bible soc. Historical catalogue,
              4591.
              The printing of this volume was partly under the supervision of
              Joannes Oecolampadius.
              Greek and Latin in parallel columns.



              At 04:03 PM 12/2/1999 +0000, you wrote:
              >I have read that Erasmus' 1516 Greek/Latin edition contained about
              >a thousand pages, but another source says 672 pages. Can
              >someone clarify this?
              >
              >Ron Minton
              >
              Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
              Library Director/Reference Librarian
              Professor of New Testament Greek
              Cierpke Memorial Library
              Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
              1815 Union Ave.
              Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
              United States of America
              423/493-4252 (office)
              423/698-9447 (home)
              423/493-4497 (FAX)
              Cierpke@... (preferred)
              kwoodruf@... (alternate)
              http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
            • Paul F. Schaffner
              To facilitate comparison, Psalm 23 as it appears in some of the chief Middle English psalm translations (including Rolle s) can be found at:
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
                To facilitate comparison, Psalm 23 as it appears in some of the chief
                Middle English psalm translations (including Rolle's) can be found at:

                http://ebbs.english.vt.edu/hel/psalm23.html

                pfs
              • Kevin W. Woodruff
                Ron: A good account of Rolle s translation of the Psalter is given on page 385-386 of Volume 2 of _The Cambridge History of the Bible_ edited by G. W. H. Lampe
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
                  Ron:

                  A good account of Rolle's translation of the Psalter is given on page
                  385-386 of Volume 2 of _The Cambridge History of the Bible_ edited by G. W.
                  H. Lampe (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1969):




                  At 04:25 PM 12/2/1999 +0000, you wrote:
                  >Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of
                  >the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or
                  >Richard Rolle?
                  >
                  >Ron Minton
                  >
                  Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
                  Library Director/Reference Librarian
                  Professor of New Testament Greek
                  Cierpke Memorial Library
                  Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
                  1815 Union Ave.
                  Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
                  United States of America
                  423/493-4252 (office)
                  423/698-9447 (home)
                  423/493-4497 (FAX)
                  Cierpke@... (preferred)
                  kwoodruf@... (alternate)
                  http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
                • Carlton Winbery
                  ... I have been at the British Library when the facsimile was on display, clearly marked (as William Peterson said), and I have been there when the original
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
                    >Kevin said:
                    >
                    >> I always assumed that the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus on
                    >display
                    >> in the British Museum were the "Real McCoy."
                    >
                    >I agree. By the way, it's the British Library. The new Library is some
                    >distance form the Museum. The exhibit area is much nicer and visibility of
                    >the manuscript is superior.
                    >
                    >
                    >Harold P. Scanlin
                    >United Bible Societies
                    >1865 Broadway
                    >New York, NY 10023
                    >scanlin@...

                    I have been at the British Library when the facsimile was on display,
                    clearly marked (as William Peterson said), and I have been there when the
                    original was on display. I have been privileged also (with a letter from
                    John Morgan-Wynn, then dean of Regents Park at Oxford) to examine Aleph and
                    A in the manuscript room first hand. Also the little scrap of Revelation
                    called P18. It is sealed between two pieces of glass.

                    They have very strict rules which you must read after being seated at the
                    table where you will examine the mss. One is you must never turn a page or
                    handle the ms with a pencil in your hand. You are only allowed to have a
                    lead pencil with you at the table, no ink or ink pens. I am not sure if you
                    could take a computer in with you, certainly no photo equipment, but you
                    can order photos of some of the pages.


                    Dr. Carlton L. Winbery
                    Foggleman Professor of Religion
                    Louisiana College
                    winbery@...
                    winbery@...
                    Ph. 1 318 448 6103 hm
                    Ph. 1 318 487 7241 off
                  • rlmullen@netpath.net
                    Richard Rolle of Hampole, THE PSALTER OR PSALMS OF DAVID, ed. by H. R. Bramley, (Oxford: Clarendon, 1884).
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
                      Richard Rolle of Hampole, THE PSALTER OR PSALMS OF DAVID, ed. by H. R.
                      Bramley, (Oxford: Clarendon, 1884).

                      At 04:25 PM 12/2/99 +0000, you wrote:
                      >Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of
                      >the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or
                      >Richard Rolle?
                      >
                      >Ron Minton
                      >
                    • Prof. Glen L. Thompson
                      ... - Bill Combs This is absolutely true, and holds for most of the libraries in Europe with manuscript collections. In August I spent several days at the
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 3, 1999
                        >I have heard that if you make arrangements ahead of time, and if >you have
                        >credentials from a theological school (etc.) you can view things not
                        >available to the regular public. Any truth to this?
                        ->Bill Combs

                        This is absolutely true, and holds for most of the libraries in Europe
                        with manuscript collections. In August I spent several days at the
                        British Library examing mss. The staff was very helpful and
                        courteous in every way.

                        However, if you want to see a really valuable mss, such as one of
                        the great uncials, you had better get permission in advance, and
                        that will mean getting some very well-known experts in the field to
                        verify your need to see the mss. and your qualifications to do so.
                        They will not allow the curious to touch such priceless treasures,
                        but will rather put the facsimiles or microfilms of them at such a
                        person's disposal.
                        Glen Thompson
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