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tc-list 1330 Psalms

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  • Ron Minton
    Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or Richard Rolle? Ron Minton
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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      Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of
      the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or
      Richard Rolle?

      Ron Minton
    • Harold P. Scanlin
      ... display ... I agree. By the way, it s the British Library. The new Library is some distance form the Museum. The exhibit area is much nicer and
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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        Kevin said:

        > I always assumed that the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus on
        display
        > in the British Museum were the "Real McCoy."

        I agree. By the way, it's the British Library. The new Library is some
        distance form the Museum. The exhibit area is much nicer and visibility of
        the manuscript is superior.


        Harold P. Scanlin
        United Bible Societies
        1865 Broadway
        New York, NY 10023
        scanlin@...
      • Harold P. Scanlin
        ... It s a little over 1000 pages. Tthe text is divided into two parts, separately paginated: 1) Gospels and Acts, 2) Romans to Revelation and Annotations.
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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          > I have read that Erasmus' 1516 Greek/Latin edition contained about
          > a thousand pages, but another source says 672 pages. Can
          > someone clarify this?

          It's a little over 1000 pages. Tthe text is divided into two parts,
          separately paginated: 1) Gospels and Acts, 2) Romans to Revelation and
          Annotations. Part two ends on page 675, or thereabouts. There are some
          pagination mistakes.

          Our library is closed today and tomorrow, so I can't check our copy.

          Harold P. Scanlin
          United Bible Societies
          1865 Broadway
          New York, NY 10023
          scanlin@...
        • Robert B. Waltz
          ... Rolle s translation (made from the Vulgate, of course), was in prose. I suspect it may have been amplified a little, as Rolle wrote other religious lyrics.
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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            On 12/2/99, Ron Minton wrote:

            >Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of
            >the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or
            >Richard Rolle?

            Rolle's translation (made from the Vulgate, of course), was in prose.
            I suspect it may have been amplified a little, as Rolle wrote other
            religious lyrics.

            The following is excerpted from the section on Rolle in Kenneth Sisam's
            _Fourteenth Century Verse and Prose_

            Richard Rolle of Hampole (d. 1349)

            Richard Rolle was born at Thornton-de-Dale, near Pickering, in
            Yorkshire. He was sent to Oxford [but] returned home without taking
            orders... and fled into solitude.

            He wrote both in Latin and in English, and it is not always easy to
            distinguish his work from that of his many followers and imitators.
            The writings attributed to him are edited by C. Horstman, _Yorkshire
            Writers_, 2 vols, London 1895-6.... [H]e wrote, at the request of
            Margaret Kirkby, a _Commentary on the Pslams_ (ed. Bramley, Oxford 1884)
            base don the Latin of Peter Lombard.

            Looking at the selections of his writings in Sisam, I would guess that
            he wrote in his native Yorkshire dialect. It's easier to understand
            than _Sir Gawain and the Green Knight_, but it's clearly harder
            than Chaucer. (Of course, it's also a half century earlier, but I
            have to think geography a greater factor than time in this instance.)
            His writings use yogh and thorn; I do not observe an eth. (It's a small
            sample, though.)

            A bibliography of works concerning Rolle can be found in the
            _Pelican Guide to English Literature_ Volume 1: The Age of
            Chaucer. p. 481.

            William of Shoreham (fl. c. 1325) seems to have been a much more
            obscure character. George K. Anderson, _Old and Middle English
            Literature from the Beginnings to 1485_, credits him with
            "heavy religious verse and ponderous expression," but says
            nothing more. I incline to think the description true, though,
            because I can't find any other references to him, and I find not
            a hint of his writings in my library. Doesn't sound like he did
            any Bible translating.

            -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

            Robert B. Waltz
            waltzmn@...

            Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism?
            Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn
            (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism)
          • Paul F. Schaffner
            ... Richard Rolle ( of Hampole ) wrote an English translation of the psalter, with commentary, c1340. For an edition, see _The Psalter or Psalms of David and
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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              > Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of
              > the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or
              > Richard Rolle?

              Richard Rolle ("of Hampole") wrote an English translation of the psalter,
              with commentary, c1340. For an edition, see _The Psalter or Psalms of
              David and Certain Canticles with a translation and exposition in English
              by Richard Rolle of Hampole,_ ed. H. R. Bramley (Oxford, 1884). The
              commentary is said to be loosely based on Peter Lombard, though very much
              Rolle's own in some respects. A version of Rolle's psalter with Lollard
              interpolations is also extant in several manuscripts. For an old and
              probably unreliable edition of the interpolated version, see _Select
              English Works of John Wyclif,_ ed. T. Arnold, vol.3 (1871), pp. 5-81.

              Rolle also wrote a largely unrelated Latin commentary on the Psalms.

              For bibliography on Rolle's English psalter, see J. Burke Severs,
              Albert Hartung, et al., ed., _A Manual of the Writings in Middle
              English..._, vol. 2 (1970), sect.4, item no.12 (p.386 and bibliography
              pp. 538-39); and John Alford, "Richard Rolle and related works," in
              _Middle English Prose: A Critical Guide...,_ ed. A. S. G. Edwards
              (Rutgers Univ.Press, 1984), p. 51. That should be enough to start.

              William of Shoreham wrote heavily didactic verse ("De septem sacramentis,"
              etc.) circa 1330, but as far as I know never an English psalter, nor any
              other Biblical translation. See _The Poems of William of Shoreham_, ed.
              M. Konrath, Early English Text Society Extra Series 86 (1902).

              There are numerous other medieval English versions of the Psalter
              both in prose and in verse. The _Manual of the writings in ME_ (op.cit.,
              vol. 2, pp. 385-89) provides a decent summary of the ME ones; I don't
              suppose you care about the Old English ones.

              pfs
              --------------------------------------------------------------------
              Paul Schaffner | pfs@... | http://www-personal.umich.edu/~pfs/
              Production Mgr for electronic Middle English texts and Dictionary
              University of Michigan Digital Library Production Service
              --------------------------------------------------------------------
            • William L. Petersen
              My recollection is that they are facsimilies, a fact which is noted on the display cards. Even in the Western MSS Reading Room, ordering Sinaiticus or
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                My recollection is that they are facsimilies, a fact which is noted on the
                display cards. Even in the Western MSS Reading Room, ordering Sinaiticus
                or Alexandrinus will not bring you the "real thing," but only a
                facsimilie--unless you are have some *real* need to see the original, and
                are a "known quantity" to the Keeper of MSS. The rationale is rather
                obvoius: they don't want each and every reader pawing over one of the most
                ancient extant MSS of the whole NT, just to do his first student collation.

                --Petersen, Penn State University.


                At 04:08 PM 12/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
                >At 03:23 PM 12/2/99 +0000, you wrote:
                >>I have examined facsimiles of Aleph and A in the British Library
                >>research rooms. My question is this. I assumed the documents
                >>on public display (under glass) were also photographically made
                >>copies. Is this the case?
                >>
                >
                >i think they are the real mccoy. i was at the BM a few years back and
                >inquired as to the genuiness of the mss and the person there gave me an evil
                >look like * you bloody git- this isnt a hall of pretend*.
                >
                >
                >>one miserable scribbler,
                >>Ron Minton
                >>
                >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                >
                >Jim West, ThD
                >jwest@...
                >http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
                >
                >"This is the sort of nonsense up with which I will not put." Winston
                Churchill
                >
              • Bill Combs
                I have heard that if you make arrangements ahead of time, and if you have credentials from a theological school (etc.) you can view things not available to the
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                  I have heard that if you make arrangements ahead of time, and if you have
                  credentials from a theological school (etc.) you can view things not
                  available to the regular public. Any truth to this?
                  --
                  Bill Combs
                  Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary

                  > From: "Harold P. Scanlin" <scanlin@...>
                  > Reply-To: tc-list@...
                  > Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:10:07 -0500
                  > To: "INTERNET:tc-list@..."
                  > <tc-list@...>
                  > Subject: Re: tc-list Alepf and A
                  >
                  > Kevin said:
                  >
                  >> I always assumed that the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus on
                  > display
                  >> in the British Museum were the "Real McCoy."
                  >
                  > I agree. By the way, it's the British Library. The new Library is some
                  > distance form the Museum. The exhibit area is much nicer and visibility of
                  > the manuscript is superior.
                  >
                  >
                  > Harold P. Scanlin
                  > United Bible Societies
                  > 1865 Broadway
                  > New York, NY 10023
                  > scanlin@...
                  >
                • Kevin W. Woodruff
                  Ron: It looks like the TR was published in two parts. The first consisting of 324 pages and the second part consisting of 672 pages (actually it was 632 pages
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                    Ron:

                    It looks like the TR was published in two parts. The first consisting of 324
                    pages and the second part consisting of 672 pages (actually it was 632 pages
                    due to misnumbering). It was 30.5 cm tall.

                    Here is the catalog record:

                    Bible. N.T. Greek. 1516.
                    Novvm instrumentäu omne, diligenter ab Erasmo Roterodamo
                    recognitum & emendatum, näo solum ad grµcam ueritatem, uerumetiam ad multorum
                    utrisq[ue] linguµ codicum, eorumq[ue] ueterum simul & emendatorum fidem,
                    postremo ad probatissimorum autorum citationem, emendationem &
                    interpretationem, prµcipue, Origenis, Chrysostomi, Cyrilli, Vulgarij [i.e.
                    Theophylacti archiepiscopi Bulgariae], Hieronymi, Cypriani, Ambrosij, Hilarij,
                    Augustini, una cäu annotationibus, quµ lectorem doceant, quid qua ratione
                    mutatum sit ...
                    [Basileae, in aedibus Ioannis Frobenii, 1516]
                    14 p. l., 324, 672 (i.e. 632), [3] p. 30 1/2 cm.
                    Printer's marks on t.-p. and p. [635]; woodcut borders;
                    initials; headpieces.
                    Numerous errors in paging.
                    Erasmus's first edition, and the first published edition of the
                    N.T. in Greek. cf. British and foreign Bible soc. Historical catalogue,
                    4591.
                    The printing of this volume was partly under the supervision of
                    Joannes Oecolampadius.
                    Greek and Latin in parallel columns.



                    At 04:03 PM 12/2/1999 +0000, you wrote:
                    >I have read that Erasmus' 1516 Greek/Latin edition contained about
                    >a thousand pages, but another source says 672 pages. Can
                    >someone clarify this?
                    >
                    >Ron Minton
                    >
                    Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
                    Library Director/Reference Librarian
                    Professor of New Testament Greek
                    Cierpke Memorial Library
                    Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
                    1815 Union Ave.
                    Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
                    United States of America
                    423/493-4252 (office)
                    423/698-9447 (home)
                    423/493-4497 (FAX)
                    Cierpke@... (preferred)
                    kwoodruf@... (alternate)
                    http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
                  • Paul F. Schaffner
                    To facilitate comparison, Psalm 23 as it appears in some of the chief Middle English psalm translations (including Rolle s) can be found at:
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                      To facilitate comparison, Psalm 23 as it appears in some of the chief
                      Middle English psalm translations (including Rolle's) can be found at:

                      http://ebbs.english.vt.edu/hel/psalm23.html

                      pfs
                    • Kevin W. Woodruff
                      Ron: A good account of Rolle s translation of the Psalter is given on page 385-386 of Volume 2 of _The Cambridge History of the Bible_ edited by G. W. H. Lampe
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                        Ron:

                        A good account of Rolle's translation of the Psalter is given on page
                        385-386 of Volume 2 of _The Cambridge History of the Bible_ edited by G. W.
                        H. Lampe (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1969):




                        At 04:25 PM 12/2/1999 +0000, you wrote:
                        >Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of
                        >the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or
                        >Richard Rolle?
                        >
                        >Ron Minton
                        >
                        Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
                        Library Director/Reference Librarian
                        Professor of New Testament Greek
                        Cierpke Memorial Library
                        Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
                        1815 Union Ave.
                        Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
                        United States of America
                        423/493-4252 (office)
                        423/698-9447 (home)
                        423/493-4497 (FAX)
                        Cierpke@... (preferred)
                        kwoodruf@... (alternate)
                        http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
                      • Carlton Winbery
                        ... I have been at the British Library when the facsimile was on display, clearly marked (as William Peterson said), and I have been there when the original
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                          >Kevin said:
                          >
                          >> I always assumed that the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus on
                          >display
                          >> in the British Museum were the "Real McCoy."
                          >
                          >I agree. By the way, it's the British Library. The new Library is some
                          >distance form the Museum. The exhibit area is much nicer and visibility of
                          >the manuscript is superior.
                          >
                          >
                          >Harold P. Scanlin
                          >United Bible Societies
                          >1865 Broadway
                          >New York, NY 10023
                          >scanlin@...

                          I have been at the British Library when the facsimile was on display,
                          clearly marked (as William Peterson said), and I have been there when the
                          original was on display. I have been privileged also (with a letter from
                          John Morgan-Wynn, then dean of Regents Park at Oxford) to examine Aleph and
                          A in the manuscript room first hand. Also the little scrap of Revelation
                          called P18. It is sealed between two pieces of glass.

                          They have very strict rules which you must read after being seated at the
                          table where you will examine the mss. One is you must never turn a page or
                          handle the ms with a pencil in your hand. You are only allowed to have a
                          lead pencil with you at the table, no ink or ink pens. I am not sure if you
                          could take a computer in with you, certainly no photo equipment, but you
                          can order photos of some of the pages.


                          Dr. Carlton L. Winbery
                          Foggleman Professor of Religion
                          Louisiana College
                          winbery@...
                          winbery@...
                          Ph. 1 318 448 6103 hm
                          Ph. 1 318 487 7241 off
                        • rlmullen@netpath.net
                          Richard Rolle of Hampole, THE PSALTER OR PSALMS OF DAVID, ed. by H. R. Bramley, (Oxford: Clarendon, 1884).
                          Message 12 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                            Richard Rolle of Hampole, THE PSALTER OR PSALMS OF DAVID, ed. by H. R.
                            Bramley, (Oxford: Clarendon, 1884).

                            At 04:25 PM 12/2/99 +0000, you wrote:
                            >Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of
                            >the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or
                            >Richard Rolle?
                            >
                            >Ron Minton
                            >
                          • Prof. Glen L. Thompson
                            ... - Bill Combs This is absolutely true, and holds for most of the libraries in Europe with manuscript collections. In August I spent several days at the
                            Message 13 of 30 , Dec 3, 1999
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                              >I have heard that if you make arrangements ahead of time, and if >you have
                              >credentials from a theological school (etc.) you can view things not
                              >available to the regular public. Any truth to this?
                              ->Bill Combs

                              This is absolutely true, and holds for most of the libraries in Europe
                              with manuscript collections. In August I spent several days at the
                              British Library examing mss. The staff was very helpful and
                              courteous in every way.

                              However, if you want to see a really valuable mss, such as one of
                              the great uncials, you had better get permission in advance, and
                              that will mean getting some very well-known experts in the field to
                              verify your need to see the mss. and your qualifications to do so.
                              They will not allow the curious to touch such priceless treasures,
                              but will rather put the facsimiles or microfilms of them at such a
                              person's disposal.
                              Glen Thompson
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