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tc-list Alepf and A

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  • Ron Minton
    I have examined facsimiles of Aleph and A in the British Library research rooms. My question is this. I assumed the documents on public display (under glass)
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 2 7:23 AM
      I have examined facsimiles of Aleph and A in the British Library
      research rooms. My question is this. I assumed the documents
      on public display (under glass) were also photographically made
      copies. Is this the case?

      one miserable scribbler,
      Ron Minton
    • Ron Minton
      I have read that Erasmus 1516 Greek/Latin edition contained about a thousand pages, but another source says 672 pages. Can someone clarify this? Ron Minton
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 2 8:03 AM
        I have read that Erasmus' 1516 Greek/Latin edition contained about
        a thousand pages, but another source says 672 pages. Can
        someone clarify this?

        Ron Minton
      • Ron Minton
        Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or Richard Rolle? Ron Minton
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 2 8:25 AM
          Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of
          the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or
          Richard Rolle?

          Ron Minton
        • Jim West
          ... i think they are the real mccoy. i was at the BM a few years back and inquired as to the genuiness of the mss and the person there gave me an evil look
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 2 1:08 PM
            At 03:23 PM 12/2/99 +0000, you wrote:
            >I have examined facsimiles of Aleph and A in the British Library
            >research rooms. My question is this. I assumed the documents
            >on public display (under glass) were also photographically made
            >copies. Is this the case?
            >

            i think they are the real mccoy. i was at the BM a few years back and
            inquired as to the genuiness of the mss and the person there gave me an evil
            look like * you bloody git- this isnt a hall of pretend*.


            >one miserable scribbler,
            >Ron Minton
            >
            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

            Jim West, ThD
            jwest@...
            http://web.infoave.net/~jwest

            "This is the sort of nonsense up with which I will not put." Winston Churchill
          • Kevin W. Woodruff
            Ron: I always assumed that the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus on display in the British Museum were the Real McCoy. Kevin ... Kevin W. Woodruff,
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 2 1:15 PM
              Ron:

              I always assumed that the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus on display
              in the British Museum were the "Real McCoy."

              Kevin

              At 03:23 PM 12/2/1999 +0000, you wrote:
              >I have examined facsimiles of Aleph and A in the British Library
              >research rooms. My question is this. I assumed the documents
              >on public display (under glass) were also photographically made
              >copies. Is this the case?
              >
              >one miserable scribbler,
              >Ron Minton
              >
              Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
              Library Director/Reference Librarian
              Professor of New Testament Greek
              Cierpke Memorial Library
              Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
              1815 Union Ave.
              Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
              United States of America
              423/493-4252 (office)
              423/698-9447 (home)
              423/493-4497 (FAX)
              Cierpke@... (preferred)
              kwoodruf@... (alternate)
              http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
            • Harold P. Scanlin
              ... display ... I agree. By the way, it s the British Library. The new Library is some distance form the Museum. The exhibit area is much nicer and
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 2 2:10 PM
                Kevin said:

                > I always assumed that the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus on
                display
                > in the British Museum were the "Real McCoy."

                I agree. By the way, it's the British Library. The new Library is some
                distance form the Museum. The exhibit area is much nicer and visibility of
                the manuscript is superior.


                Harold P. Scanlin
                United Bible Societies
                1865 Broadway
                New York, NY 10023
                scanlin@...
              • Harold P. Scanlin
                ... It s a little over 1000 pages. Tthe text is divided into two parts, separately paginated: 1) Gospels and Acts, 2) Romans to Revelation and Annotations.
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 2 2:10 PM
                  > I have read that Erasmus' 1516 Greek/Latin edition contained about
                  > a thousand pages, but another source says 672 pages. Can
                  > someone clarify this?

                  It's a little over 1000 pages. Tthe text is divided into two parts,
                  separately paginated: 1) Gospels and Acts, 2) Romans to Revelation and
                  Annotations. Part two ends on page 675, or thereabouts. There are some
                  pagination mistakes.

                  Our library is closed today and tomorrow, so I can't check our copy.

                  Harold P. Scanlin
                  United Bible Societies
                  1865 Broadway
                  New York, NY 10023
                  scanlin@...
                • Robert B. Waltz
                  ... Rolle s translation (made from the Vulgate, of course), was in prose. I suspect it may have been amplified a little, as Rolle wrote other religious lyrics.
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 2 2:27 PM
                    On 12/2/99, Ron Minton wrote:

                    >Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of
                    >the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or
                    >Richard Rolle?

                    Rolle's translation (made from the Vulgate, of course), was in prose.
                    I suspect it may have been amplified a little, as Rolle wrote other
                    religious lyrics.

                    The following is excerpted from the section on Rolle in Kenneth Sisam's
                    _Fourteenth Century Verse and Prose_

                    Richard Rolle of Hampole (d. 1349)

                    Richard Rolle was born at Thornton-de-Dale, near Pickering, in
                    Yorkshire. He was sent to Oxford [but] returned home without taking
                    orders... and fled into solitude.

                    He wrote both in Latin and in English, and it is not always easy to
                    distinguish his work from that of his many followers and imitators.
                    The writings attributed to him are edited by C. Horstman, _Yorkshire
                    Writers_, 2 vols, London 1895-6.... [H]e wrote, at the request of
                    Margaret Kirkby, a _Commentary on the Pslams_ (ed. Bramley, Oxford 1884)
                    base don the Latin of Peter Lombard.

                    Looking at the selections of his writings in Sisam, I would guess that
                    he wrote in his native Yorkshire dialect. It's easier to understand
                    than _Sir Gawain and the Green Knight_, but it's clearly harder
                    than Chaucer. (Of course, it's also a half century earlier, but I
                    have to think geography a greater factor than time in this instance.)
                    His writings use yogh and thorn; I do not observe an eth. (It's a small
                    sample, though.)

                    A bibliography of works concerning Rolle can be found in the
                    _Pelican Guide to English Literature_ Volume 1: The Age of
                    Chaucer. p. 481.

                    William of Shoreham (fl. c. 1325) seems to have been a much more
                    obscure character. George K. Anderson, _Old and Middle English
                    Literature from the Beginnings to 1485_, credits him with
                    "heavy religious verse and ponderous expression," but says
                    nothing more. I incline to think the description true, though,
                    because I can't find any other references to him, and I find not
                    a hint of his writings in my library. Doesn't sound like he did
                    any Bible translating.

                    -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

                    Robert B. Waltz
                    waltzmn@...

                    Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism?
                    Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn
                    (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism)
                  • Paul F. Schaffner
                    ... Richard Rolle ( of Hampole ) wrote an English translation of the psalter, with commentary, c1340. For an edition, see _The Psalter or Psalms of David and
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 2 2:54 PM
                      > Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of
                      > the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or
                      > Richard Rolle?

                      Richard Rolle ("of Hampole") wrote an English translation of the psalter,
                      with commentary, c1340. For an edition, see _The Psalter or Psalms of
                      David and Certain Canticles with a translation and exposition in English
                      by Richard Rolle of Hampole,_ ed. H. R. Bramley (Oxford, 1884). The
                      commentary is said to be loosely based on Peter Lombard, though very much
                      Rolle's own in some respects. A version of Rolle's psalter with Lollard
                      interpolations is also extant in several manuscripts. For an old and
                      probably unreliable edition of the interpolated version, see _Select
                      English Works of John Wyclif,_ ed. T. Arnold, vol.3 (1871), pp. 5-81.

                      Rolle also wrote a largely unrelated Latin commentary on the Psalms.

                      For bibliography on Rolle's English psalter, see J. Burke Severs,
                      Albert Hartung, et al., ed., _A Manual of the Writings in Middle
                      English..._, vol. 2 (1970), sect.4, item no.12 (p.386 and bibliography
                      pp. 538-39); and John Alford, "Richard Rolle and related works," in
                      _Middle English Prose: A Critical Guide...,_ ed. A. S. G. Edwards
                      (Rutgers Univ.Press, 1984), p. 51. That should be enough to start.

                      William of Shoreham wrote heavily didactic verse ("De septem sacramentis,"
                      etc.) circa 1330, but as far as I know never an English psalter, nor any
                      other Biblical translation. See _The Poems of William of Shoreham_, ed.
                      M. Konrath, Early English Text Society Extra Series 86 (1902).

                      There are numerous other medieval English versions of the Psalter
                      both in prose and in verse. The _Manual of the writings in ME_ (op.cit.,
                      vol. 2, pp. 385-89) provides a decent summary of the ME ones; I don't
                      suppose you care about the Old English ones.

                      pfs
                      --------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Paul Schaffner | pfs@... | http://www-personal.umich.edu/~pfs/
                      Production Mgr for electronic Middle English texts and Dictionary
                      University of Michigan Digital Library Production Service
                      --------------------------------------------------------------------
                    • William L. Petersen
                      My recollection is that they are facsimilies, a fact which is noted on the display cards. Even in the Western MSS Reading Room, ordering Sinaiticus or
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 2 2:56 PM
                        My recollection is that they are facsimilies, a fact which is noted on the
                        display cards. Even in the Western MSS Reading Room, ordering Sinaiticus
                        or Alexandrinus will not bring you the "real thing," but only a
                        facsimilie--unless you are have some *real* need to see the original, and
                        are a "known quantity" to the Keeper of MSS. The rationale is rather
                        obvoius: they don't want each and every reader pawing over one of the most
                        ancient extant MSS of the whole NT, just to do his first student collation.

                        --Petersen, Penn State University.


                        At 04:08 PM 12/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
                        >At 03:23 PM 12/2/99 +0000, you wrote:
                        >>I have examined facsimiles of Aleph and A in the British Library
                        >>research rooms. My question is this. I assumed the documents
                        >>on public display (under glass) were also photographically made
                        >>copies. Is this the case?
                        >>
                        >
                        >i think they are the real mccoy. i was at the BM a few years back and
                        >inquired as to the genuiness of the mss and the person there gave me an evil
                        >look like * you bloody git- this isnt a hall of pretend*.
                        >
                        >
                        >>one miserable scribbler,
                        >>Ron Minton
                        >>
                        >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                        >
                        >Jim West, ThD
                        >jwest@...
                        >http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
                        >
                        >"This is the sort of nonsense up with which I will not put." Winston
                        Churchill
                        >
                      • Bill Combs
                        I have heard that if you make arrangements ahead of time, and if you have credentials from a theological school (etc.) you can view things not available to the
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 2 3:07 PM
                          I have heard that if you make arrangements ahead of time, and if you have
                          credentials from a theological school (etc.) you can view things not
                          available to the regular public. Any truth to this?
                          --
                          Bill Combs
                          Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary

                          > From: "Harold P. Scanlin" <scanlin@...>
                          > Reply-To: tc-list@...
                          > Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:10:07 -0500
                          > To: "INTERNET:tc-list@..."
                          > <tc-list@...>
                          > Subject: Re: tc-list Alepf and A
                          >
                          > Kevin said:
                          >
                          >> I always assumed that the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus on
                          > display
                          >> in the British Museum were the "Real McCoy."
                          >
                          > I agree. By the way, it's the British Library. The new Library is some
                          > distance form the Museum. The exhibit area is much nicer and visibility of
                          > the manuscript is superior.
                          >
                          >
                          > Harold P. Scanlin
                          > United Bible Societies
                          > 1865 Broadway
                          > New York, NY 10023
                          > scanlin@...
                          >
                        • Kevin W. Woodruff
                          Ron: It looks like the TR was published in two parts. The first consisting of 324 pages and the second part consisting of 672 pages (actually it was 632 pages
                          Message 12 of 30 , Dec 2 3:20 PM
                            Ron:

                            It looks like the TR was published in two parts. The first consisting of 324
                            pages and the second part consisting of 672 pages (actually it was 632 pages
                            due to misnumbering). It was 30.5 cm tall.

                            Here is the catalog record:

                            Bible. N.T. Greek. 1516.
                            Novvm instrumentäu omne, diligenter ab Erasmo Roterodamo
                            recognitum & emendatum, näo solum ad grµcam ueritatem, uerumetiam ad multorum
                            utrisq[ue] linguµ codicum, eorumq[ue] ueterum simul & emendatorum fidem,
                            postremo ad probatissimorum autorum citationem, emendationem &
                            interpretationem, prµcipue, Origenis, Chrysostomi, Cyrilli, Vulgarij [i.e.
                            Theophylacti archiepiscopi Bulgariae], Hieronymi, Cypriani, Ambrosij, Hilarij,
                            Augustini, una cäu annotationibus, quµ lectorem doceant, quid qua ratione
                            mutatum sit ...
                            [Basileae, in aedibus Ioannis Frobenii, 1516]
                            14 p. l., 324, 672 (i.e. 632), [3] p. 30 1/2 cm.
                            Printer's marks on t.-p. and p. [635]; woodcut borders;
                            initials; headpieces.
                            Numerous errors in paging.
                            Erasmus's first edition, and the first published edition of the
                            N.T. in Greek. cf. British and foreign Bible soc. Historical catalogue,
                            4591.
                            The printing of this volume was partly under the supervision of
                            Joannes Oecolampadius.
                            Greek and Latin in parallel columns.



                            At 04:03 PM 12/2/1999 +0000, you wrote:
                            >I have read that Erasmus' 1516 Greek/Latin edition contained about
                            >a thousand pages, but another source says 672 pages. Can
                            >someone clarify this?
                            >
                            >Ron Minton
                            >
                            Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
                            Library Director/Reference Librarian
                            Professor of New Testament Greek
                            Cierpke Memorial Library
                            Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
                            1815 Union Ave.
                            Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
                            United States of America
                            423/493-4252 (office)
                            423/698-9447 (home)
                            423/493-4497 (FAX)
                            Cierpke@... (preferred)
                            kwoodruf@... (alternate)
                            http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
                          • Paul F. Schaffner
                            To facilitate comparison, Psalm 23 as it appears in some of the chief Middle English psalm translations (including Rolle s) can be found at:
                            Message 13 of 30 , Dec 2 4:17 PM
                              To facilitate comparison, Psalm 23 as it appears in some of the chief
                              Middle English psalm translations (including Rolle's) can be found at:

                              http://ebbs.english.vt.edu/hel/psalm23.html

                              pfs
                            • Kevin W. Woodruff
                              Ron: A good account of Rolle s translation of the Psalter is given on page 385-386 of Volume 2 of _The Cambridge History of the Bible_ edited by G. W. H. Lampe
                              Message 14 of 30 , Dec 2 4:56 PM
                                Ron:

                                A good account of Rolle's translation of the Psalter is given on page
                                385-386 of Volume 2 of _The Cambridge History of the Bible_ edited by G. W.
                                H. Lampe (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1969):




                                At 04:25 PM 12/2/1999 +0000, you wrote:
                                >Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of
                                >the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or
                                >Richard Rolle?
                                >
                                >Ron Minton
                                >
                                Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
                                Library Director/Reference Librarian
                                Professor of New Testament Greek
                                Cierpke Memorial Library
                                Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
                                1815 Union Ave.
                                Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
                                United States of America
                                423/493-4252 (office)
                                423/698-9447 (home)
                                423/493-4497 (FAX)
                                Cierpke@... (preferred)
                                kwoodruf@... (alternate)
                                http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
                              • Carlton Winbery
                                ... I have been at the British Library when the facsimile was on display, clearly marked (as William Peterson said), and I have been there when the original
                                Message 15 of 30 , Dec 2 8:00 PM
                                  >Kevin said:
                                  >
                                  >> I always assumed that the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus on
                                  >display
                                  >> in the British Museum were the "Real McCoy."
                                  >
                                  >I agree. By the way, it's the British Library. The new Library is some
                                  >distance form the Museum. The exhibit area is much nicer and visibility of
                                  >the manuscript is superior.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Harold P. Scanlin
                                  >United Bible Societies
                                  >1865 Broadway
                                  >New York, NY 10023
                                  >scanlin@...

                                  I have been at the British Library when the facsimile was on display,
                                  clearly marked (as William Peterson said), and I have been there when the
                                  original was on display. I have been privileged also (with a letter from
                                  John Morgan-Wynn, then dean of Regents Park at Oxford) to examine Aleph and
                                  A in the manuscript room first hand. Also the little scrap of Revelation
                                  called P18. It is sealed between two pieces of glass.

                                  They have very strict rules which you must read after being seated at the
                                  table where you will examine the mss. One is you must never turn a page or
                                  handle the ms with a pencil in your hand. You are only allowed to have a
                                  lead pencil with you at the table, no ink or ink pens. I am not sure if you
                                  could take a computer in with you, certainly no photo equipment, but you
                                  can order photos of some of the pages.


                                  Dr. Carlton L. Winbery
                                  Foggleman Professor of Religion
                                  Louisiana College
                                  winbery@...
                                  winbery@...
                                  Ph. 1 318 448 6103 hm
                                  Ph. 1 318 487 7241 off
                                • rlmullen@netpath.net
                                  Richard Rolle of Hampole, THE PSALTER OR PSALMS OF DAVID, ed. by H. R. Bramley, (Oxford: Clarendon, 1884).
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Dec 2 9:44 PM
                                    Richard Rolle of Hampole, THE PSALTER OR PSALMS OF DAVID, ed. by H. R.
                                    Bramley, (Oxford: Clarendon, 1884).

                                    At 04:25 PM 12/2/99 +0000, you wrote:
                                    >Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of
                                    >the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or
                                    >Richard Rolle?
                                    >
                                    >Ron Minton
                                    >
                                  • Prof. Glen L. Thompson
                                    ... - Bill Combs This is absolutely true, and holds for most of the libraries in Europe with manuscript collections. In August I spent several days at the
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Dec 3 6:51 AM
                                      >I have heard that if you make arrangements ahead of time, and if >you have
                                      >credentials from a theological school (etc.) you can view things not
                                      >available to the regular public. Any truth to this?
                                      ->Bill Combs

                                      This is absolutely true, and holds for most of the libraries in Europe
                                      with manuscript collections. In August I spent several days at the
                                      British Library examing mss. The staff was very helpful and
                                      courteous in every way.

                                      However, if you want to see a really valuable mss, such as one of
                                      the great uncials, you had better get permission in advance, and
                                      that will mean getting some very well-known experts in the field to
                                      verify your need to see the mss. and your qualifications to do so.
                                      They will not allow the curious to touch such priceless treasures,
                                      but will rather put the facsimiles or microfilms of them at such a
                                      person's disposal.
                                      Glen Thompson
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