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Re: tc-list OT Hebrew mss #

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  • Jean Valentin
    Is there for the OT something similar to the Kurzgefasste Liste that exists for the NT? Just wondering if anybody centralizes a list of manuscript (in which
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 31, 1969
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      Is there for the OT something similar to the "Kurzgefasste Liste" that exists for the NT? Just wondering if anybody centralizes a list of manuscript (in which case I probably should tell him about my scrolls :-)

      Jean V.





      >Hi Ron:
      ><< I understand there are about 3,000 extant mss. of the Hebrew OT
      > (Brotzman OT Text Crit, p.58). Is this correct? The reason I ask is
      > I have read two comments this past week that there are only about
      > 300. Is there a list that mentions a more precise number?
      > thanks,
      > >>
      >
      >The way I understand the evidence, there are about 3,000 extant mss;
      >however, most are not complete copies of the OT. Many are limited to
      >the Torah or parts of it. For individual books outside of the Torah, there
      >are about 300 mss per book.
      >Blessings,
      >Jim Price


      _______________________________________________________________
      Dites-le avec des mots. Ca coûte moins cher.
      _______________________________________________________________
      Jean Valentin - 34 rue du Berceau - 1000 Bruxelles - Belgique
      e-mail : jgvalentin@...
      _______________________________________________________________
    • Barrett, David
      Following is a response to criticisms that have appeared on the TC-list regarding The Complete Text of the Earliest New Testament Manuscripts. I, David
      Message 2 of 30 , Jul 13, 1999
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        Following is a response to criticisms that have appeared on the TC-list
        regarding The Complete Text of the Earliest New Testament Manuscripts. I,
        David Barrett, am posting this for Dr. Comfort and myself, as he is not
        currently able to send and receive emails.

        In recent days, some individuals have offered some criticisms of our
        book, *The Complete Text of the Earliest New Testament Manuscripts*.
        This, of course, is not surprising, but rather, expected. The nature of
        this kind of work--and all the detail that goes into producing
        it--invites further revision. In the introduction to our book, we said:

        "We have done our best to provide an accurate transcription, always
        recognizing that our work may need emendation here and there. We
        therefore welcome any comments that will help make this book better."

        As far as we know, the only person to have offered specific suggestions
        for emendation is Maurice Robinson. (We will address his suggestions
        below.) The other criticisms are general, some of which we will also
        address.
        The most important issue has to do with the accuracy of the
        transcriptions. As this is our preeminent goal for the book, we desire
        nothing more than to provide the most accurate transcriptions possible.
        But this undoubtedly takes at least two printings to get it completely
        right. No one can expect it to be perfect in the first printing--no
        matter how much effort was put into it. Other eyes will see what none of
        us saw the first time around and then recommend emendations.
        Of course, our chiefest critics--one of whom is William Petersen--want
        to pan the book immediately because it has some errors. By contrast,
        Petersen claims that the Muenster Institute would never have printed a
        book with errors. In this regard, Petersen says:

        "Pause, for a moment, and think: Have `errors' been a problem with the
        work of the Muenster Institute? I think not. Their accuracy has been--and
        I use the word in its very best sense `Teutonic': meticulous, thorough,
        detailed, exhaustive. We may quibble with what was or was not included in
        the apparatus of a pocket edition--which is what NA27/UBS4 is; we may
        argue over what reading they took into the text. But errors? No."

        Petersen is wrong in this regard. The first printing of NA26 (which is
        now NA27) had many, many errors in the critical apparatus, especially
        with respect to the citations of the papyri. I (Comfort) noted several of
        these in the Gospel of John and wrote to Barbara Aland with my concerns.
        (I also published several corrections to NA26 in an article entitled,
        "The Greek Text of the Gospel of John Compiled from the Earliest Papyrus
        Manuscripts, As Compared to the Greek Text of NA26" in *New Testament
        Studies*, September, 1990). Barbara Aland wrote me a detailed letter in
        December of 1987 apologizing for the errors. She agreed that there were,
        indeed, a great many inaccuracies that they noticed in the critical
        apparatus of NA26 after the first printing. These mistakes, she assured
        me, would be corrected in future printings of the Nestle-Aland text. And
        most of them *were* corrected--in the Gospel of John and in several other
        books. By the way, the critical apparatus of UBS3 also went through a
        major revision after its first printing. That's why it was later called,
        "third, corrected edition."
        We make these points not to discredit the Nestle text or the work of the
        Muenster Institute but to argue the case that readers need to be fair in
        their criticisms. To use the proverbial expression, they shouldn't "throw
        out the baby with the bath water." In due course, the Muenster Institute
        got things right and made multiple corrections in their citations of the
        papyri, as also did the United Bible Societies. No one dare suggest that
        these two editions were worthless because they contained many errors;
        rather, all balanced criticisms encouraged revision. In like manner, we
        will be glad to consider all suggested emendations to our work for future
        printings.
        And now, let's look at Robinson's criticisms. He offers 22 emendations.
        In our estimation, 9 of these call for correction. They are as follows:
        1. insert DE (Acts 5:6 in 0189)
        2. an extra bracket needs to be deleted (Acts 5:12 in 0189)
        3. insert EN (Acts 5:12 in 0189)
        4. OUDEI should be written as OUQEI (Acts 5:13 in 0189)
        5. KAI should be moved from the beginning of a line to the end of the
        previous line (Acts 5:21 in 0189)
        6. the Greek article TO should be TA (John 2:15 in 0162)
        7. insert DE (John 8:15 in P75)
        8. note "d" on p. 580 for P75 should read APO THS T[RA]PEZ[HS], omitting
        the S before T[RA]PEZ[HS]. This is a typographical error. I had cited
        this correctly in *The Quest for the Original Text of the New Testament*,
        p. 187.
        9. note "c" on John 13:20 in P66 needs to be adjusted

        As to the rest of the emendations Robinson proposes, some (with respect
        to 0189) are debatable, and the rest are not debatable at all. What we
        transcribed is affirmed by the photographs, editio principes, and/or NA27
        for the other citations Robinson made with respect to P66, P75, and 0162.
        Unfortunately, our transcription of 0189 does have a few problems--there
        were some logistical reasons for this, which we have now discovered. We
        can assure our readers that our presentation of 0189 is not indicative of
        what appears in the rest of the book. In any event, these 9 errors that
        Robinson has cited for our book are minor; they amount to no more than
        seven words. True, they are errors and need correction. And, of course,
        there will be more errors spotted as time goes on. But such is the
        process of producing a better book.
        Therefore, we appeal to our critics to see the big picture. The book,
        even as it now stands, is a significant contribution to New Testament
        textual studies. We have provided transcriptions that are far more
        accurate than what was originally provided for certain manuscripts such
        as P45, P46, and P66 (especially). And we have brought together
        separately published fragments of certain manuscripts into one text, as
        well as provided new reconstructions.
        To pan this book is a mistake. To start over--as Robinson suggests--is
        unthinkable. For anyone who would like to start from scratch, he calls
        upon them to emulate the meticulousness of the International Greek New
        Testament Project (IGNTP) and the Muenster Institute. At this point, we
        must speak of our own participation in the IGNTP project on the papyri of
        John's Gospel. As participants in this project, we (Comfort and Barrett,
        along with other graduate students at Wheaton College) provided countless
        corrections to the first-draft transcription of P66, thereby vastly
        improving its accuracy. Then, we went way beyond this in our own work on
        P66. Just compare the two. Our point is this: Our aim in this work is the
        same as that shared by the IGNTP and the Muenster Institute; we all
        strive to present accurate replications of the NT manuscripts.
        Contrary to the opinions of Robinson and Petersen, we think the book
        will serve students and scholars well, as does the eminent papyrologist,
        T. C. Skeat, who recently wrote to Comfort, "I must congratulate you on
        the production of a work which will be of utmost value to scholars in
        many fields."

        Philip Comfort and David Barrett
      • Dr. Ron Minton
        I understand there are about 3,000 extant mss. of the Hebrew OT (Brotzman OT Text Crit, p.58). Is this correct? The reason I ask is I have read two comments
        Message 3 of 30 , Sep 21, 1999
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          I understand there are about 3,000 extant mss. of the Hebrew OT
          (Brotzman OT Text Crit, p.58). Is this correct? The reason I ask is
          I have read two comments this past week that there are only about
          300. Is there a list that mentions a more precise number?
          thanks,

          Ron Minton
        • Dr. Ron Minton
          I understand there are about 3,000 extant mss. of the Hebrew OT (Brotzman OT Text Crit, p.58). Is this correct? The reason I ask is I have read two comments
          Message 4 of 30 , Sep 21, 1999
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            I understand there are about 3,000 extant mss. of the Hebrew OT
            (Brotzman OT Text Crit, p.58). Is this correct? The reason I ask is
            I have read two comments this past week that there are only about
            300. Is there a list that mentions a more precise number?
            thanks,

            Ron Minton
          • DrJDPrice@aol.com
            Hi Ron:
            Message 5 of 30 , Sep 21, 1999
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              Hi Ron:
              << I understand there are about 3,000 extant mss. of the Hebrew OT
              (Brotzman OT Text Crit, p.58). Is this correct? The reason I ask is
              I have read two comments this past week that there are only about
              300. Is there a list that mentions a more precise number?
              thanks,
              >>

              The way I understand the evidence, there are about 3,000 extant mss;
              however, most are not complete copies of the OT. Many are limited to
              the Torah or parts of it. For individual books outside of the Torah, there
              are about 300 mss per book.
              Blessings,
              Jim Price
            • Harold P. Scanlin
              Brotzman s estimate of 3,000 manuscripts refers only to the number of post-1100 manuscripts that were collated and studied by Kennicott and de Rossi. The
              Message 6 of 30 , Sep 22, 1999
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                Brotzman's estimate of 3,000 manuscripts refers only to the number of
                post-1100 manuscripts that were collated and studied by Kennicott and de
                Rossi. The total number would be signifcantly larger, including the 200+
                Qumran biblical mss, the very extensive Cairo geniza mss, and the other
                pre-1100 mss.

                In his _Manuscritos hebreos y arameos de la Biblia_ (Rome: "Augustinianum",
                1971) Alejandro Diez Macho offers the following guesstimate: 59,000 Hebrew
                mss, both biblical and non-biblical, and there may be as many as 207,000
                fragments of Hebrew mss [the bulk of which would undoubtedly be the Geniza
                material]. Diez Macho then estimates that about 10% are biblical mss.

                In attempting to come up with a total, one needs to remember that the
                religious practice of producing torah scrolls is still active. Undoubtedly
                the vast majority of these torah scrolls are copies of the Rabbinic Bible
                text, although there is a project in Paris under the direction of C. Sirat
                and G. Biezunski to study the typology of torah scrolls.

                There is a great deal of information out there, though with significant
                gaps, regarding Hebrew manuscript collections. Unfortunately, there is
                nothing as yet approaching the thoroughness of the Gregory-Aland list. A
                good starting point for anyone interested in obtaining an overview of
                Hebrew mss is Benjamin Richler's _Guide to Hebrew Manuscript Collections_
                (Jerusalem: Israel Academy, 1994, with at least one update on their
                website). Richler's guide is related to the extensive work that JNUL is
                undertaking.

                Of course, none of this covers the Old Greek mss. For these we have the
                old Rahlfs list, but the Goettingen edition project maintains an up to date
                list, with reference numbers. I have heard rumors that they may be
                planning to publish a new list.

                Harold P. Scanlin
                United Bible Societies
                1865 Broadway
                New York, NY 10023
                scanlin@...
              • Joseph Crea
                Hello everyone! Here I am again showing off my ignorance (and lack of manners by asking off-topic questions). I recently encountered a couple of gentlemen who
                Message 7 of 30 , Sep 22, 1999
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                  Hello everyone!

                  Here I am again showing off my ignorance (and lack of manners by asking
                  off-topic questions). I recently encountered a couple of gentlemen who
                  mentioned that, besides the customary references to the Testimonium Flavium
                  (Antiq. xviii.iii.3) and the passing reference to James (Antiq. xx.ix.1),
                  Josephus had written a statement to the effect that a plaque had been
                  attached to the Temple walls proclaiming that "JESUS OF NAZARETH WAS PUT TO
                  DEATH FOR PROPHESYING THE DESTRUCTION OF THIS HOLY PLACE". When queried as
                  to the location of this remarkable bit of evidence they told me it was to
                  be found in the "Slavonic Additions" to the __Jewish Wars__ of Josephus.
                  I'll freely admit that until this point in time I had never even heard of
                  these "Additions", and am at a loss to locate any references to this
                  extraordinary addendum -- a quick search of the 'Net has turned up zilch.
                  Can anyone enlighten me as to the status and bona fides of this document?
                  Thanks in advance.


                  With Mettaa,

                  Joseph Crea
                  <Joseph.Crea@...>

                  With Mettaa
                • Mr. Gary S. Dykes
                  ... Augustinianum , ... Hebrew ... Yes, the Brotzman estimate needed defining, and your post prompted me to reply, perhaps I can add to your knowledgeable
                  Message 8 of 30 , Sep 22, 1999
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                    Scanlin wrote (in part):

                    > Brotzman's estimate of 3,000 manuscripts refers only to the number of
                    > post-1100 manuscripts that were collated and studied by Kennicott and de
                    > Rossi. The total number would be signifcantly larger, including the 200+
                    > Qumran biblical mss, the very extensive Cairo geniza mss, and the other
                    > pre-1100 mss.
                    >
                    > In his _Manuscritos hebreos y arameos de la Biblia_ (Rome:
                    "Augustinianum",
                    > 1971) Alejandro Diez Macho offers the following guesstimate: 59,000
                    Hebrew
                    > mss, both biblical and non-biblical, and there may be as many as 207,000
                    > fragments of Hebrew mss [the bulk of which would undoubtedly be the Geniza
                    > material]. Diez Macho then estimates that about 10% are biblical mss.
                    >

                    Yes, the Brotzman estimate needed defining, and your post prompted me to
                    reply, perhaps I can add to your knowledgeable input.

                    E. Tov suggest 6,000 Hebrew manuscripts of just the MT tradition. Of these
                    about 2,700 are dated, all being prior to 1540. He mentions an additional
                    100 or so "oriental" type codices of the Hebrew OT. Add to this number the
                    Qumran material, and we have a large number.

                    Yes, it would be nice to see an exhaustive list of all extant Hebrew MSS of
                    the Bible made before the printing press era, and a complete one, not just
                    the MT MSS.

                    at your service,
                    Mr. Gary S. Dykes yhwh3in1@...

                    Tov's estimates from his, TEXTUAL CRITICISM OF THE HEBREW BIBLE, 22ff.
                  • Jim West
                    ... Etienne Nodet is the fellow you need to ask about this. He knows Josephus better than any human alive and he has done extensive work on the slavonic text
                    Message 9 of 30 , Sep 23, 1999
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                      At 08:18 PM 9/22/99 -0500, you wrote:
                      >Hello everyone!
                      >
                      > Here I am again showing off my ignorance (and lack of manners by asking
                      >off-topic questions). I recently encountered a couple of gentlemen who
                      >mentioned that, besides the customary references to the Testimonium Flavium
                      >(Antiq. xviii.iii.3) and the passing reference to James (Antiq. xx.ix.1),
                      >Josephus had written a statement to the effect that a plaque had been
                      >attached to the Temple walls proclaiming that "JESUS OF NAZARETH WAS PUT TO
                      >DEATH FOR PROPHESYING THE DESTRUCTION OF THIS HOLY PLACE". When queried as
                      >to the location of this remarkable bit of evidence they told me it was to
                      >be found in the "Slavonic Additions" to the __Jewish Wars__ of Josephus.
                      >I'll freely admit that until this point in time I had never even heard of
                      >these "Additions", and am at a loss to locate any references to this
                      >extraordinary addendum -- a quick search of the 'Net has turned up zilch.
                      >Can anyone enlighten me as to the status and bona fides of this document?
                      >Thanks in advance.


                      Etienne Nodet is the fellow you need to ask about this. He knows Josephus
                      better than any human alive and he has done extensive work on the slavonic
                      text of Josephus.

                      If you want to pursue this contact me offlist and I will send along his
                      email address to you.

                      Best,

                      Jim

                      +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                      Jim West, ThD
                      email- jwest@...
                      web page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
                    • Harold P. Scanlin
                      Joseph Crea asked about the Slavonic Josephus. ... Flavium ... xx.ix.1), ... TO ... as ... It is a late expansionistic version, perhaps with additions intended
                      Message 10 of 30 , Sep 23, 1999
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                        Joseph Crea asked about the Slavonic Josephus.

                        > I recently encountered a couple of gentlemen who
                        > mentioned that, besides the customary references to the Testimonium
                        Flavium
                        > (Antiq. xviii.iii.3) and the passing reference to James (Antiq.
                        xx.ix.1),
                        > Josephus had written a statement to the effect that a plaque had been
                        > attached to the Temple walls proclaiming that "JESUS OF NAZARETH WAS PUT
                        TO
                        > DEATH FOR PROPHESYING THE DESTRUCTION OF THIS HOLY PLACE". When queried
                        as
                        > to the location of this remarkable bit of evidence they told me it was to
                        > be found in the "Slavonic Additions" to the __Jewish Wars__ of Josephus.
                        > Can anyone enlighten me as to the status and bona fides of this document?

                        It is a late expansionistic version, perhaps with additions intended to add
                        to the paucity of references to the historical Jesus. In addition to
                        Nodet, you may want to check Solomon Zeitlin's _Josephus on Jesus, with
                        particular reference to the Slavonic Josephus and the Hebrew Josippon_
                        (Philadelphia: Dropsie, 1931). Zeitlin was (in)famous for his view that
                        the DSS were forgeries, but his work on Josephus might be helpful.

                        Harold P. Scanlin
                        United Bible Societies
                        1865 Broadway
                        New York, NY 10023
                        scanlin@...
                      • Dr. Ron Minton
                        I need web sights where I can download a Greek NT in whole or in part? Thanks, Ron Minton
                        Message 11 of 30 , Nov 11, 1999
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                          I need web sights where I can download a Greek NT in whole or in
                          part?
                          Thanks,

                          Ron Minton
                        • Jim West
                          ... http://unbound.biola.edu/ follow the download bibles link on the left ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD jwest@highland.net
                          Message 12 of 30 , Nov 11, 1999
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                            At 03:18 PM 11/11/99 +0000, you wrote:
                            >I need web sights where I can download a Greek NT in whole or in
                            >part?
                            >Thanks,
                            >
                            >Ron Minton
                            >

                            http://unbound.biola.edu/
                            follow the download bibles link on the left
                            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                            Jim West, ThD
                            jwest@...
                            http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
                          • Maurice A. O'Sullivan
                            ... Go to Mark Goodacre s New Testament Gateway at: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre/links.htm Enjoy! Maurice Maurice A. O Sullivan [ Bray, Ireland ]
                            Message 13 of 30 , Nov 11, 1999
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                              At 15:18 11/11/99 +0000, you wrote:
                              >I need web sights where I can download a Greek NT in whole or in
                              >part?

                              Go to Mark Goodacre's New Testament Gateway at:
                              http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre/links.htm

                              Enjoy!
                              Maurice
                              Maurice A. O'Sullivan [ Bray, Ireland ]
                              mauros@...

                              [ subscribed to MSN Messenger
                              o_sullivanmauric@... ]
                            • Ron Minton
                              I have examined facsimiles of Aleph and A in the British Library research rooms. My question is this. I assumed the documents on public display (under glass)
                              Message 14 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                                I have examined facsimiles of Aleph and A in the British Library
                                research rooms. My question is this. I assumed the documents
                                on public display (under glass) were also photographically made
                                copies. Is this the case?

                                one miserable scribbler,
                                Ron Minton
                              • Ron Minton
                                I have read that Erasmus 1516 Greek/Latin edition contained about a thousand pages, but another source says 672 pages. Can someone clarify this? Ron Minton
                                Message 15 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                                  I have read that Erasmus' 1516 Greek/Latin edition contained about
                                  a thousand pages, but another source says 672 pages. Can
                                  someone clarify this?

                                  Ron Minton
                                • Ron Minton
                                  Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or Richard Rolle? Ron Minton
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                                    Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of
                                    the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or
                                    Richard Rolle?

                                    Ron Minton
                                  • Jim West
                                    ... i think they are the real mccoy. i was at the BM a few years back and inquired as to the genuiness of the mss and the person there gave me an evil look
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                                      At 03:23 PM 12/2/99 +0000, you wrote:
                                      >I have examined facsimiles of Aleph and A in the British Library
                                      >research rooms. My question is this. I assumed the documents
                                      >on public display (under glass) were also photographically made
                                      >copies. Is this the case?
                                      >

                                      i think they are the real mccoy. i was at the BM a few years back and
                                      inquired as to the genuiness of the mss and the person there gave me an evil
                                      look like * you bloody git- this isnt a hall of pretend*.


                                      >one miserable scribbler,
                                      >Ron Minton
                                      >
                                      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                                      Jim West, ThD
                                      jwest@...
                                      http://web.infoave.net/~jwest

                                      "This is the sort of nonsense up with which I will not put." Winston Churchill
                                    • Kevin W. Woodruff
                                      Ron: I always assumed that the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus on display in the British Museum were the Real McCoy. Kevin ... Kevin W. Woodruff,
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                                        Ron:

                                        I always assumed that the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus on display
                                        in the British Museum were the "Real McCoy."

                                        Kevin

                                        At 03:23 PM 12/2/1999 +0000, you wrote:
                                        >I have examined facsimiles of Aleph and A in the British Library
                                        >research rooms. My question is this. I assumed the documents
                                        >on public display (under glass) were also photographically made
                                        >copies. Is this the case?
                                        >
                                        >one miserable scribbler,
                                        >Ron Minton
                                        >
                                        Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
                                        Library Director/Reference Librarian
                                        Professor of New Testament Greek
                                        Cierpke Memorial Library
                                        Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
                                        1815 Union Ave.
                                        Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
                                        United States of America
                                        423/493-4252 (office)
                                        423/698-9447 (home)
                                        423/493-4497 (FAX)
                                        Cierpke@... (preferred)
                                        kwoodruf@... (alternate)
                                        http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
                                      • Harold P. Scanlin
                                        ... display ... I agree. By the way, it s the British Library. The new Library is some distance form the Museum. The exhibit area is much nicer and
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                                          Kevin said:

                                          > I always assumed that the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus on
                                          display
                                          > in the British Museum were the "Real McCoy."

                                          I agree. By the way, it's the British Library. The new Library is some
                                          distance form the Museum. The exhibit area is much nicer and visibility of
                                          the manuscript is superior.


                                          Harold P. Scanlin
                                          United Bible Societies
                                          1865 Broadway
                                          New York, NY 10023
                                          scanlin@...
                                        • Harold P. Scanlin
                                          ... It s a little over 1000 pages. Tthe text is divided into two parts, separately paginated: 1) Gospels and Acts, 2) Romans to Revelation and Annotations.
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                                            > I have read that Erasmus' 1516 Greek/Latin edition contained about
                                            > a thousand pages, but another source says 672 pages. Can
                                            > someone clarify this?

                                            It's a little over 1000 pages. Tthe text is divided into two parts,
                                            separately paginated: 1) Gospels and Acts, 2) Romans to Revelation and
                                            Annotations. Part two ends on page 675, or thereabouts. There are some
                                            pagination mistakes.

                                            Our library is closed today and tomorrow, so I can't check our copy.

                                            Harold P. Scanlin
                                            United Bible Societies
                                            1865 Broadway
                                            New York, NY 10023
                                            scanlin@...
                                          • Robert B. Waltz
                                            ... Rolle s translation (made from the Vulgate, of course), was in prose. I suspect it may have been amplified a little, as Rolle wrote other religious lyrics.
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                                              On 12/2/99, Ron Minton wrote:

                                              >Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of
                                              >the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or
                                              >Richard Rolle?

                                              Rolle's translation (made from the Vulgate, of course), was in prose.
                                              I suspect it may have been amplified a little, as Rolle wrote other
                                              religious lyrics.

                                              The following is excerpted from the section on Rolle in Kenneth Sisam's
                                              _Fourteenth Century Verse and Prose_

                                              Richard Rolle of Hampole (d. 1349)

                                              Richard Rolle was born at Thornton-de-Dale, near Pickering, in
                                              Yorkshire. He was sent to Oxford [but] returned home without taking
                                              orders... and fled into solitude.

                                              He wrote both in Latin and in English, and it is not always easy to
                                              distinguish his work from that of his many followers and imitators.
                                              The writings attributed to him are edited by C. Horstman, _Yorkshire
                                              Writers_, 2 vols, London 1895-6.... [H]e wrote, at the request of
                                              Margaret Kirkby, a _Commentary on the Pslams_ (ed. Bramley, Oxford 1884)
                                              base don the Latin of Peter Lombard.

                                              Looking at the selections of his writings in Sisam, I would guess that
                                              he wrote in his native Yorkshire dialect. It's easier to understand
                                              than _Sir Gawain and the Green Knight_, but it's clearly harder
                                              than Chaucer. (Of course, it's also a half century earlier, but I
                                              have to think geography a greater factor than time in this instance.)
                                              His writings use yogh and thorn; I do not observe an eth. (It's a small
                                              sample, though.)

                                              A bibliography of works concerning Rolle can be found in the
                                              _Pelican Guide to English Literature_ Volume 1: The Age of
                                              Chaucer. p. 481.

                                              William of Shoreham (fl. c. 1325) seems to have been a much more
                                              obscure character. George K. Anderson, _Old and Middle English
                                              Literature from the Beginnings to 1485_, credits him with
                                              "heavy religious verse and ponderous expression," but says
                                              nothing more. I incline to think the description true, though,
                                              because I can't find any other references to him, and I find not
                                              a hint of his writings in my library. Doesn't sound like he did
                                              any Bible translating.

                                              -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

                                              Robert B. Waltz
                                              waltzmn@...

                                              Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism?
                                              Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn
                                              (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism)
                                            • Paul F. Schaffner
                                              ... Richard Rolle ( of Hampole ) wrote an English translation of the psalter, with commentary, c1340. For an edition, see _The Psalter or Psalms of David and
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                                                > Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of
                                                > the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or
                                                > Richard Rolle?

                                                Richard Rolle ("of Hampole") wrote an English translation of the psalter,
                                                with commentary, c1340. For an edition, see _The Psalter or Psalms of
                                                David and Certain Canticles with a translation and exposition in English
                                                by Richard Rolle of Hampole,_ ed. H. R. Bramley (Oxford, 1884). The
                                                commentary is said to be loosely based on Peter Lombard, though very much
                                                Rolle's own in some respects. A version of Rolle's psalter with Lollard
                                                interpolations is also extant in several manuscripts. For an old and
                                                probably unreliable edition of the interpolated version, see _Select
                                                English Works of John Wyclif,_ ed. T. Arnold, vol.3 (1871), pp. 5-81.

                                                Rolle also wrote a largely unrelated Latin commentary on the Psalms.

                                                For bibliography on Rolle's English psalter, see J. Burke Severs,
                                                Albert Hartung, et al., ed., _A Manual of the Writings in Middle
                                                English..._, vol. 2 (1970), sect.4, item no.12 (p.386 and bibliography
                                                pp. 538-39); and John Alford, "Richard Rolle and related works," in
                                                _Middle English Prose: A Critical Guide...,_ ed. A. S. G. Edwards
                                                (Rutgers Univ.Press, 1984), p. 51. That should be enough to start.

                                                William of Shoreham wrote heavily didactic verse ("De septem sacramentis,"
                                                etc.) circa 1330, but as far as I know never an English psalter, nor any
                                                other Biblical translation. See _The Poems of William of Shoreham_, ed.
                                                M. Konrath, Early English Text Society Extra Series 86 (1902).

                                                There are numerous other medieval English versions of the Psalter
                                                both in prose and in verse. The _Manual of the writings in ME_ (op.cit.,
                                                vol. 2, pp. 385-89) provides a decent summary of the ME ones; I don't
                                                suppose you care about the Old English ones.

                                                pfs
                                                --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                Paul Schaffner | pfs@... | http://www-personal.umich.edu/~pfs/
                                                Production Mgr for electronic Middle English texts and Dictionary
                                                University of Michigan Digital Library Production Service
                                                --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                              • William L. Petersen
                                                My recollection is that they are facsimilies, a fact which is noted on the display cards. Even in the Western MSS Reading Room, ordering Sinaiticus or
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                                                  My recollection is that they are facsimilies, a fact which is noted on the
                                                  display cards. Even in the Western MSS Reading Room, ordering Sinaiticus
                                                  or Alexandrinus will not bring you the "real thing," but only a
                                                  facsimilie--unless you are have some *real* need to see the original, and
                                                  are a "known quantity" to the Keeper of MSS. The rationale is rather
                                                  obvoius: they don't want each and every reader pawing over one of the most
                                                  ancient extant MSS of the whole NT, just to do his first student collation.

                                                  --Petersen, Penn State University.


                                                  At 04:08 PM 12/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
                                                  >At 03:23 PM 12/2/99 +0000, you wrote:
                                                  >>I have examined facsimiles of Aleph and A in the British Library
                                                  >>research rooms. My question is this. I assumed the documents
                                                  >>on public display (under glass) were also photographically made
                                                  >>copies. Is this the case?
                                                  >>
                                                  >
                                                  >i think they are the real mccoy. i was at the BM a few years back and
                                                  >inquired as to the genuiness of the mss and the person there gave me an evil
                                                  >look like * you bloody git- this isnt a hall of pretend*.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >>one miserable scribbler,
                                                  >>Ron Minton
                                                  >>
                                                  >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                                  >
                                                  >Jim West, ThD
                                                  >jwest@...
                                                  >http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
                                                  >
                                                  >"This is the sort of nonsense up with which I will not put." Winston
                                                  Churchill
                                                  >
                                                • Bill Combs
                                                  I have heard that if you make arrangements ahead of time, and if you have credentials from a theological school (etc.) you can view things not available to the
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    I have heard that if you make arrangements ahead of time, and if you have
                                                    credentials from a theological school (etc.) you can view things not
                                                    available to the regular public. Any truth to this?
                                                    --
                                                    Bill Combs
                                                    Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary

                                                    > From: "Harold P. Scanlin" <scanlin@...>
                                                    > Reply-To: tc-list@...
                                                    > Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:10:07 -0500
                                                    > To: "INTERNET:tc-list@..."
                                                    > <tc-list@...>
                                                    > Subject: Re: tc-list Alepf and A
                                                    >
                                                    > Kevin said:
                                                    >
                                                    >> I always assumed that the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus on
                                                    > display
                                                    >> in the British Museum were the "Real McCoy."
                                                    >
                                                    > I agree. By the way, it's the British Library. The new Library is some
                                                    > distance form the Museum. The exhibit area is much nicer and visibility of
                                                    > the manuscript is superior.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Harold P. Scanlin
                                                    > United Bible Societies
                                                    > 1865 Broadway
                                                    > New York, NY 10023
                                                    > scanlin@...
                                                    >
                                                  • Kevin W. Woodruff
                                                    Ron: It looks like the TR was published in two parts. The first consisting of 324 pages and the second part consisting of 672 pages (actually it was 632 pages
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                                                      Ron:

                                                      It looks like the TR was published in two parts. The first consisting of 324
                                                      pages and the second part consisting of 672 pages (actually it was 632 pages
                                                      due to misnumbering). It was 30.5 cm tall.

                                                      Here is the catalog record:

                                                      Bible. N.T. Greek. 1516.
                                                      Novvm instrumentäu omne, diligenter ab Erasmo Roterodamo
                                                      recognitum & emendatum, näo solum ad grµcam ueritatem, uerumetiam ad multorum
                                                      utrisq[ue] linguµ codicum, eorumq[ue] ueterum simul & emendatorum fidem,
                                                      postremo ad probatissimorum autorum citationem, emendationem &
                                                      interpretationem, prµcipue, Origenis, Chrysostomi, Cyrilli, Vulgarij [i.e.
                                                      Theophylacti archiepiscopi Bulgariae], Hieronymi, Cypriani, Ambrosij, Hilarij,
                                                      Augustini, una cäu annotationibus, quµ lectorem doceant, quid qua ratione
                                                      mutatum sit ...
                                                      [Basileae, in aedibus Ioannis Frobenii, 1516]
                                                      14 p. l., 324, 672 (i.e. 632), [3] p. 30 1/2 cm.
                                                      Printer's marks on t.-p. and p. [635]; woodcut borders;
                                                      initials; headpieces.
                                                      Numerous errors in paging.
                                                      Erasmus's first edition, and the first published edition of the
                                                      N.T. in Greek. cf. British and foreign Bible soc. Historical catalogue,
                                                      4591.
                                                      The printing of this volume was partly under the supervision of
                                                      Joannes Oecolampadius.
                                                      Greek and Latin in parallel columns.



                                                      At 04:03 PM 12/2/1999 +0000, you wrote:
                                                      >I have read that Erasmus' 1516 Greek/Latin edition contained about
                                                      >a thousand pages, but another source says 672 pages. Can
                                                      >someone clarify this?
                                                      >
                                                      >Ron Minton
                                                      >
                                                      Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
                                                      Library Director/Reference Librarian
                                                      Professor of New Testament Greek
                                                      Cierpke Memorial Library
                                                      Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
                                                      1815 Union Ave.
                                                      Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
                                                      United States of America
                                                      423/493-4252 (office)
                                                      423/698-9447 (home)
                                                      423/493-4497 (FAX)
                                                      Cierpke@... (preferred)
                                                      kwoodruf@... (alternate)
                                                      http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
                                                    • Paul F. Schaffner
                                                      To facilitate comparison, Psalm 23 as it appears in some of the chief Middle English psalm translations (including Rolle s) can be found at:
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                                                        To facilitate comparison, Psalm 23 as it appears in some of the chief
                                                        Middle English psalm translations (including Rolle's) can be found at:

                                                        http://ebbs.english.vt.edu/hel/psalm23.html

                                                        pfs
                                                      • Kevin W. Woodruff
                                                        Ron: A good account of Rolle s translation of the Psalter is given on page 385-386 of Volume 2 of _The Cambridge History of the Bible_ edited by G. W. H. Lampe
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                                                          Ron:

                                                          A good account of Rolle's translation of the Psalter is given on page
                                                          385-386 of Volume 2 of _The Cambridge History of the Bible_ edited by G. W.
                                                          H. Lampe (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1969):




                                                          At 04:25 PM 12/2/1999 +0000, you wrote:
                                                          >Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of
                                                          >the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or
                                                          >Richard Rolle?
                                                          >
                                                          >Ron Minton
                                                          >
                                                          Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
                                                          Library Director/Reference Librarian
                                                          Professor of New Testament Greek
                                                          Cierpke Memorial Library
                                                          Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
                                                          1815 Union Ave.
                                                          Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
                                                          United States of America
                                                          423/493-4252 (office)
                                                          423/698-9447 (home)
                                                          423/493-4497 (FAX)
                                                          Cierpke@... (preferred)
                                                          kwoodruf@... (alternate)
                                                          http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
                                                        • Carlton Winbery
                                                          ... I have been at the British Library when the facsimile was on display, clearly marked (as William Peterson said), and I have been there when the original
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                                                            >Kevin said:
                                                            >
                                                            >> I always assumed that the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus on
                                                            >display
                                                            >> in the British Museum were the "Real McCoy."
                                                            >
                                                            >I agree. By the way, it's the British Library. The new Library is some
                                                            >distance form the Museum. The exhibit area is much nicer and visibility of
                                                            >the manuscript is superior.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >Harold P. Scanlin
                                                            >United Bible Societies
                                                            >1865 Broadway
                                                            >New York, NY 10023
                                                            >scanlin@...

                                                            I have been at the British Library when the facsimile was on display,
                                                            clearly marked (as William Peterson said), and I have been there when the
                                                            original was on display. I have been privileged also (with a letter from
                                                            John Morgan-Wynn, then dean of Regents Park at Oxford) to examine Aleph and
                                                            A in the manuscript room first hand. Also the little scrap of Revelation
                                                            called P18. It is sealed between two pieces of glass.

                                                            They have very strict rules which you must read after being seated at the
                                                            table where you will examine the mss. One is you must never turn a page or
                                                            handle the ms with a pencil in your hand. You are only allowed to have a
                                                            lead pencil with you at the table, no ink or ink pens. I am not sure if you
                                                            could take a computer in with you, certainly no photo equipment, but you
                                                            can order photos of some of the pages.


                                                            Dr. Carlton L. Winbery
                                                            Foggleman Professor of Religion
                                                            Louisiana College
                                                            winbery@...
                                                            winbery@...
                                                            Ph. 1 318 448 6103 hm
                                                            Ph. 1 318 487 7241 off
                                                          • rlmullen@netpath.net
                                                            Richard Rolle of Hampole, THE PSALTER OR PSALMS OF DAVID, ed. by H. R. Bramley, (Oxford: Clarendon, 1884).
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Dec 2, 1999
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                                                              Richard Rolle of Hampole, THE PSALTER OR PSALMS OF DAVID, ed. by H. R.
                                                              Bramley, (Oxford: Clarendon, 1884).

                                                              At 04:25 PM 12/2/99 +0000, you wrote:
                                                              >Does anyone have information on an English Bible translation of
                                                              >the Psalms made about 1330 by William of Shoreham and/or
                                                              >Richard Rolle?
                                                              >
                                                              >Ron Minton
                                                              >
                                                            • Prof. Glen L. Thompson
                                                              ... - Bill Combs This is absolutely true, and holds for most of the libraries in Europe with manuscript collections. In August I spent several days at the
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Dec 3, 1999
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                                                                >I have heard that if you make arrangements ahead of time, and if >you have
                                                                >credentials from a theological school (etc.) you can view things not
                                                                >available to the regular public. Any truth to this?
                                                                ->Bill Combs

                                                                This is absolutely true, and holds for most of the libraries in Europe
                                                                with manuscript collections. In August I spent several days at the
                                                                British Library examing mss. The staff was very helpful and
                                                                courteous in every way.

                                                                However, if you want to see a really valuable mss, such as one of
                                                                the great uncials, you had better get permission in advance, and
                                                                that will mean getting some very well-known experts in the field to
                                                                verify your need to see the mss. and your qualifications to do so.
                                                                They will not allow the curious to touch such priceless treasures,
                                                                but will rather put the facsimiles or microfilms of them at such a
                                                                person's disposal.
                                                                Glen Thompson
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