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Re: tc-list Uncial or Uncial?

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  • Professor L.W. Hurtado
    In response to D. Edwards query: I can t speak to Mack s book, Who Wrote the NT?, except to note that neither textual criticism nor palaeography is a topic on
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 6, 1999
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      In response to D. Edwards' query:
      I can't speak to Mack's book, Who Wrote the NT?, except to note
      that neither textual criticism nor palaeography is a topic on which
      he has established research credentials. It looks, however, like
      either Mack has given a confused account of Thiede's views, or you
      have mis-remembered Mack!
      1) "Uncial" is a term properly pertaining to a style of Latin writing.
      But NT text critics have persisted in using it, though "majuscule"
      would be the proper term to use, in contrast to the later ascendant
      "minuscule" or "cursive" handwriting of Greek mss from the late 8th
      cent CE. Majuscule/uncial writing was characteristic all through
      the earliest Christian centuries, and no shift away from this writing
      style was made in the 2nd cent.
      2) Thiede's case has to do with the particular shape of particular
      Greek letters. It's not a matter of "uncial" but of the particular
      shape of particular "uncial" letters, which, he argues, indicates a
      dating in the lst cent. He has been shown to be methodologically
      inept in this argument by competent palaeographers in the relevant
      scholarly journals.
      (For an introduction to Greek mss and palaeography, see B. M.
      Metzger, _Manuscripts of the Greek Bible_ (Oxford Univ. press,
      1981).
      Larry Hurtado
      L. W. Hurtado
      University of Edinburgh,
      New College
      Mound Place
      Edinburgh, Scotland EH1 2LX
      Phone: 0131-650-8920
      Fax: 0131-650-6579
      E-mail: L.Hurtado@...
    • Jack Kilmon
      ... Although Uncial did come about as a calligraphic form of monumental Latin, isn t it true that the rounded angles of Greek majuscule were its inspiration?
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 6, 1999
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        "Professor L.W. Hurtado" wrote:

        > 1) "Uncial" is a term properly pertaining to a style of Latin writing.
        > But NT text critics have persisted in using it, though "majuscule"
        > would be the proper term to use, in contrast to the later ascendant
        > "minuscule" or "cursive" handwriting of Greek mss from the late 8th
        > cent CE. Majuscule/uncial writing was characteristic all through
        > the earliest Christian centuries, and no shift away from this writing
        > style was made in the 2nd cent.

        Although Uncial did come about as a calligraphic form of monumental
        Latin, isn't it true that the rounded angles of Greek majuscule
        were its inspiration? "Uncial" has been used as a term for
        book hand Greek by every scholar I can think of, including
        Metzger, as far back as the science goes in publications. I have
        even seen it applied to Coptic by Irigoin and Turner. If such is
        the case, isn't usage the determination of what is proper?

        I cannot find my copy right now, but what does Hatch say about
        this in his "Origin and Meaning of the term Uncial" in Classical
        Philology 30, 1935?


        > 2) Thiede's case has to do with the particular shape of particular
        > Greek letters. It's not a matter of "uncial" but of the particular
        > shape of particular "uncial" letters, which, he argues, indicates a
        > dating in the lst cent. He has been shown to be methodologically
        > inept in this argument by competent palaeographers in the relevant
        > scholarly journals.
        > (For an introduction to Greek mss and palaeography, see B. M.
        > Metzger, _Manuscripts of the Greek Bible_ (Oxford Univ. press,

        Dr. Metzger goes on to explain how the zierstil style continued
        into the 2nd and even the 3rd centuries. Surely Thiede knew
        this.

        Jack
        --
        ______________________________________________

        taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon

        Jack Kilmon
        jkilmon@...

        http://www.historian.net
      • Michael Holmes
        ... The (relatively recent) preference of many for majuscule likely reflects a point of view expressed by D.C. Parker: It has long been habitual to describe
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 6, 1999
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          At 08:08 AM 4/6/99 -0500, Jack Kilmon asked:
          > "Uncial" has been used as a term for
          >book hand Greek by every scholar I can think of, including
          >Metzger, as far back as the science goes in publications. I have
          >even seen it applied to Coptic by Irigoin and Turner. If such is
          >the case, isn't usage the determination of what is proper?

          The (relatively recent) preference of many for "majuscule" likely reflects a
          point of view expressed by D.C. Parker:

          "It has long been habitual to describe this class of MSS as uncials. The
          word's use has its origin in Mabillon's interpretation of Jerome's phrase
          about MSS written _uncialibus litteris_. Whatever the original meaning, a
          consensus has emerged that the name should be applied only to a particular
          kind of Latin majuscule. [he references: G. Cavallo and H. Maehler, _Greek
          Bookhands of the Early Byzantine Period A.D. 300-800_ (University of London
          Institute of Classical Studies Buletin Supplement 47; London:" Institute of
          Classical Studies, 1987).] The word _majuscule_ should be used to designate
          the class of Greek hands of which we write. It means "of fair size," as
          opposed to minuscule, "rather small." (D. C. Parker, "The Majuscule
          Manuscripts of the New Testament," in Ehrman and Holmes, _The Text of the NT
          in Contemporary Research_, 22).

          So "uncial" has gone from being a rather general term to a more precisely
          defined technical term, and is in the process of being replaced for general
          use by "majuscule."

          Mike Holmes
        • Jack Kilmon
          ... Parker s usage in Codex Bezae made me think that he was involved in this transition. Because of the common origin and calligraphic similarity between
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 6, 1999
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            Michael Holmes wrote:
            >
            > At 08:08 AM 4/6/99 -0500, Jack Kilmon asked:
            > > "Uncial" has been used as a term for
            > >book hand Greek by every scholar I can think of, including
            > >Metzger, as far back as the science goes in publications. I have
            > >even seen it applied to Coptic by Irigoin and Turner. If such is
            > >the case, isn't usage the determination of what is proper?
            >
            > The (relatively recent) preference of many for "majuscule" likely reflects a
            > point of view expressed by D.C. Parker:
            >
            > "It has long been habitual to describe this class of MSS as uncials. The
            > word's use has its origin in Mabillon's interpretation of Jerome's phrase
            > about MSS written _uncialibus litteris_. Whatever the original meaning, a
            > consensus has emerged that the name should be applied only to a particular
            > kind of Latin majuscule. [he references: G. Cavallo and H. Maehler, _Greek
            > Bookhands of the Early Byzantine Period A.D. 300-800_ (University of London
            > Institute of Classical Studies Buletin Supplement 47; London:" Institute of
            > Classical Studies, 1987).] The word _majuscule_ should be used to designate
            > the class of Greek hands of which we write. It means "of fair size," as
            > opposed to minuscule, "rather small." (D. C. Parker, "The Majuscule
            > Manuscripts of the New Testament," in Ehrman and Holmes, _The Text of the NT
            > in Contemporary Research_, 22).
            >
            > So "uncial" has gone from being a rather general term to a more precisely
            > defined technical term, and is in the process of being replaced for general
            > use by "majuscule."

            Parker's usage in "Codex Bezae" made me think that he was
            involved in this transition. Because of the common origin
            and calligraphic similarity between Greek and Latin hands,
            I have never seen a problem using "uncial" for either but
            if the majority of scholarship adopts this...hey, I'm
            flexible. :) Its going to take a long time though.

            Jack

            --
            ______________________________________________

            taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon

            Jack Kilmon
            jkilmon@...

            http://www.historian.net
          • D.R. Edwards
            In response to D. Edwards query: I can t speak to Mack s book, Who Wrote the NT?, except to note that neither textual criticism nor palaeography is a topic on
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 6, 1999
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              In response to D. Edwards' query:
              I can't speak to Mack's book, Who Wrote the NT?, except to note
              that neither textual criticism nor palaeography is a topic on which
              he has established research credentials. It looks, however, like
              either Mack has given a confused account of Thiede's views, or you
              have mis-remembered Mack!
              1) "Uncial" is a term properly pertaining to a style of Latin writing.
              But NT text critics have persisted in using it, though "majuscule"
              would be the proper term to use, in contrast to the later ascendant
              "minuscule" or "cursive" handwriting of Greek mss from the late 8th
              cent CE. Majuscule/uncial writing was characteristic all through
              the earliest Christian centuries, and no shift away from this writing
              style was made in the 2nd cent.
              2) Thiede's case has to do with the particular shape of particular
              Greek letters. It's not a matter of "uncial" but of the particular
              shape of particular "uncial" letters, which, he argues, indicates a
              dating in the lst cent. He has been shown to be methodologically
              inept in this argument by competent palaeographers in the relevant
              scholarly journals.
              (For an introduction to Greek mss and palaeography, see B. M.
              Metzger, _Manuscripts of the Greek Bible_ (Oxford Univ. press,
              1981).


              Thanks for the response. I double-checked the relevant passage in Mack's
              book, so it may be that the first option (confused account) is more likely
              than the second. Things are considerably clearer now.

              Your two numbered paragraphs are consistent with what I've been able to put
              together on the topic, which is why I found it hard to follow Mack's
              argument. From what I've been able to learn on the topic, rounding of
              certain uncial letters appears to have begun in the late 2d century,
              possibly in Alexandria, possibly as a result of increased use of parchment;
              one of the reasons for the dating of the fragments was that they appeared to
              exhibit a transition from the "blocked" letters to the "rounded" letters.

              In any event, thanks again. I'll move Metzger's book higher on my "wish
              list" and consider amateur hour to have ended.
            • Dave Washburn
              ... Speaking strictly from the POV of language, it really doesn t matter how the term originated. What is important is that all who are involved in the field
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 6, 1999
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                Jack wrote:
                > Michael Holmes wrote:
                > >
                > > At 08:08 AM 4/6/99 -0500, Jack Kilmon asked:
                > > > "Uncial" has been used as a term for
                > > >book hand Greek by every scholar I can think of, including
                > > >Metzger, as far back as the science goes in publications. I have
                > > >even seen it applied to Coptic by Irigoin and Turner. If such is
                > > >the case, isn't usage the determination of what is proper?
                > >
                > > The (relatively recent) preference of many for "majuscule" likely reflects a
                > > point of view expressed by D.C. Parker:
                > >
                > > "It has long been habitual to describe this class of MSS as uncials. The
                > > word's use has its origin in Mabillon's interpretation of Jerome's phrase
                > > about MSS written _uncialibus litteris_. Whatever the original meaning, a
                > > consensus has emerged that the name should be applied only to a particular
                > > kind of Latin majuscule. [he references: G. Cavallo and H. Maehler, _Greek
                > > Bookhands of the Early Byzantine Period A.D. 300-800_ (University of London
                > > Institute of Classical Studies Buletin Supplement 47; London:" Institute of
                > > Classical Studies, 1987).] The word _majuscule_ should be used to designate
                > > the class of Greek hands of which we write. It means "of fair size," as
                > > opposed to minuscule, "rather small." (D. C. Parker, "The Majuscule
                > > Manuscripts of the New Testament," in Ehrman and Holmes, _The Text of the NT
                > > in Contemporary Research_, 22).
                > >
                > > So "uncial" has gone from being a rather general term to a more precisely
                > > defined technical term, and is in the process of being replaced for general
                > > use by "majuscule."
                >
                > Parker's usage in "Codex Bezae" made me think that he was
                > involved in this transition. Because of the common origin
                > and calligraphic similarity between Greek and Latin hands,
                > I have never seen a problem using "uncial" for either but
                > if the majority of scholarship adopts this...hey, I'm
                > flexible. :) Its going to take a long time though.

                Speaking strictly from the POV of language, it really doesn't matter
                how the term originated. What is important is that all who are
                involved in the field understand how it's currently used. As
                someone else pointed out, "uncial" has been the standard term for
                a particular Greek style of writing for over 100 years, which
                suggests that the word has assumed that meaning WRT Greek
                mss. and has transcended its original Latin connotation. That's
                what words do, so I see no good reason to try and supplant it for
                the sake of its etymology.

                Dave Washburn
                http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
                A Bible that's falling apart means a life that isn't.
              • Thomas J. Kraus
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 6, 1999
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                  D.R. Edwards wrote:
                  > Thanks for the response. I double-checked the relevant passage in Mack's
                  > book, so it may be that the first option (confused account) is more likely
                  > than the second. Things are considerably clearer now.
                  >
                  > Your two numbered paragraphs are consistent with what I've been able to put
                  > together on the topic, which is why I found it hard to follow Mack's
                  > argument. From what I've been able to learn on the topic, rounding of
                  > certain uncial letters appears to have begun in the late 2d century,
                  > possibly in Alexandria, possibly as a result of increased use of parchment;
                  > one of the reasons for the dating of the fragments was that they appeared to
                  > exhibit a transition from the "blocked" letters to the "rounded" letters
                • Thomas J. Kraus
                  One more example demonstrating (my) stupidity (cut message). Sorry. Edward, I wouldn´t be that optimistic about secure dating on palaeographical grounds. Many
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 7, 1999
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                    One more example demonstrating (my) stupidity (cut message). Sorry.
                    Edward,
                    I wouldn´t be that optimistic about secure dating on palaeographical
                    grounds. Many hands almost resemble each other but nonetheless have
                    characteristics on their own. Not to forget that scribes might have
                    attempted at imitating a kind of archaic style, a style out of fashion in
                    their time, or they indeliberately wrote in a way which was still to come
                    into fashion during the next generations. The repayment of a loan,
                    P.Vindob.G 19811, for instance, carries three subscriptions spanning a
                    period of about four hundred years (different styles) if only palaeography
                    is taken as the decisive factor for dating. Luckily, a notary put down (in
                    a regular cursive hand) his remark and a date. Nonetheless, for literary
                    documents there are, in most cases, no other possibilities to judge from
                    the style of writing, compare that with other manuscripts, and then give a
                    hypothetical date. But: this remains hypothetical, and if a specific style
                    of writing falls out of fashion, does not mean that it will not appear
                    later on somewhere.
                    Apart from Metzger, I would recommend: F. G. Kenyon, The Palaeography of
                    Greek Papyri, London 1899; W. Schubart, Palaeographie. Erster Teil:
                    Griechische Palaeographie, Handbuch der Altertumswissenschaft I,4,1,
                    Munich 1925 (a classic); E.M. Thompson, A Handbook of Greek and Latin
                    Paleography, Chicago 1968; E.G. Turner, Greek Manuscripts of the Ancient
                    World, 2nd ed. London 1987, and above all: R. Seider, Palaeographie der
                    griechischen Papyri. 3 vols, Stuttgart 1967-1990.
                    P.S.: Dave Washburn mentioned: "... "uncial" has been the standard term
                    for a particular Greek style of writing for over 100 years". This is
                    misleading as long as you do not say which kind of uncial writing you mean
                    (uncial vs minuscule!). By the way, the original meaning of uncial and
                    majuscule definitely is of importance to judge and understand the way of
                    writing found in a manuscript in a proper way (see e.g. Turner, Greek
                    Manuscripts, 1-5).
                    Best wishes,
                    Thomas J. Kraus
                    Universitaet Regensburg
                    Kath.-theol. Fakultaet
                    Universitaetsstr. 31
                    D-93053 Regensburg

                    Tel. + 49 941 943 36 90
                    Fax. + 49 941 943 19 86
                    thomas-juergen.kraus@...-regensburg.de
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