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tc-list question concerning John 15:8

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  • Mike Logsdon
    List Members, Just wondering what the list experts consider in regards to John 15:8. Is the statement a two-fold statement that (1) By this My father was
    Message 1 of 2 , Mar 12, 1999
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      List Members,
      Just wondering what the list experts consider in regards to John 15:8. Is
      the statement a two-fold statement that (1) By this My father was glorified
      that you might bear much fruit and you might become my disciples OR two
      separate realities that build upon each other in the hina clause (2) that
      you might bear much fruit and [thus, then??] will become my disciples? I
      have done some preliminary work on this variant and it seems that the
      hardest reading is the future indicative which might also explain the
      origin of the other. On the other hand, the most natural reading seems to
      be the aorist matching the tense of the first verb in the hina clause. Most
      translations favor reading two but the UBS has moved in favor of the first
      from the 3d edition to the 4th edition. What I would like to hear from
      someone who can do a search in the Greek text of the hina clauses is the
      number of cases where John's hina clauses differ when there are more than
      one verb tense associated after a hina. OR is it common for the two verbs
      to differ and therefore have the second verb introduce another thought
      building upon the hina. Any other comments or thoughts would be appreciated
      as well.

      Thanks
      Mike Logsdon
      Southwestern Theological Seminary
    • Carlton Winbery
      Mike Logsdon wrote; ... Mike,verses 7 & 8 are closely tied together both in meaning and in textual history. First the text. In the N-A27 you can note that in
      Message 2 of 2 , Mar 13, 1999
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        Mike Logsdon wrote;
        >List Members,
        >Just wondering what the list experts consider in regards to John 15:8. Is
        >the statement a two-fold statement that (1) By this My father was glorified
        >that you might bear much fruit and you might become my disciples OR two
        >separate realities that build upon each other in the hina clause (2) that
        >you might bear much fruit and [thus, then??] will become my disciples? I
        >have done some preliminary work on this variant and it seems that the
        >hardest reading is the future indicative which might also explain the
        >origin of the other. On the other hand, the most natural reading seems to
        >be the aorist matching the tense of the first verb in the hina clause. Most
        >translations favor reading two but the UBS has moved in favor of the first
        >from the 3d edition to the 4th edition. What I would like to hear from
        >someone who can do a search in the Greek text of the hina clauses is the
        >number of cases where John's hina clauses differ when there are more than
        >one verb tense associated after a hina. OR is it common for the two verbs
        >to differ and therefore have the second verb introduce another thought
        >building upon the hina. Any other comments or thoughts would be appreciated
        >as well.
        >
        Mike,verses 7 & 8 are closely tied together both in meaning and in textual
        history. First the text. In the N-A27 you can note that in verse 7 several
        of the witnesses (aleph, psi, 33, M) have the future AITHSESQE instead of
        the the aorist AITHSASQE. Interestingly the same witnesses have the future
        in verse 8, GENHSESQE instead of GENHSQE. Perhaps these witnesses saw a
        connection between "asking" in faith and "becoming" a disciple. In verse 8
        the N-A25 had the future in the text. However, there is not much difference
        in meaning between the aorist imperative and the future used as an
        imperative. I think scribes would have been more tempted to change aorist
        impv. to future. so that the UBS4 is probably correct in both 7 & 8.

        You say, >>On the other hand, the most natural reading seems to
        be the aorist matching the tense of the first verb in the hina clause.<<
        The first verb in the hINA clause in verse 8 is FERHTE, the present
        subjunctive. It is combined in the clause with the aorist imperative
        GENHSQE so in either case you have two different tenses in the hINA clause.

        I wonder if we should not emphasize the causal idea in verses 7 & 8. EN
        TOUTW could be "for this reason" referring back to verse 7 and the hINA
        clause could be a further elaboration on that causal relation "that you may
        go on bearing much fruit and be (more of a gnomic) disciples to me." This
        would link the primary reason for what God did in Christ as enabling
        disciples to bear fruit. I do think some of the scribes connected the
        variant reading for the future in verse 7 with the variant reading in the
        future in verse 8. In their mind this linked the "asking" with "becoming"
        disciples.

        Grace & peace,


        Carlton L. Winbery
        Fogleman Professor of Religion
        Louisiana College
        Pineville, LA 71359
        winberyc@...
        winbery@...
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