Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: tc-list Josephus Ant 18.3.3

Expand Messages
  • dd-1@juno.com
    Kevin W., Denny Diehl here ... happened ... From this quote (from Origen) it seems he is knowledgable of the Testimonium Flavianum. Do you agree?
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 10, 1999
    • 0 Attachment
      Kevin W., Denny Diehl here

      >The Church Father Origen (185-254 A.D.) states in his work _Against
      >Celsus 1:47_ that:

      >For in the 18th book of his Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus
      >bears witness to John as having been a Baptist, and as promising
      >purification to those who underwent the rite. Now this writer,
      >although not believing in Jesus as the Christ, in seeking after
      >the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple,
      >whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was
      >the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put to
      >death Christ, who was a prophet, says nevertheless ^� being, although
      >against his will, not far from the truth ^� that these disasters
      happened
      >to the Jews as a punishment for the death of James the Just, who was
      >a brother of Jesus (called Christ), ^�

      From this quote (from Origen) it seems he is knowledgable of the
      Testimonium Flavianum. Do you agree?
      ___________________________________________________________________
      You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
      Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
      or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
    • Kevin W. Woodruff
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 10, 1999
      • 0 Attachment
        Denny:

        I think at best it would be an argument from silence but Eusebius quotes the
        Testimonium Flavianum in his Ecclesiatical History.

        Kevin

        At 11:59 AM 2/10/99 -0600, you wrote:
        >Kevin W., Denny Diehl here
        >
        >>The Church Father Origen (185-254 A.D.) states in his work _Against
        >>Celsus 1:47_ that:
        >
        >>For in the 18th book of his Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus
        >>bears witness to John as having been a Baptist, and as promising
        >>purification to those who underwent the rite. Now this writer,
        >>although not believing in Jesus as the Christ, in seeking after
        >>the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple,
        >>whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was
        >>the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put to
        >>death Christ, who was a prophet, says nevertheless ^� being, although
        >>against his will, not far from the truth ^� that these disasters
        >happened
        >>to the Jews as a punishment for the death of James the Just, who was
        >>a brother of Jesus (called Christ), ^�
        >
        >From this quote (from Origen) it seems he is knowledgable of the
        >Testimonium Flavianum. Do you agree?
        >___________________________________________________________________
        >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
        >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
        >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
        >
        >

        Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
        Library Director/Reference Librarian
        Professor of New Testament Greek
        Cierpke Memorial Library
        Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
        1815 Union Ave.
        Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
        United States of America
        423/493-4252 (office)
        423/698-9447 (home)
        423/493-4497 (FAX)
        Cierpke@... (preferred)
        kwoodruf@... (alternate)
        http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
      • Kevin W. Woodruff
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 10, 1999
        • 0 Attachment
          Mark:

          I get:

          Forbidden

          You don't have permission to access /Judaicum/Josephus/02testi.htm on this
          server.

          Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an
          ErrorDocument to handle the request.

          when I try to access that URL

          Kevin

          At 04:59 PM 2/10/99 GMT, you wrote:
          >One more on-line address that I forgot to mention before -- the entry on the
          >Testimonium in the Josephus-Bibliographie at Muenster:
          >
          >http://www.uni-muenster.de/Judaicum/Josephus/02testi.htm
          >
          >Mark
          >--------------------------------------
          >Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
          > Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
          > University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866
          > Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdom
          >
          >Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
          >
          >

          Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
          Library Director/Reference Librarian
          Professor of New Testament Greek
          Cierpke Memorial Library
          Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
          1815 Union Ave.
          Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
          United States of America
          423/493-4252 (office)
          423/698-9447 (home)
          423/493-4497 (FAX)
          Cierpke@... (preferred)
          kwoodruf@... (alternate)
          http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
        • Kevin W. Woodruff
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 10, 1999
          • 0 Attachment
            the article is:

            Yamauchi, Edwin M
            Josephus and the scriptures
            Fides et Historia 13 No 1:42-63 Fall 1980

            The author compares Josephus' Antiquities with passages in
            Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Psalms, Daniel, Esther, and
            Ezra-Nehemiah. The comparisons reveal much that is tendentious
            and misleading in Josephus. On the other hand, Josephus
            provides valuable information on the Herodians and John the
            Baptist. The controversial passage about Jesus, the Testimonium
            Flavianum, was probably authentic though interpolated. Also
            discussed are the Slavonic Josephus, the Arabic Josephus, and
            Josephus' description of the Jewish-Roman War. Full references
            to the latest literature are included.

            At 09:47 AM 2/10/99 -0700, you wrote:
            >While I don't have the bib info handy, I believe Edwin Yamauchi did
            >some work on this passage back in the 80's as well and published
            >a number of articles on the subject. Periodical indexes should help
            >locate them.
            >
            >> Denny:
            >>
            >> A good discussion of this passage is in F. F. Bruce's _Jesus and Christian
            >> Origins Outside the New Testament._ Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974, pages 32-53
            >>
            >>
            >> At 05:23 PM 2/7/99 -0600, you wrote:
            >> >Denny Diehl here
            >> >
            >> >Perhaps this is not the right forum for this question.
            >> >If so, please forgive.
            >> >
            >> >Does anyone have a handle on Josephus in Ant 18.3.3
            >> >if there is textual evidence of it being an interpolation:
            >> >
            >> > "Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise
            >> > man, if it be lawful to call him a man ... He was
            >> > the Christ..."
            >> >___________________________________________________________________
            >> >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
            >> >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
            >> >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
            >> >
            >> >
            >>
            >> Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
            >> Library Director/Reference Librarian
            >> Professor of New Testament Greek
            >> Cierpke Memorial Library
            >> Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
            >> 1815 Union Ave.
            >> Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
            >> United States of America
            >> 423/493-4252 (office)
            >> 423/698-9447 (home)
            >> 423/493-4497 (FAX)
            >> Cierpke@... (preferred)
            >> kwoodruf@... (alternate)
            >> http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >Dave Washburn
            >http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
            >A Bible that's falling apart means a life that isn't.
            >
            >

            Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
            Library Director/Reference Librarian
            Professor of New Testament Greek
            Cierpke Memorial Library
            Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
            1815 Union Ave.
            Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
            United States of America
            423/493-4252 (office)
            423/698-9447 (home)
            423/493-4497 (FAX)
            Cierpke@... (preferred)
            kwoodruf@... (alternate)
            http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
          • Mark Goodacre
            ... I am not sure why, but perhaps it is because I gave the URL of the frame rather than the overarching URL. So try the following instead:
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 11, 1999
            • 0 Attachment
              On 10 Feb 99 at 17:23, Kevin W. Woodruff wrote:

              > I get:
              >
              > Forbidden
              >
              > You don't have permission to access /Judaicum/Josephus/02testi.htm on this
              > server.
              >
              > Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an
              > ErrorDocument to handle the request.
              >
              > when I try to access that URL

              I am not sure why, but perhaps it is because I gave the URL of the frame rather
              than the overarching URL. So try the following instead:

              http://www.uni-muenster.de/Judaicum/Welcome.html

              (Institutum Judaicum Delitzschianum on-line).

              Then go to "Bibliographie" and then to "Testimonium Flavianum".

              Mark
              --------------------------------------
              Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
              Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
              University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866
              Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdom

              Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.