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Re: tc-list 1 Jn 4:1-3 translations

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  • Kevin W. Woodruff
    Codices of manuscripts used by Erasmus for his first edition (1516) Most of these codices are at the University Library at the University of Basel, Switzerland
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 2, 1998
      Codices of manuscripts used by Erasmus for his first edition (1516)

      Most of these codices are at the University Library at the University of
      Basel, Switzerland

      Evan. 2
      15th century or earlier. According to Scrivener "is the the inferior
      manuscript chiefly used by Erasmus for his first edition of the N.T. (1516)."

      Act. Paul 2
      13th or 14th century according to Burgon. Erasmus grounded on this
      copy in some passages with some alterations of the manuscripts the text of
      his first edition

      Paul. 7
      date not known

      Evan.Act.Paul 1
      12th or 13th century according to Burgon

      Act.Paul 4
      15th century according to Scrivener, most likely 12th century
      Apoc. 1
      12th century according to Scrivener


      At 02:11 PM 11/2/98 -0600, you wrote:
      >On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, lakr wrote:
      >> 1Jo 4:3 TR
      >> KAI PAN PNEUMA O MH OMOLOGEI TON IHSOUN
      >> [ XRISTON EN SARKI ELHLUQOTA ]
      >> EK TOU QEOU OUK ESTIN KAI TOUTO ESTIN TO TOU ANTIXRISTOU O AKHKOATE
      >> OTI ERXETAI KAI NUN EN TW KOSMW ESTIN HDH
      >>
      >> 1Jo 4:3 W&H
      >> KAI PAN PNEUMA O MH OMOLOGEI TON IHSOUN
      >> EK TOU QEOU OUK ESTIN KAI TOUTO ESTIN TO TOU ANTIXRISTOU O AKHKOATE
      >> OTI ERXETAI KAI NUN EN TW KOSMW ESTIN HDH
      >>
      >> Notice that in the top example the words 'Christ in flesh came' are
      >> inserted into the Textus Receptus.
      >
      >Can someone check to see if the few mss. Erasmus used have the words or
      >did he use another source? They are in Aleph [kurion instead of christon]
      >which, of course, he did not have.
      >
      >Ron Minton
      >5379 North Farm Road 179
      >Springfield, MO 65803
      >(417)833-9581
      >
      >

      Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
      Library Director/Reference Librarian
      Cierpke Memorial Library
      Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
      1815 Union Ave.
      Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
      United States of America
      423/493-4252 (office)
      423/698-9447 (home)
      423/493-4497 (FAX)
      Cierpke@... (preferred)
      kwoodruf@... (alternate)
      http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
    • Julio Anjos
      Info on the book can be found on: http://westarinstitute.org/Books/Author/Savior/savior.html I have mine ordered sice August. More info on the find can be
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 3, 1998
        Info on the book can be found on:
        http://westarinstitute.org/Books/Author/Savior/savior.html
        I have mine ordered sice August.

        More info on the find can be found in:
        http://scholar.cc.emory.edu/scripts/jv/rsn_may_gosp.html
        But in short the facts are:

        Designated the Berlin Manuscript P. 22220, the manuscript is comprised of
        approximately thirty fragments, which are the remains of at least eighteen
        parchment leaves. The fragments range in size from a few centimeters square
        to at least one complete, though damaged, sheet comprising two leaves. One
        or two fragments show evidence of having been burned. Hedrick and Mirecki
        estimate on codicological grounds that the fragments come from leaves 97114
        of the original codex.
        ...
        Written in Coptic, the document is probably a translation of an original
        Greek text. Hedrick describes the Coptic as a rather pure example of the
        Sahidic dialect, with only one possible Achmimic variant extant.
        ....
        . The Lord is portrayed as speaking with his apostles, and the names
        James, John, and Andrew are extant.


        As far as I know there are new sayings strong in gnostic imagery, and new
        versions like:
        Whoever is near me is near the fire; whoever is far from me is far from
        life. A slightly different version of the same saying is attested in the
        Gospel of Thomas, logion 82: Whoever is near me is near the fire; whoever
        is far from me is far from the kingdom.


        The info on the Westar Fall 1998 Meeting where the first presentation was to
        be made was removed once the meeting was held, but it stated very clearly
        both authours were to be there.

        Best regards.
        Julio
      • Yuri Kuchinsky
        ... Dear Bart, I have read your treatment now, and I agree with you on some points, while disagree on others. We agree that the opponents in 1Jn 4:1-3 are
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 3, 1998
          On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Bart Ehrman wrote:

          > I've dealt with the textual problem at length in my _Orthodox
          > Corruption of Scripture_ pp. 125-35, if you want to see the evidence,
          > arguments, and counterarguments. (I push strongly for _me homologei_
          > against _luei_).

          Dear Bart,

          I have read your treatment now, and I agree with you on some points, while
          disagree on others.

          We agree that the opponents in 1Jn 4:1-3 are docetists. But your treatment
          of this passage focuses primarily on _me homologei_ against _luei_
          problem. For all I can see you're right on this, but this does not really
          seem relevant to the issues I'm dealing with at this time.

          There are many interpretative problems with 1Jn. I've just read Anchor BD
          (1992) article on the Johannine epistles by Robert Kysar, and he admits
          that plenty is disputed as to authorship, context, and dating. According
          to him,

          "The dates of the documents can be fixed only approximately."

          He, himself, gives ca. 100, but other opinions are possible.

          Now, the question as to whether the opponents in 1Jn 4:1-3 are Marcionites
          is not directly relevant to my larger thesis, and depends on the dating. I
          think it is possible to date the epistles to mid-second century, and I
          prefer such later dating.

          My larger thesis is that there are two distinct sets of opponents
          discernable in 1Jn, and this has been argued by a number of commentators.
          You mention Smalley yourself. According to such a view, some opponents are
          Ebionites, and have low Christology. These are the opponents in 1Jn
          2:18-23. Others, in 1Jn 4:1-3, and in 2Jn, are docetists with high
          Christology.

          You don't like this sort of an interpretation, but I disagree on this. I'm
          just taking the most literal reading of these passages, and this is what
          the texts seem to say to me. I have a more detailed treatment of these
          matters that I posted to Synoptic-l in the last few days.

          http://www.egroups.com/list/synoptic-l/1253.html

          and

          http://www.egroups.com/list/synoptic-l/1259.html

          Johannine correspondence is only a part of my larger argument in these two
          long articles that deal mostly with Papias and Irenaeus.

          I see no real need to conflate the opponents in 1Jn 2:18-23, and in 1Jn
          4:1-3 like you tend to. But this question is very complex, since it
          involves the exact understanding of various Christologies. In spite of
          many apparent similarities between the two, I think there was a pretty
          clear distinction between the much earlier group of
          Ebionites/Adoptionists, and the rather later docetists, although this
          distinction is often neglected by scholars.

          On this, see M. Goulder, ST. PAUL VERSUS ST. PETER: A TALE OF TWO
          MISSIONS, Westminster/John Knox Press, 1995, p. 117. (Goulder uses the
          term Possessionist to describe Adoptionists.) He points out that, while in
          mainstream academic literature "Adoptionists" are often conflated with
          "Docetists", according to him this is confusing, and he advocates defining
          these terms more precisely.

          It was the Adoptionists/Possessionists who resisted identifying Jesus with
          Christ, just like the opponents in 1Jn 2:22.

          Now, the question that I posted to tc-list originally only focused on the
          reading of 4:3a, which, in itself, is a rather narrow problem that does
          not need to involve larger issues, since the interpretation of 4:2 is
          already pretty clear.

          According to Kevin, the longer reading comes mostly from the Byzantine
          mss. Whether or not XRISTON EN SARKI ELHLUQOTA was added later, or was
          edited out later, still seems not too clear to me. In any case, the phrase
          just seems to fit the meaning of the passage rather well.

          Best wishes,

          Yuri.

          Yuri Kuchinsky || Toronto

          http://www.trends.net/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm
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