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tc-list scribal errors

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  • Prof. Ron Minton
    We have all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 2, 1998
      We have all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters
      will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare.
      Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true.

      Ron Minton
    • Kevin W. Woodruff
      Ron: The TR reading is also the reading of the majority of the Byzantine manuscripts ... Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div. Library Director/Reference Librarian Cierpke
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 2, 1998
        Ron:

        The TR reading is also the reading of the majority of the Byzantine manuscripts


        At 02:11 PM 11/2/98 -0600, you wrote:
        >On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, lakr wrote:
        >> 1Jo 4:3 TR
        >> KAI PAN PNEUMA O MH OMOLOGEI TON IHSOUN
        >> [ XRISTON EN SARKI ELHLUQOTA ]
        >> EK TOU QEOU OUK ESTIN KAI TOUTO ESTIN TO TOU ANTIXRISTOU O AKHKOATE
        >> OTI ERXETAI KAI NUN EN TW KOSMW ESTIN HDH
        >>
        >> 1Jo 4:3 W&H
        >> KAI PAN PNEUMA O MH OMOLOGEI TON IHSOUN
        >> EK TOU QEOU OUK ESTIN KAI TOUTO ESTIN TO TOU ANTIXRISTOU O AKHKOATE
        >> OTI ERXETAI KAI NUN EN TW KOSMW ESTIN HDH
        >>
        >> Notice that in the top example the words 'Christ in flesh came' are
        >> inserted into the Textus Receptus.
        >
        >Can someone check to see if the few mss. Erasmus used have the words or
        >did he use another source? They are in Aleph [kurion instead of christon]
        >which, of course, he did not have.
        >
        >Ron Minton
        >5379 North Farm Road 179
        >Springfield, MO 65803
        >(417)833-9581
        >
        >

        Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
        Library Director/Reference Librarian
        Cierpke Memorial Library
        Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
        1815 Union Ave.
        Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
        United States of America
        423/493-4252 (office)
        423/698-9447 (home)
        423/493-4497 (FAX)
        Cierpke@... (preferred)
        kwoodruf@... (alternate)
        http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
      • Robert B. Waltz
        ... While I heartily agree with the sentiment, I have to point out that this has not actually been tested. The key word is *eventually*. I won t go into the
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 2, 1998
          On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Prof. Ron Minton" <rminton@...> wrote:

          >We have all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters
          >will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare.
          >Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true.

          While I heartily agree with the sentiment, I have to point out that
          this has not actually been tested. The key word is *eventually*.

          I won't go into the math -- my calculator doesn't run that high --
          but the odds of the monkeys doing the job in any given period of
          time are extremely low. We'd need something like the lifetime of
          the universe to conduct the test.

          While we have our million monkeys, and more, we haven't had the time.

          Besides, the monkey are supposed to type *random* letters. The people
          driving the Internet don't type random letters. They type things they
          think are meaningful. Net result: They will probably *never* manage
          the complete works of Shakespeare. The average Internet user isn't
          nearly as smart as random chance. :-)
          -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

          Robert B. Waltz
          waltzmn@...

          Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism?
          Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn
          (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism)
        • Kevin W. Woodruff
          Codices of manuscripts used by Erasmus for his first edition (1516) Most of these codices are at the University Library at the University of Basel, Switzerland
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 2, 1998
            Codices of manuscripts used by Erasmus for his first edition (1516)

            Most of these codices are at the University Library at the University of
            Basel, Switzerland

            Evan. 2
            15th century or earlier. According to Scrivener "is the the inferior
            manuscript chiefly used by Erasmus for his first edition of the N.T. (1516)."

            Act. Paul 2
            13th or 14th century according to Burgon. Erasmus grounded on this
            copy in some passages with some alterations of the manuscripts the text of
            his first edition

            Paul. 7
            date not known

            Evan.Act.Paul 1
            12th or 13th century according to Burgon

            Act.Paul 4
            15th century according to Scrivener, most likely 12th century
            Apoc. 1
            12th century according to Scrivener


            At 02:11 PM 11/2/98 -0600, you wrote:
            >On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, lakr wrote:
            >> 1Jo 4:3 TR
            >> KAI PAN PNEUMA O MH OMOLOGEI TON IHSOUN
            >> [ XRISTON EN SARKI ELHLUQOTA ]
            >> EK TOU QEOU OUK ESTIN KAI TOUTO ESTIN TO TOU ANTIXRISTOU O AKHKOATE
            >> OTI ERXETAI KAI NUN EN TW KOSMW ESTIN HDH
            >>
            >> 1Jo 4:3 W&H
            >> KAI PAN PNEUMA O MH OMOLOGEI TON IHSOUN
            >> EK TOU QEOU OUK ESTIN KAI TOUTO ESTIN TO TOU ANTIXRISTOU O AKHKOATE
            >> OTI ERXETAI KAI NUN EN TW KOSMW ESTIN HDH
            >>
            >> Notice that in the top example the words 'Christ in flesh came' are
            >> inserted into the Textus Receptus.
            >
            >Can someone check to see if the few mss. Erasmus used have the words or
            >did he use another source? They are in Aleph [kurion instead of christon]
            >which, of course, he did not have.
            >
            >Ron Minton
            >5379 North Farm Road 179
            >Springfield, MO 65803
            >(417)833-9581
            >
            >

            Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
            Library Director/Reference Librarian
            Cierpke Memorial Library
            Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
            1815 Union Ave.
            Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
            United States of America
            423/493-4252 (office)
            423/698-9447 (home)
            423/493-4497 (FAX)
            Cierpke@... (preferred)
            kwoodruf@... (alternate)
            http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
          • Julio Anjos
            Info on the book can be found on: http://westarinstitute.org/Books/Author/Savior/savior.html I have mine ordered sice August. More info on the find can be
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 3, 1998
              Info on the book can be found on:
              http://westarinstitute.org/Books/Author/Savior/savior.html
              I have mine ordered sice August.

              More info on the find can be found in:
              http://scholar.cc.emory.edu/scripts/jv/rsn_may_gosp.html
              But in short the facts are:

              Designated the Berlin Manuscript P. 22220, the manuscript is comprised of
              approximately thirty fragments, which are the remains of at least eighteen
              parchment leaves. The fragments range in size from a few centimeters square
              to at least one complete, though damaged, sheet comprising two leaves. One
              or two fragments show evidence of having been burned. Hedrick and Mirecki
              estimate on codicological grounds that the fragments come from leaves 97114
              of the original codex.
              ...
              Written in Coptic, the document is probably a translation of an original
              Greek text. Hedrick describes the Coptic as a rather pure example of the
              Sahidic dialect, with only one possible Achmimic variant extant.
              ....
              . The Lord is portrayed as speaking with his apostles, and the names
              James, John, and Andrew are extant.


              As far as I know there are new sayings strong in gnostic imagery, and new
              versions like:
              Whoever is near me is near the fire; whoever is far from me is far from
              life. A slightly different version of the same saying is attested in the
              Gospel of Thomas, logion 82: Whoever is near me is near the fire; whoever
              is far from me is far from the kingdom.


              The info on the Westar Fall 1998 Meeting where the first presentation was to
              be made was removed once the meeting was held, but it stated very clearly
              both authours were to be there.

              Best regards.
              Julio
            • Yuri Kuchinsky
              ... Dear Bart, I have read your treatment now, and I agree with you on some points, while disagree on others. We agree that the opponents in 1Jn 4:1-3 are
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 3, 1998
                On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Bart Ehrman wrote:

                > I've dealt with the textual problem at length in my _Orthodox
                > Corruption of Scripture_ pp. 125-35, if you want to see the evidence,
                > arguments, and counterarguments. (I push strongly for _me homologei_
                > against _luei_).

                Dear Bart,

                I have read your treatment now, and I agree with you on some points, while
                disagree on others.

                We agree that the opponents in 1Jn 4:1-3 are docetists. But your treatment
                of this passage focuses primarily on _me homologei_ against _luei_
                problem. For all I can see you're right on this, but this does not really
                seem relevant to the issues I'm dealing with at this time.

                There are many interpretative problems with 1Jn. I've just read Anchor BD
                (1992) article on the Johannine epistles by Robert Kysar, and he admits
                that plenty is disputed as to authorship, context, and dating. According
                to him,

                "The dates of the documents can be fixed only approximately."

                He, himself, gives ca. 100, but other opinions are possible.

                Now, the question as to whether the opponents in 1Jn 4:1-3 are Marcionites
                is not directly relevant to my larger thesis, and depends on the dating. I
                think it is possible to date the epistles to mid-second century, and I
                prefer such later dating.

                My larger thesis is that there are two distinct sets of opponents
                discernable in 1Jn, and this has been argued by a number of commentators.
                You mention Smalley yourself. According to such a view, some opponents are
                Ebionites, and have low Christology. These are the opponents in 1Jn
                2:18-23. Others, in 1Jn 4:1-3, and in 2Jn, are docetists with high
                Christology.

                You don't like this sort of an interpretation, but I disagree on this. I'm
                just taking the most literal reading of these passages, and this is what
                the texts seem to say to me. I have a more detailed treatment of these
                matters that I posted to Synoptic-l in the last few days.

                http://www.egroups.com/list/synoptic-l/1253.html

                and

                http://www.egroups.com/list/synoptic-l/1259.html

                Johannine correspondence is only a part of my larger argument in these two
                long articles that deal mostly with Papias and Irenaeus.

                I see no real need to conflate the opponents in 1Jn 2:18-23, and in 1Jn
                4:1-3 like you tend to. But this question is very complex, since it
                involves the exact understanding of various Christologies. In spite of
                many apparent similarities between the two, I think there was a pretty
                clear distinction between the much earlier group of
                Ebionites/Adoptionists, and the rather later docetists, although this
                distinction is often neglected by scholars.

                On this, see M. Goulder, ST. PAUL VERSUS ST. PETER: A TALE OF TWO
                MISSIONS, Westminster/John Knox Press, 1995, p. 117. (Goulder uses the
                term Possessionist to describe Adoptionists.) He points out that, while in
                mainstream academic literature "Adoptionists" are often conflated with
                "Docetists", according to him this is confusing, and he advocates defining
                these terms more precisely.

                It was the Adoptionists/Possessionists who resisted identifying Jesus with
                Christ, just like the opponents in 1Jn 2:22.

                Now, the question that I posted to tc-list originally only focused on the
                reading of 4:3a, which, in itself, is a rather narrow problem that does
                not need to involve larger issues, since the interpretation of 4:2 is
                already pretty clear.

                According to Kevin, the longer reading comes mostly from the Byzantine
                mss. Whether or not XRISTON EN SARKI ELHLUQOTA was added later, or was
                edited out later, still seems not too clear to me. In any case, the phrase
                just seems to fit the meaning of the passage rather well.

                Best wishes,

                Yuri.

                Yuri Kuchinsky || Toronto

                http://www.trends.net/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm
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