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Re: tc-list clement of alexandria

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  • Julio Anjos
    ... From: Wieland Willker To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Cc:
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 7, 1998
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Wieland Willker <willker@...-bremen.de>
      To: tc-list@... <tc-list@...>
      Cc: willker@...-bremen.de <willker@...-bremen.de>
      Date: 07 August 1998 09:16
      Subject: Re: tc-list clement of alexandria
      >
      >My personal view is that our canonical Mark is an edited, shortened
      version.
      >One of M. Smith speculations was that sections mentioning Salome had been
      removed, because Salome played an important role in some sects.
      >
      >Best wishes
      > Wieland


      Funny you mentioned that. I have not read M. Smiths book but it seems then
      that

      "
      "Salomae interroganti, quousque vigebit mors," non quasi vita esset mala, et
      mala creatura, "Dominus, Quoadusque, inquit, vos mulieres paritis,"
      "
      (Salome asked "until when will death have power over us?" and the reply was
      "While youi women have children!" )

      As cited by clement on Chapter VI of Book III of the THE STROMATA might also
      be a part of Secret Mark?
    • Yuri Kuchinsky
      ... Not quite, Julio. As Wieland Willker already noted, the letter was inscribed into the copy of Epistulae genuinae S. Ignatii Martyris , 1646.
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 7, 1998
        On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Julio Anjos replied to Yuri:

        > More than that, where would he have found the previouslly unknown
        > Sofocle works in whose back the Clementine was copied? Wouldn't that
        > have to be forged as well?

        Not quite, Julio.

        As Wieland Willker already noted, the letter was inscribed into the copy
        of "Epistulae genuinae S. Ignatii Martyris", 1646.

        http://alf.zfn.uni-bremen.de/~wie/texte/secmark.html

        [Yuri:]
        > >And it also needs to be noted here that if Smith managed to "plant" this
        > >particular manuscript in any other library other than Mar Saba, the case
        > >for authenticiy would have been rather weaker. This is because there's a
        > >recorded tradition that a collection of Clement's letters _has been
        > >attested_ in Mar Saba during the Middle Ages. So such a discovery in Mar
        > >Saba was not totally unpredictable, after all...

        > I did not know that!

        Smith provides the particulars in his books.

        > But it seems to me that some thing need to be analysed
        > about this:
        >
        > a) The letters were beeing copied on the XVIII th century,

        We don't know this. We only know that one letter may have been copied.

        > so it seems very likelly they are still around ( the full Mar Saba
        > Collection of Clementines that is).

        I doubt it.

        > b) Morton Smith did not find such a collection!

        No.

        > c) Were they in purpose not presented to Dr. Smith? Does Mar Saba
        > Monastery still have them?
        >
        > d) Wouldn't it be interesting if a similar hand to the Clementine Letter
        > was to be found in other manuscripts on the Monastery ( private letters,
        > etc)

        We can only wish...

        > Do not forget that the existence of what became to be known as Codex
        > Sinaiticus was denied for years by the monks! that we had to wait for
        > this century for findidng many missing fragments of that codex on the
        > same monastery it was originally discovered in!

        ...

        > That point is : the level of akademia and Mr. Smith's own age at the
        > time of discovery, seem incompatible with him beeing the forgerer

        I agree with you.

        > if anyone really forged the Letter! If he was the forgerer he could
        > have made a full Secret Mark with all bells and whistles, not just an
        > handfull of verses!

        Best wishes,

        Yuri.

        Yuri Kuchinsky || Toronto

        http://www.trends.net/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm

        The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
        equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
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