Re: tc-list clement of alexandria
if you would like to read the letter itself:
You can find the original letter scanned from M. Smith books on my page at:
On top is the first page of the letter with the last page of the printed book: "Epistulae genuinae S. Ignatii Martyris", 1646
On bottom are all three pages of the letter for your reading pleasure.
The text inbetween is the German translation.
My personal view is that our canonical Mark is an edited, shortened version.
One of M. Smith speculations was that sections mentioning Salome had been removed, because Salome played an important role in some sects.
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- -----Original Message-----
From: Wieland Willker <willker@...-bremen.de>
To: tc-list@... <tc-list@...>
Cc: willker@...-bremen.de <willker@...-bremen.de>
Date: 07 August 1998 09:16
Subject: Re: tc-list clement of alexandria
>My personal view is that our canonical Mark is an edited, shortened
>One of M. Smith speculations was that sections mentioning Salome had beenremoved, because Salome played an important role in some sects.
>Funny you mentioned that. I have not read M. Smiths book but it seems then
"Salomae interroganti, quousque vigebit mors," non quasi vita esset mala, et
mala creatura, "Dominus, Quoadusque, inquit, vos mulieres paritis,"
(Salome asked "until when will death have power over us?" and the reply was
"While youi women have children!" )
As cited by clement on Chapter VI of Book III of the THE STROMATA might also
be a part of Secret Mark?
- On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Julio Anjos replied to Yuri:
> More than that, where would he have found the previouslly unknownNot quite, Julio.
> Sofocle works in whose back the Clementine was copied? Wouldn't that
> have to be forged as well?
As Wieland Willker already noted, the letter was inscribed into the copy
of "Epistulae genuinae S. Ignatii Martyris", 1646.
> >And it also needs to be noted here that if Smith managed to "plant" thisSmith provides the particulars in his books.
> >particular manuscript in any other library other than Mar Saba, the case
> >for authenticiy would have been rather weaker. This is because there's a
> >recorded tradition that a collection of Clement's letters _has been
> >attested_ in Mar Saba during the Middle Ages. So such a discovery in Mar
> >Saba was not totally unpredictable, after all...
> I did not know that!
> But it seems to me that some thing need to be analysedWe don't know this. We only know that one letter may have been copied.
> about this:
> a) The letters were beeing copied on the XVIII th century,
> so it seems very likelly they are still around ( the full Mar SabaI doubt it.
> Collection of Clementines that is).
> b) Morton Smith did not find such a collection!No.
> c) Were they in purpose not presented to Dr. Smith? Does Mar SabaWe can only wish...
> Monastery still have them?
> d) Wouldn't it be interesting if a similar hand to the Clementine Letter
> was to be found in other manuscripts on the Monastery ( private letters,
> Do not forget that the existence of what became to be known as Codex...
> Sinaiticus was denied for years by the monks! that we had to wait for
> this century for findidng many missing fragments of that codex on the
> same monastery it was originally discovered in!
> That point is : the level of akademia and Mr. Smith's own age at theI agree with you.
> time of discovery, seem incompatible with him beeing the forgerer
> if anyone really forged the Letter! If he was the forgerer he couldBest wishes,
> have made a full Secret Mark with all bells and whistles, not just an
> handfull of verses!
Yuri Kuchinsky || Toronto
The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian