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Re: tc-list clement of alexandria

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  • Wieland Willker
    Hello, if you would like to read the letter itself: You can find the original letter scanned from M. Smith books on my page at:
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 7, 1998
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      Hello,

      if you would like to read the letter itself:
      You can find the original letter scanned from M. Smith books on my page at:

      http://alf.zfn.uni-bremen.de/~wie/texte/secmark.html

      On top is the first page of the letter with the last page of the printed book: "Epistulae genuinae S. Ignatii Martyris", 1646
      On bottom are all three pages of the letter for your reading pleasure.
      The text inbetween is the German translation.

      My personal view is that our canonical Mark is an edited, shortened version.
      One of M. Smith speculations was that sections mentioning Salome had been removed, because Salome played an important role in some sects.

      Best wishes
      Wieland

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    • Julio Anjos
      ... From: Wieland Willker To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Cc:
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 7, 1998
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        -----Original Message-----
        From: Wieland Willker <willker@...-bremen.de>
        To: tc-list@... <tc-list@...>
        Cc: willker@...-bremen.de <willker@...-bremen.de>
        Date: 07 August 1998 09:16
        Subject: Re: tc-list clement of alexandria
        >
        >My personal view is that our canonical Mark is an edited, shortened
        version.
        >One of M. Smith speculations was that sections mentioning Salome had been
        removed, because Salome played an important role in some sects.
        >
        >Best wishes
        > Wieland


        Funny you mentioned that. I have not read M. Smiths book but it seems then
        that

        "
        "Salomae interroganti, quousque vigebit mors," non quasi vita esset mala, et
        mala creatura, "Dominus, Quoadusque, inquit, vos mulieres paritis,"
        "
        (Salome asked "until when will death have power over us?" and the reply was
        "While youi women have children!" )

        As cited by clement on Chapter VI of Book III of the THE STROMATA might also
        be a part of Secret Mark?
      • Yuri Kuchinsky
        ... Not quite, Julio. As Wieland Willker already noted, the letter was inscribed into the copy of Epistulae genuinae S. Ignatii Martyris , 1646.
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 7, 1998
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          On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Julio Anjos replied to Yuri:

          > More than that, where would he have found the previouslly unknown
          > Sofocle works in whose back the Clementine was copied? Wouldn't that
          > have to be forged as well?

          Not quite, Julio.

          As Wieland Willker already noted, the letter was inscribed into the copy
          of "Epistulae genuinae S. Ignatii Martyris", 1646.

          http://alf.zfn.uni-bremen.de/~wie/texte/secmark.html

          [Yuri:]
          > >And it also needs to be noted here that if Smith managed to "plant" this
          > >particular manuscript in any other library other than Mar Saba, the case
          > >for authenticiy would have been rather weaker. This is because there's a
          > >recorded tradition that a collection of Clement's letters _has been
          > >attested_ in Mar Saba during the Middle Ages. So such a discovery in Mar
          > >Saba was not totally unpredictable, after all...

          > I did not know that!

          Smith provides the particulars in his books.

          > But it seems to me that some thing need to be analysed
          > about this:
          >
          > a) The letters were beeing copied on the XVIII th century,

          We don't know this. We only know that one letter may have been copied.

          > so it seems very likelly they are still around ( the full Mar Saba
          > Collection of Clementines that is).

          I doubt it.

          > b) Morton Smith did not find such a collection!

          No.

          > c) Were they in purpose not presented to Dr. Smith? Does Mar Saba
          > Monastery still have them?
          >
          > d) Wouldn't it be interesting if a similar hand to the Clementine Letter
          > was to be found in other manuscripts on the Monastery ( private letters,
          > etc)

          We can only wish...

          > Do not forget that the existence of what became to be known as Codex
          > Sinaiticus was denied for years by the monks! that we had to wait for
          > this century for findidng many missing fragments of that codex on the
          > same monastery it was originally discovered in!

          ...

          > That point is : the level of akademia and Mr. Smith's own age at the
          > time of discovery, seem incompatible with him beeing the forgerer

          I agree with you.

          > if anyone really forged the Letter! If he was the forgerer he could
          > have made a full Secret Mark with all bells and whistles, not just an
          > handfull of verses!

          Best wishes,

          Yuri.

          Yuri Kuchinsky || Toronto

          http://www.trends.net/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm

          The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
          equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
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