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Re: tc-list Jude 5 IHSOUS versus KURIOS

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  • Carlton Winbery
    Larry Kuyper wrote; ... This is indeed an involved place of variation. The variation unit in N-A27 is PANTA . . . hAPAX. The only reading which has IHSOUS
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 27, 1998
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      Larry Kuyper wrote;

      >I was aware that there were differences in Jude with regard to verse 5,
      >but was very suprised to find that in my UBS3 it actually has
      >IHSOUS, while my NA27 does not. Is this one a close call ?
      >
      This is indeed an involved place of variation. The variation unit in N-A27
      is PANTA . . . hAPAX. The only reading which has IHSOUS instead of KURIOS
      is supported by Alexandrinus, Vaticanus, min 33, 81, 2344, and pc along
      with the vulgate. Now this is not bad evidence, esp. A in the Catholics.
      Most other witnesses has KURIOS (with or without the article). The reading
      with the M siglum (TR reading) has hAPAX at the beginning and TOUTO instead
      of PANTA. The reading of the N-A25 left out the article. The reading of
      N-A27 has rather weak external support and so I would suppose that the
      decision was made on internal grounds. Metzger explains the inclusion of
      IHSOUS as a scribal mistake (confusion of IC for KC). It is hard to
      imagine that another scribe would have left out IHSOUS even though its
      presence makes the sentence difficult to read.


      Carlton L. Winbery
      Fogleman Professor of Religion
      Louisiana College
      Pineville, LA 71359
      winberyc@...
      winbery@...
    • Robert B. Waltz
      ... Which UBS edition are you using? I checked my (uncorrected) UBS3, my UBS4, and my NA27; all three omit IHSOUS. It is worth noting that UBS3 and UBS4 both
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 27, 1998
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        On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, lakr@... (lakr) wrote:

        >Greetings TC'ers,
        >
        >I was aware that there were differences in Jude with regard to verse 5,
        >but was very suprised to find that in my UBS3 it actually has
        >IHSOUS, while my NA27 does not. Is this one a close call ?
        >
        >Thanks for considering this.

        Which UBS edition are you using? I checked my (uncorrected) UBS3,
        my UBS4, and my NA27; all three omit IHSOUS. It is worth noting that
        UBS3 and UBS4 both rate the decision a {D}. And, in fact, I agree
        with them. This is one of those relatively rare readings where
        even *I* don't see one obviously correct reading. I'd have to
        think about how I would analyse it. And, since we had a computer
        go down around here today and I'm trying to get things back to where
        it was before it went bad, I will have to wait until others have
        had their say. :-)

        -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

        Robert B. Waltz
        waltzmn@...

        Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism?
        Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn
        (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism)
      • lakr
        ... I have a GNT which has the UBS with an English version side by side (TEV?) that I picked up at a used book store. It s not with me at the moment, so I
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 27, 1998
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          >
          > On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, lakr@... (lakr) wrote:
          >
          > >Greetings TC'ers,
          > >
          > >I was aware that there were differences in Jude with regard to verse 5,
          > >but was very suprised to find that in my UBS3 it actually has
          > >IHSOUS, while my NA27 does not. Is this one a close call ?
          > >
          > >Thanks for considering this.
          >
          > Which UBS edition are you using?

          I have a GNT which has the UBS with an English version side by
          side (TEV?) that I picked up at a used book store. It's not with
          me at the moment, so I will try to remember to look and get back
          to you.

          Thanks,
          Larry Kruper
        • Robert B. Waltz
          ... It s only a guess, but I d guess that that edition uses UBS1 or UBS2 rather than UBS3. There were some significant textual changes from the second to the
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 27, 1998
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            On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, lakr@... (lakr) wrote:

            >> On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, lakr@... (lakr) wrote:
            >>
            >> >Greetings TC'ers,
            >> >
            >> >I was aware that there were differences in Jude with regard to verse 5,
            >> >but was very suprised to find that in my UBS3 it actually has
            >> >IHSOUS, while my NA27 does not. Is this one a close call ?
            >> >
            >> >Thanks for considering this.
            >>
            >> Which UBS edition are you using?
            >
            >I have a GNT which has the UBS with an English version side by
            >side (TEV?) that I picked up at a used book store. It's not with
            >me at the moment, so I will try to remember to look and get back
            >to you.

            It's only a guess, but I'd guess that that edition uses UBS1
            or UBS2 rather than UBS3. There were some significant textual
            changes from the second to the third edition. Unfortunately, I
            don't have a copy of UBS1/2 to check this against.

            Bob Waltz
            waltzmn@...

            "The one thing we learn from history --
            is that no one ever learns from history."
          • lakr
            ... My copy is from the ABS in 1966. The UBS is from 1966 and the TEV is from 1967. It gives no numeral for the UBS version. Perhaps that means it is #1.
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 29, 1998
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              >
              > On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, lakr@... (lakr) wrote:
              >
              > >> On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, lakr@... (lakr) wrote:
              > >>
              > >> >Greetings TC'ers,
              > >> >
              > >> >I was aware that there were differences in Jude with regard to verse 5,
              > >> >but was very suprised to find that in my UBS3 it actually has
              > >> >IHSOUS, while my NA27 does not. Is this one a close call ?
              > >> >
              > >> >Thanks for considering this.
              > >>
              > >> Which UBS edition are you using?
              > >
              > >I have a GNT which has the UBS with an English version side by
              > >side (TEV?) that I picked up at a used book store. It's not with
              > >me at the moment, so I will try to remember to look and get back
              > >to you.
              >
              > It's only a guess, but I'd guess that that edition uses UBS1
              > or UBS2 rather than UBS3. There were some significant textual
              > changes from the second to the third edition. Unfortunately, I
              > don't have a copy of UBS1/2 to check this against.
              >
              > Bob Waltz
              > waltzmn@...
              >
              > "The one thing we learn from history --
              > is that no one ever learns from history."
              >
              >

              My copy is from the ABS in 1966. The UBS is from 1966 and the TEV
              is from 1967. It gives no numeral for the UBS version. Perhaps
              that means it is #1.

              Larry Kruper
            • Robert B. Waltz
              ... That s the explanation, all right. The copyright dates in my UBS3 are 1966, 1968, 1975. So an edition published before 1968 must be using UBS1. Clearly
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 30, 1998
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                On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, lakr@... (lakr) wrote:

                >My copy is from the ABS in 1966. The UBS is from 1966 and the TEV
                >is from 1967. It gives no numeral for the UBS version. Perhaps
                >that means it is #1.

                That's the explanation, all right. The copyright dates in my
                UBS3 are 1966, 1968, 1975. So an edition published before 1968
                must be using UBS1. Clearly this is a reading that changed between
                the first and third editions.

                Obviously it was a close call for the committee. :-)

                Bob Waltz
                waltzmn@...

                "The one thing we learn from history --
                is that no one ever learns from history."
              • Carlton Winbery
                ... Keven, could you send me the bibliographic info from the title page of Vaticanus. I have some money and am thinking of purchasing a published facsimile if
                Message 7 of 16 , Aug 13, 1998
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                  >We have Kirsopp Lake's photographs of Vaticanus here. What passages do you
                  >need and please supply a fax number

                  Keven, could you send me the bibliographic info from the title page of
                  Vaticanus. I have some money and am thinking of purchasing a published
                  facsimile if possible. We have the Bodmer and Beatty Papyri and the
                  Sinaiticus in published form. We also have a number of minuscules on
                  microfilm. They are good for introducing majors to simple paliographical
                  features of TC.

                  Thanks,

                  Carlton
                • D.R. Edwards
                  My apologies in advance is this turns out to be a case of a lurker asking a laughably simple question. In any event, would anyone know how (assuming it s
                  Message 8 of 16 , Aug 13, 1998
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                    My apologies in advance is this turns out to be a case of a lurker asking a
                    laughably simple question. In any event, would anyone know how (assuming
                    it's possible) one would get photocopies of any portions of B (G of Mark, in
                    particular)? I've seen the occasional image posted on a web site or two,
                    but I've been unable to find anything further.

                    Thanks in advance.
                  • Kevin W. Woodruff
                    We have Kirsopp Lake s photographs of Vaticanus here. What passages do you need and please supply a fax number Kevin ... Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div. Library
                    Message 9 of 16 , Aug 13, 1998
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                      We have Kirsopp Lake's photographs of Vaticanus here. What passages do you
                      need and please supply a fax number

                      Kevin

                      At 09:43 AM 8/13/98 -0400, you wrote:
                      >My apologies in advance is this turns out to be a case of a lurker asking a
                      >laughably simple question. In any event, would anyone know how (assuming
                      >it's possible) one would get photocopies of any portions of B (G of Mark, in
                      >particular)? I've seen the occasional image posted on a web site or two,
                      >but I've been unable to find anything further.
                      >
                      >Thanks in advance.
                      >
                      >

                      Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
                      Library Director/Reference Librarian
                      Cierpke Memorial Library
                      Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
                      1815 Union Ave.
                      Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
                      United States of America
                      423/493-4252 (office)
                      423/698-9447 (home)
                      423/493-4497 (FAX)
                      Cierpke@... (preferred)
                      kwoodruf@... (alternate)
                      http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
                    • Dave Washburn
                      ... What would you charge to make a copy of the entire thing? Please contact me off-list... Dave Washburn http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur When in doubt, go for
                      Message 10 of 16 , Aug 13, 1998
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                        > We have Kirsopp Lake's photographs of Vaticanus here. What passages do you
                        > need and please supply a fax number

                        What would you charge to make a copy of the entire thing? Please
                        contact me off-list...
                        Dave Washburn
                        http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
                        When in doubt, go for chocolate. Life is too short
                        not to.
                      • Maurice Taraschi
                        ... you might also want to check with Hill Monastic Manuscript Library on the web at: http://www.csbsju.edu/hmml/
                        Message 11 of 16 , Aug 13, 1998
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                          D.R. Edwards wrote:

                          > My apologies in advance is this turns out to be a case of a lurker asking a
                          > laughably simple question. In any event, would anyone know how (assuming
                          > it's possible) one would get photocopies of any portions of B (G of Mark, in
                          > particular)? I've seen the occasional image posted on a web site or two,
                          > but I've been unable to find anything further.
                          >
                          > Thanks in advance.

                          you might also want to check with Hill Monastic Manuscript Library on the web
                          at:

                          http://www.csbsju.edu/hmml/
                        • Kevin W. Woodruff
                          Dr. Winbery: The info we have says: Bibliorum Sacrum Graecus Codex Vaticanus auspice Pio IX. Pontifice Maximo collatis studiis Caroli Vercellone Sodalis
                          Message 12 of 16 , Aug 13, 1998
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                            Dr. Winbery:

                            The info we have says:

                            Bibliorum Sacrum Graecus Codex Vaticanus auspice Pio IX. Pontifice Maximo
                            collatis studiis Caroli Vercellone Sodalis Barnabitae et Ioseph Cozza
                            Monachi Basiliani editus. Originally Published in 1868. Reproduced by Brown
                            and Thomas, Detroit Michigan, 1982.


                            At 01:50 PM 8/13/98 +0400, you wrote:
                            >>We have Kirsopp Lake's photographs of Vaticanus here. What passages do you
                            >>need and please supply a fax number
                            >
                            >Keven, could you send me the bibliographic info from the title page of
                            >Vaticanus. I have some money and am thinking of purchasing a published
                            >facsimile if possible. We have the Bodmer and Beatty Papyri and the
                            >Sinaiticus in published form. We also have a number of minuscules on
                            >microfilm. They are good for introducing majors to simple paliographical
                            >features of TC.
                            >
                            >Thanks,
                            >
                            >Carlton
                            >
                            >
                            >

                            Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
                            Library Director/Reference Librarian
                            Cierpke Memorial Library
                            Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
                            1815 Union Ave.
                            Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
                            United States of America
                            423/493-4252 (office)
                            423/698-9447 (home)
                            423/493-4497 (FAX)
                            Cierpke@... (preferred)
                            kwoodruf@... (alternate)
                            http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
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