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Re: tc-list Quote by Bruce Metzger

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  • Dierk Vandenberg
    ... Von: Jack Kilmon An: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Datum: Freitag, 15. Mai 1998 15:49
    Message 1 of 28 , May 15 9:23 AM
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      -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
      Von: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
      An: tc-list@... <tc-list@...>
      Datum: Freitag, 15. Mai 1998 15:49
      Betreff: Re: tc-list Quote by Bruce Metzger


      Jack wrote:


      >[... snip-snap ...]
      >If there was ever even a remote possibility that 7Q5 could have been part
      >of an "Ur-Markus" it will never get a thorough "going over" because of all
      >the nonsense.
      > [... ]
      >Jack

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      here comes 7Q5 for those who like to puzzle it out :

      (1) [ -- ].[ -- ]
      (2) [ -- ]. tô a.[ -- ]
      (3) [ -- ]ê kai tô[(?) -- ]
      (4) [ -- n]nês[ -- ]
      (5) [ -- ]têes[ -- ]

      that's all!

      Mk 6:52-53 possibly only in line (4) and (5) if a shorter text is assumed
      !!!

      Other possibilities are:
      Ex 36:10-11
      2Ki 5:13-14
      Zech 7:4-5 (!)

      Regards,
      Dierk

      ............................................................................
      ...
      "Where were you when the page was blank?"
      Truman Capote
      ............................................................................
      ...
    • PMoore4733
      Check out TEKTON s page at http://www.jude3.org/bookshelf/truth/tekton/Tekton_TOC.html They are withholding the article to check the references on Gregory
      Message 2 of 28 , May 12 7:46 AM
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        Check out TEKTON's page at
        http://www.jude3.org/bookshelf/truth/tekton/Tekton_TOC.html
        They are withholding the article to check the references on Gregory Neal's
        article "On 7Q5 and the Magdalen Papyri." This article gave several Metzger
        sources in reference to the Magdalen Papyrus. As I recall, some were yet to
        be published monographs, I assume which were given at SBL events.


        Paul
      • Carlton Winbery
        Steven Carr wrote, ... I just (7:16, 12/May/98) tried to access this page again and was told that it was still being with held in order to check the accuracy
        Message 3 of 28 , May 12 8:19 AM
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          Steven Carr wrote,

          >The article has now been restored to the Web page listed above.
          >Presumably, the author and the owner of the Web site are sure it is
          >genuine. It seems incredible to me that Professor Metzger would say such
          >things.

          I just (7:16, 12/May/98) tried to access this page again and was told that
          it was still being with held in order to check the accuracy of the quotes.
          I still wait to convinced that Metzger actually made the comments
          attributed to him.


          Carlton L. Winbery
          Fogleman Professor of Religion
          Louisiana College
          Pineville, LA 71359
          winberyc@...
          winbery@...
        • DC PARKER
          Message 4 of 28 , May 12 9:31 AM
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            > They are withholding the article to check the references on Gregory Neal's
            > article "On 7Q5 and the Magdalen Papyri." This article gave several Metzger
            > sources in reference to the Magdalen Papyrus. As I recall, some were yet to
            > be published monographs, I assume which were given at SBL events.
            >
            >
            That explains why my curiosity was baulked this morning when I tried
            to examine this strange production for myself.

            I hope that they correct 'Magulen' (sic) at the same time.

            DC PARKER
            DEPT OF THEOLOGY
            UNIVERSITY OF BIRMINGHAM
            TEL. 0121-414 3613
            FAX 0121-414 6866
            E-MAIL PARKERDC@...
          • Steven Carr
            In message , PMoore4733 writes ... The article has now been restored to the Web page listed above. Presumably,
            Message 5 of 28 , May 12 10:08 AM
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              In message <9178f954.355860c0@...>, PMoore4733 <PMoore4733@...>
              writes
              >Check out TEKTON's page at
              >http://www.jude3.org/bookshelf/truth/tekton/Tekton_TOC.html
              >They are withholding the article to check the references on Gregory Neal's
              >article "On 7Q5 and the Magdalen Papyri." This article gave several Metzger
              >sources in reference to the Magdalen Papyrus. As I recall, some were yet to
              >be published monographs, I assume which were given at SBL events.

              The article has now been restored to the Web page listed above.
              Presumably, the author and the owner of the Web site are sure it is
              genuine. It seems incredible to me that Professor Metzger would say such
              things.
            • PMoore4733
              Regarding the dating of the Magdalen Papyri and Dr. Metzger: The following is out of the Reverend Gregory Neal s Paper on TEKTON:
              Message 6 of 28 , May 12 12:00 PM
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                Regarding the dating of the Magdalen Papyri and Dr. Metzger: The following is
                out of the Reverend Gregory Neal's Paper on TEKTON:
                http://www.jude3.org/bookshelf/truth/tekton/Tekton_02_02_06.html
                (A page from the Christian Apologetics Bookshelf).

                "The writing style of Herculaneum is, to my eye, so near to identical
                to that of Ps 64 and 67 that I am now willing to accept that they should
                be dated 70 - 100 CE, with a median date of 85 CE"

                This passage comes out of the paragraph that has been in question on this site
                regarding Dr. Metzger. Neal cites the follow source:

                ("Metzger, "P64+67 and the Governmental letters of Herculaneum: A Critique
                of the 1996 Thiede Analysis." 1997 Monograph before SBL. pp. 38-39. )"

                The above appears on page 6 of Neal's document.
              • Yuri Kuchinsky
                Dear list members, I would like to correct an inaccuracy in my previous post. It was very helpfully pointed out to me in private email. On Mon, 11 May 1998,
                Message 7 of 28 , May 12 3:23 PM
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                  Dear list members,

                  I would like to correct an inaccuracy in my previous post. It was very
                  helpfully pointed out to me in private email.

                  On Mon, 11 May 1998, Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

                  ...

                  > According to Ehrman, the earliest such tradition can be found in Paul's
                  > letter to the Romans. And this tradition is clearly
                  > Resurrection-Adoptionist, i.e. it maintains that Jesus was adopted by
                  > God, His Father, at the moment of his Resurrection from the dead:
                  >
                  > [Christ Jesus ...] who came from the seed of David according
                  > to the flesh, who was appointed Son of God _in power_
                  > according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the
                  > dead. (Rom 1:3-4)
                  >
                  > According to Ehrman (p. 48), the words "in power", (underlined
                  > above) are a late addition;

                  So far, what I said in my essay was accurate. But next, there's a problem.

                  > this is just one of the many examples of
                  > the later "orthodox corruptions" of the original Pauline text, a
                  > corruption that was meant to lessen this text's Adoptionist
                  > implications.

                  Here's the problem.

                  According to what Ehrman actually writes in his book, while the expression
                  "in power = en dinamei" _is_ intrusive in what appears clearly like a
                  pre-Pauline credal formula (here he cites the works by Schlier, and Werner
                  Kramer), according to Ehrman, the words in question were added by Paul
                  himself. So he does not consider this as an "orthodox corruption" of the
                  original text. I'm sorry for the confusion.

                  Here's what Ehrman says in the footnote about the phrase being intrusive:

                  "That it [the phrase _en dinamei_] is intrusive in the creed itself is
                  shown by the fact that there is nothing in the first clause with which it
                  is parallel, unlike every other component of the second clause." (p. 100)

                  The rest of what I wrote about this passage is still accurate:

                  > Of course this addition merely lessens the Adoptionist
                  > meaning of this passage, and doesn't quite eliminate it completely.
                  >
                  > If we take this quite Adoptionistic statement of Rom 1:3-4 as
                  > originally written by Paul, and there's no reason we should doubt
                  > it, this would place this sort of a belief very early indeed.

                  I would like to add that the question of who added the phrase to the
                  pre-existent credal formula is on the whole rather marginal to the main
                  thesis of my essay. I think a case can be made that this phrase _was_ a
                  later orthodox corruption after all. But of course the words _en dinamei_
                  are generally considered as part of Pauline vocabulary, and Ehrman notes
                  this.

                  Best wishes,

                  Yuri.
                • Yuri Kuchinsky
                  ... Friends, In case someone is interested to see what kind of scholarship is really featured on this website, I would like to draw your attention to another
                  Message 8 of 28 , May 12 5:01 PM
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                    On Tue, 12 May 1998, PMoore4733 wrote:

                    > Regarding the dating of the Magdalen Papyri and Dr. Metzger: The
                    > following is out of the Reverend Gregory Neal's Paper on TEKTON:
                    > http://www.jude3.org/bookshelf/truth/tekton/Tekton_02_02_06.html (A page
                    > from the Christian Apologetics Bookshelf).

                    Friends,

                    In case someone is interested to see what kind of scholarship is really
                    featured on this website, I would like to draw your attention to another
                    highly problematic article there. This is an article by J.P. Holding, who
                    I think is the owner of this website. This article, and some obvious
                    doctoring of an important quote in it, has been the subject of some
                    discussion on Crosstalk-l recently. Here's part of a longer article I
                    posted to Crosstalk.

                    Re: an article in the JOURNAL OF HIGHER CRITICISM at:

                    http://daniel.drew.edu/~ddoughty/rp1cor15.html

                    And a reply by Holding at:

                    http://www.jude3.org/bookshelf/truth/tekton/Tekton_01_05_02.html

                    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
                    Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:22:50 -0400
                    From: y.kuchinsky@...
                    To: crosstalk@...
                    Subject: Re: Fallback Jesus

                    ...

                    And I found one actual case of blatant doctoring of a quote from Price.
                    Quite shameful.

                    Here're Price's actual words:

                    http://daniel.drew.edu/~ddoughty/rp1cor15.html

                    For this tradition there is no thought of any conversion of James from
                    unbeliever to believer. The resurrection appearance vouchsafed him is
                    simply of a piece with the others: an appearance granted to a
                    disciple. Indeed nowhere in the tradition of early Christianity do we
                    find the appearance

                    [WORDS OMITTED BY HOLDING: to James likened unto that of Paul: the
                    apprehension]

                    of an enemy of Christ to turn him into a friend. This
                    notion, which serves the agenda of modern apologists[47]47 seeking to
                    disarm the suspicions of those who point out that Jesus appeared only
                    to believers, is quite common among critical scholars as well.[48]48
                    Nonetheless, it is an exegetical phantom. Nowhere is this connection
                    made in the texts.

                    Note that Paul is mentioned in the full quote.

                    And here's the quotation as given by Holding:

                    For this tradition there is no thought of any conversion of James
                    from unbeliever to believer. The resurrection appearance vouchsafed
                    him is simply of a piece with the others: an appearance granted to
                    a disciple. Indeed nowhere in the tradition of early Christianity
                    do we find the appearance

                    [THE SMOKING GUN: Holding omitted a whole phrase here!]

                    of an enemy of Christ to turn him into a
                    friend. This notion, which serves the agenda of modern apologists
                    seeking to disarm the suspicions of those who point out that Jesus
                    appeared only to believers, is quite commong (sic) among critical
                    scholars as well. Nevertheless, it is an exegetical phantom.
                    Nowhere is this connection made in the texts.

                    And Holding continues:

                    "First, notice once again that Price is going against consensus, both
                    conservative and "critical" alike, without major evidence to overturn
                    the standard!

                    Second, re no tradition of turning an enemy of Christ into a friend,
                    appearing only to friends - have we forgotten the Apostle Paul here?"

                    [end quotes]

                    So here we can see Holding first doctoring an important quote (probably on
                    purpose) and THEN trying to make rhetorical capital on this basis.

                    Unethical. This is the only way to describe this.

                    Yuri.

                    ----------------------end quote-------------------

                    So it seems we shall soon see another article on Holding's website "closed
                    for renovations"?

                    Best wishes,

                    Yuri.
                  • Steven Carr
                    Carlton Winbery writes ... I had forgotten that the article was still on my Internet Service Provider s cache, which only gets
                    Message 9 of 28 , May 12 10:17 PM
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                      Carlton Winbery <winberyc@...> writes

                      >Steven Carr wrote,
                      >>The article has now been restored to the Web page listed above.
                      >>Presumably, the author and the owner of the Web site are sure it is
                      >>genuine.

                      >I just (7:16, 12/May/98) tried to access this page again and was told that
                      >it was still being with held in order to check the accuracy of the quotes.
                      >I still wait to convinced that Metzger actually made the comments
                      >attributed to him.

                      I had forgotten that the article was still on my Internet Service
                      Provider's cache, which only gets updated every couple of hours or so. I
                      was picking up an old version of the page.
                    • James R. Adair
                      I wrote to the SBL executive office to see if they were familiar with the article cited as: Metzger, P64+67 and the Governmental letters of Herculaneum: A
                      Message 10 of 28 , May 13 12:21 PM
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                        I wrote to the SBL executive office to see if they were familiar with the
                        article cited as: Metzger, "P64+67 and the Governmental letters of
                        Herculaneum: A Critique of the 1996 Thiede Analysis," 1997 Monograph
                        before SBL, pp 38-39. They were not aware of the article or of the book
                        which supposedly contains it, either in print or in production (and
                        Scholars Press, which publishes most SBL books, is not aware of any such
                        book either). If the quote is genuine, certainly the author of the Web
                        page should supply an accurate book title.

                        Jimmy Adair
                        Manager of Information Technology Services, Scholars Press
                        and
                        Managing Editor of TELA, the Scholars Press World Wide Web Site
                        -------------> http://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu <--------------
                      • Yuri Kuchinsky
                        Dear friends, I was wrong. It seems like Mr. Holding is innocent of the charges. I was too rash in my judgement, and I apologize for what I said. Mr. Holding
                        Message 11 of 28 , May 14 8:33 AM
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                          Dear friends,

                          I was wrong. It seems like Mr. Holding is innocent of the charges. I was
                          too rash in my judgement, and I apologize for what I said.

                          Mr. Holding was contacted, and he has very good defence against these
                          charges. Another, and earlier, version of Price's article exists on the
                          web:

                          http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/apocrypha.html

                          This was the version that Holding was using when composing his critique.
                          Later, Price changed the text of his article ever so slightly, obviously
                          to accomodate the criticism by Holding. Neither Price nor Holding did
                          anything unethical.

                          Again, my apologies,

                          Yuri.

                          On Tue, 12 May 1998, Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

                          > Re: an article in the JOURNAL OF HIGHER CRITICISM at:
                          >
                          > http://daniel.drew.edu/~ddoughty/rp1cor15.html
                          >
                          > And a reply by Holding at:
                          >
                          > http://www.jude3.org/bookshelf/truth/tekton/Tekton_01_05_02.html
                        • Michael Holmes
                          Colleagues, Regarding the quotations attributed to Bruce Metzger in an article by a Rev. Greg Neal on 7Q5 and the Magdalen papyri, which have been the subject
                          Message 12 of 28 , May 15 5:51 AM
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                            Colleagues,

                            Regarding the quotations attributed to Bruce Metzger in an article by a Rev.
                            Greg Neal on 7Q5 and the Magdalen papyri, which have been the subject of
                            much speculation lately on this list: the webmaster of the site where the
                            article was posted informs me that he confronted (via telephone) Neal, who
                            admits to fabricating the quotations--"totally and completely," as the
                            webmaster put it.

                            Mike Holmes
                          • Jack Kilmon
                            ... This is the kind of thing that really chaps my butt (is there Greek for that?) If there was ever even a remote possibility that 7Q5 could have been part
                            Message 13 of 28 , May 15 6:48 AM
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                              Michael Holmes wrote:

                              > Colleagues,
                              >
                              > Regarding the quotations attributed to Bruce Metzger in an article by a Rev.
                              > Greg Neal on 7Q5 and the Magdalen papyri, which have been the subject of
                              > much speculation lately on this list: the webmaster of the site where the
                              > article was posted informs me that he confronted (via telephone) Neal, who
                              > admits to fabricating the quotations--"totally and completely," as the
                              > webmaster put it.

                              This is the kind of thing that really "chaps my butt" (is there Greek for
                              that?)
                              If there was ever even a remote possibility that 7Q5 could have been part
                              of an "Ur-Markus" it will never get a thorough "going over" because of all
                              the nonsense. I would have been willing to listen to arguments about 7Q5
                              but it's pairing with the Magdalen Papyri as an "eyewitness" Matthew will
                              insure that any arguments, no matter how valid or otherwise, will not be
                              heard.

                              Jack
                            • Bruce Morrill
                              ... This reminds me of gratitude I don t express enough to Jimmy Adair and others who are trying to give us the advantages of the Web and electronic
                              Message 14 of 28 , May 16 11:31 AM
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                                On Fri, 15 May 1998, Michael Holmes wrote:
                                > Regarding the quotations attributed to Bruce Metzger in an article by a Rev.
                                > Greg Neal on 7Q5 and the Magdalen papyri, which have been the subject of
                                > much speculation lately on this list: the webmaster of the site where the
                                > article was posted informs me that he confronted (via telephone) Neal, who
                                > admits to fabricating the quotations--"totally and completely," as the
                                > webmaster put it.

                                This reminds me of gratitude I don't express enough to Jimmy Adair and
                                others who are trying to give us the advantages of the Web and electronic
                                publishing, while retaining the time-proven safeguards of peer review, etc
                                that Larry Hurtado has stressed to us.

                                Bruce Morrill bruce@...
                              • RE Elliott
                                In a message dated 98-05-15 08:51:33 EDT, Mike Holmes wrote:
                                Message 15 of 28 , May 17 10:06 PM
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                                  In a message dated 98-05-15 08:51:33 EDT, Mike Holmes wrote:

                                  << Colleagues,

                                  Regarding the quotations attributed to Bruce Metzger in an article by a Rev.
                                  Greg Neal on 7Q5 and the Magdalen papyri, which have been the subject of
                                  much speculation lately on this list: the webmaster of the site where the
                                  article was posted informs me that he confronted (via telephone) Neal, who
                                  admits to fabricating the quotations--"totally and completely," as the
                                  webmaster put it. >>

                                  The above quote, in addition to the inquiry that Jimmy adair made to SBL and
                                  the personal telephone conversation that I had with Dr. Metzger himself should
                                  put this string of speculative postings to an end.
                                  I thank God that we don't believe everything we hear. We do diligence to do
                                  the research necessary to find the truth. Now, let's get on with some textual
                                  study!
                                  Rich Elliott
                                • Yuri Kuchinsky
                                  Dear friends, This is a very stimulating work that deals with many much neglected subjects and source materials in the history of early Christianity: AUTHOR:
                                  Message 16 of 28 , May 19 8:42 AM
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                                    Dear friends,

                                    This is a very stimulating work that deals with many much
                                    neglected subjects and source materials in the history of early
                                    Christianity:

                                    AUTHOR: Franzmann, Majella, 1952-
                                    TITLE: Jesus in the Nag Hammadi writings
                                    PUBLISHED: Edinburgh : T & T Clark, 1996.
                                    DESCRIPTION: xxv, 293 p.
                                    NOTES: Includes bibliographical references (p. 215-246) and
                                    indexes.
                                    ISBN: 0567085260

                                    In her Chapter 1, Franzmann complains that, in spite of some rather
                                    unconvincing disclaimers, still far too few NT scholars are taking
                                    non-canonical materials seriously when dealing with early
                                    Christian literature, traditions, and beliefs. This is what has been
                                    described by some as "the tyranny of the canon" that is still very
                                    much with us.

                                    Franzmann writes that Helmut Koester has repeatedly called for a
                                    broadening of perspective to include more non-canonical
                                    materials,

                                    [Back in 1980] ... Koester calls attention once again to the
                                    problem of "deep-seated prejudices" reflected in the attitude
                                    of New Testament scholars towards the apocryphal writings
                                    [APOCRYPHAL AND CANONICAL GOSPELS, HTR 73
                                    (1980): 105-30, p. 130], yet scholars continue to ignore the
                                    exhortation. There is little or no reference to non-canonical
                                    material, for example, in recent work in Meier, Green and
                                    Turner, and Charlesworth (1988). In the latter case, only Gos.
                                    Thom. in the Nag Hammadi texts is seen as essential for the
                                    historical Jesus quest (83-90) [In the footnote she says that
                                    Meier's second volume of his THE MARGINAL JEW "contains
                                    more detailed argumentation against using Gos. Thom.", but
                                    still, she finds his approach unsatisfying.]. Fredriksen's study
                                    makes no mention at all of any non-canonical text, even in
                                    the final chapter, "Jesus of Nazareth in Christian Tradition"
                                    (205-15). (p. 4)

                                    While Charlesworth and Evans in their article dedicated to this
                                    matter (Charlesworth and Evans, JESUS IN AGRAPHA AND
                                    APOCRYPHAL GOSPELS, in Chilton and Evans, eds, STUDYING
                                    THE HISTORICAL JESUS, Brill, 1994)

                                    ...state that the agrapha and apocryphal gospels should be
                                    given "due consideration", Evans' later work [JESUS AND
                                    HIS CONTEMPORARIES, Brill, 1995, p. 17] is much more
                                    critical, suggesting that the only credible material for Jesus
                                    research "ultimately derives from the canonical Gospels
                                    themselves" (p. 5)

                                    Also, in the latter work, Craig A. Evans had authored some rather pointed
                                    polemics directed at what he describes as "influential coterie of
                                    American scholars", especially the "Jesus Seminar and its
                                    sympathisers" (26-40), i.e. at the scholars who are actually paying
                                    attention to these much-neglected sources.

                                    Franzmann notes that there are far too few scholars in N. America
                                    indeed, with few exceptions like James Robinson and Crossan,
                                    who are giving appropriate consideration to non-canonical
                                    materials.

                                    In particular, she also says this about recent surveys dealing with
                                    the gospel genre,

                                    With few exceptions within recent work devoted to gospel
                                    genre, scholars either fail to mention the apocrypha at all
                                    (e.g. Cantwell; Dahl; Dihle; and Thatcher), or make a footnote
                                    or two to Gos. Thom. (e.g. Stuhlmacher 1991b, 7), or they
                                    mention the apocrypha briefly only to dismiss them (e.g. Keck
                                    117; Kee 1977, 271; Stanton 1989, 125-35; and Sanders 64-5).
                                    ... One gains the impression from such studies that the
                                    apocryphal material need not be taken seriously when
                                    dealing with "gospel".

                                    A similar approach can be found in recent works whose titles
                                    appear to promise a breadth of scholarship. [Here she cites
                                    recent works by David Aune and Robert M. Grant, and finds them
                                    rather unsatisfying.] (p. 7)

                                    Further on, she quotes John G. Gager who suggested some 20
                                    years ago that, surprisingly enough, for too many scholars
                                    investigating the Historical Jesus, and pretending to historical
                                    objectivity,

                                    ...religious authority [of the NT writings] as sacred scripture
                                    has been extended to cover their historical authority as well"
                                    [Gager, THE GOSPELS AND JESUS: SOME DOUBTS
                                    ABOUT METHOD, Journal of Religion 54: p. 244-72] (p. 14)

                                    And such a methodological approach is hardly justified.

                                    Franzmann especially takes to task Robert M. Grant,

                                    A good example of the distortion which a misguided
                                    confessional stance can bring to the research enterprise is
                                    found in Grant's study of the Christ of the second century
                                    [Grant, JESUS AFTER THE GOSPELS: THE CHRIST OF
                                    THE SECOND CENTURY, 1990]. For Grant, christology is
                                    essentially to be derived from the canonical Gospels. ... One
                                    can only wonder in disbelief at the methodological
                                    perspective from which Grant can write:

                                    In spite of the exciting and valuable Gnostic documents
                                    recovered from Nag Hammadi in Egypt, the basic
                                    starting point for the study of the Gnostics has to lie in
                                    the earliest criticisms by Christians who wrote against
                                    heresies (41). (p. 21)

                                    The above survey of the situation in the field comes from Chapter 1 of
                                    Franzmann's book. The rest of her work is devoted to a detailed
                                    consideration of what insights about Jesus we can gain from Nag Hammadi
                                    writings. Some time later I will add more about what she says in the rest
                                    her book.

                                    It seems quite probable to me that the NH writings, besides containing a
                                    lot of later material dating perhaps to the 2nd and 3rd centuries, also
                                    preserve quite a bit of material that is rather early. Especially in the
                                    case of the Gospel of Thomas, most of the sayings definitely seem
                                    pre-canonical.

                                    By the way, I have found quite a bit of material in Franzmann's overview
                                    of NH texts that tends to support the view that the earliest post-Easter
                                    Christian faith was Adoptionist.

                                    Best regards,

                                    Yuri.

                                    Yuri Kuchinsky || Toronto

                                    http://www.trends.net/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm

                                    The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
                                    equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
                                  • Steven Carr
                                    Does the evidence of the Dead Sea Scrolls support the idea that the Masoretic Text of Jeremiah had been copied with meticulous care, and that the Masoretic
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Sep 29, 1998
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                                      Does the evidence of the Dead Sea Scrolls support the idea that the
                                      Masoretic Text of Jeremiah had been copied with meticulous care, and
                                      that the Masoretic Text was already established as authoritative?
                                    • Curt Niccum
                                      The answer is yes and no. 4QJer-a and -c present a text close to the MT. On the other hand, 4QJer-b and -d offer a Hebrew text akin to that underlying the LXX.
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Sep 29, 1998
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                                        The answer is yes and no. 4QJer-a and -c present a text close to the MT.
                                        On the other hand, 4QJer-b and -d offer a Hebrew text akin to that
                                        underlying the LXX. I am not sure what you mean by "authoritative." The
                                        idea of a single text being "authoritative" would be somewhat
                                        anachronistic in the period of the scrolls.

                                        Curt Niccum

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Steven Carr [SMTP:steven@...]
                                        Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 3:28 PM
                                        To: tc-list@...
                                        Subject: tc-list Jeremiah at Qumran

                                        Does the evidence of the Dead Sea Scrolls support the idea that
                                        the
                                        Masoretic Text of Jeremiah had been copied with meticulous care,
                                        and
                                        that the Masoretic Text was already established as
                                        authoritative?
                                      • Cook@AKAD.SUN.AC.ZA
                                        From: Curt Niccum To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: RE:
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Sep 29, 1998
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                                          From: Curt Niccum <curt.niccum@...>
                                          To: "'tc-list@...'"
                                          <tc-list@...>
                                          Subject: RE: tc-list Jeremiah at Qumran
                                          Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 16:12:34 -0500
                                          Reply-to: tc-list@...

                                          The answer is yes and no. 4QJer-a and -c present a text close to the MT.
                                          On the other hand, 4QJer-b and -d offer a Hebrew text akin to that
                                          underlying the LXX. I am not sure what you mean by "authoritative." The
                                          idea of a single text being "authoritative" would be somewhat
                                          anachronistic in the period of the scrolls.

                                          Curt Niccum

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Steven Carr [SMTP:steven@...]
                                          Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 3:28 PM
                                          To: tc-list@...
                                          Subject: tc-list Jeremiah at Qumran

                                          Does the evidence of the Dead Sea Scrolls support the idea that
                                          the
                                          Masoretic Text of Jeremiah had been copied with meticulous care,
                                          and
                                          that the Masoretic Text was already established as
                                          authoritative?


                                          You should read the publications by Herman-Josef Stipp on this topic.
                                          Das masoretische und alexandrinische Sondergut des Jeremiabuches.
                                          Textgeschichtlicher Rang, Eigenarten, Triebkräfte, OBO 136,
                                          Freiburg/Göttingen, 1994 and Jeremia im Parteienstreit, Anton Hain,
                                          Frankfurt am Main, 1992.

                                          Prof. Johann Cook
                                          Department of Ancient Near Eastern Studies
                                          University of Stellenbosch
                                          7600 Stellenbosch
                                          SOUTH AFRICA
                                          tel 22-21-8083207
                                          fax: 22-21-8083480
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