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Re: tc-list Job 4:11 LXX

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  • Glen Thompson
    One would have to do a TLG search to investigate the accuracy of the translation, but the English meaning of ant-lion is not a problem. The Random House
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 1, 1998
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      One would have to do a TLG search to investigate the accuracy of the
      translation, but the English meaning of ant-lion is not a problem.
      The Random House dictionary says:
      any of the several neuropterous insects of the family
      Myrmeleontidae, the larva of which digs a pit in sand, where it lies
      in wait for ants or other insects.

      I remember watching them at work in Zambia. You would notice a
      small conical hole in sandy soil, with perfectly smooth sides. When
      an ant would accidently nose over the edge, it would loose footing,
      struggle to keep from falling in further, but suddenly a
      projection would pop out of the bottom, grab the ant and pull it out
      of sight.

      It would appear to be a less than obvious alternate reading here.

      Glen L. Thompson
    • Burkenstock
      I asked my fellow Hellenists on the Koine Greek mailing list and they had two good answers. They are as follows: There is more about this in the revised
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 1, 1998
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        I asked my fellow Hellenists on the Koine Greek mailing list and they had
        two good answers. They are as follows:

        There is more about this in the revised supplement of LSJ. Cf. also LSJ
        s.v.
        MYRMHX II. It appears there that MYRMHX was used not only in the sense
        'ant' but
        also referring to a fabulous animal of India. LSJ refers to Herodotus
        3.102,
        Strabo 2.1.9 (gold-digging MYRMHKES), 16.4.15 (lions called MYRMHKES)
        etc. The
        Job passage was given a number of allegorical interpretations by
        Christian
        writers (Didymus Caecus, John Chrysostom, Photius; cf. TLG), but the
        translator
        of Job is likely to have had the same concept as Herodotus and Strabo in
        his
        mind.

        Best wishes

        Jerker Blomqvist, professor of Greek language and literature, Lund
        University

        AND this one...

        Howere, after recalling where I have read on this animal, I consulted
        _Physiologus_ (there
        are many versions and recensions, I consulted a critical edition of one
        Slavonic version, where
        comparison with Greek, Armenian and Ethiopian recensions is given). So,
        now
        I know well
        that MYRMHKOLEWN is an animal having the face part of body of his father
        lion, and another
        part from his mother ant. He perished (Job 4:9) because, having such
        parents, he was neither
        predatory nor herbivorous.

        NB. The stuff of _Physiologus_ may taken as going back to IVth century,
        but
        some or many
        motifs may be much more earlier. A Jewish-Christian background of this
        book
        was already
        noted. So, it can reflect the same tradition as Job LXX.

        So, it is important to know, was the MYRMHX of India herbivorous or not?

        Basil Lourie

        St.Petersburg Society for
        Byzantine and Slavic Studies

        So I hope that helps the discussion on the mysterious "ant-lion" of Job.

        See ya,
        Burke Gerstenschlager

        --
        "I will try to express myself in some mode of life or art as freely as I can and as wholly as I can, using for my defence the only arms I allow myself to use - silence, exile, and cunning.
        - Stephen Dedalus _A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man_
      • Maurice A. O'Sullivan
        ... There are three citations in Lampe [ 889a] for patristic use of MURMHKOLEWN including one from the commentary on Job 4:11 of Olympiodorus Alexandrinus.
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 1, 1998
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          At 11:10 28/03/98 -7000, you wrote:
          >I received the following question and have no idea what the answer
          >is. Does anyone have any insight as to why the translator apparently
          >coined this word? I haven't even been able to find it in LSJ.
          >
          >> Do you have an explanation as to why, in Job 4:11, the LXX has a
          >>marginal rendering of "ant-lion" for the Hebrew word for "lion"?
          >
          >All I can find out is that the word does indeed mean "ant-lion." The
          >question is, what's an "ant-lion" and why did LXX use that term here?

          There are three citations in Lampe [ 889a] for patristic use of
          MURMHKOLEWN
          including one from the commentary on Job 4:11 of Olympiodorus Alexandrinus.

          Also a ref. to Germanus I of Constantinople

          Regards,
          Maurice
        • alexander.mirkovic@vanderbilt.edu
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 2, 1998
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            Dear list:

            It is very hard to tell what kind of animal was MYRMHKOLEWN.
            This is how I proceed in similar cases. I hope it will be of some
            help.

            There are several compounds of this kind in Greek. For example,
            KAMHLOPARDALH means "giraffe" or STROYTHOKAMHLO means
            ostrich, or LEOPARDALH which is obviously leopard. (H KAMHLA is
            the camel, the adjective O PARDALOS means motley, mottled, spotted,
            pied, varicolored, TO STROYTHION is the sparrow). The most famous
            compound is probably HIPPOPOTAMOS - horse of the river.

            From here one can get the logic behind the compounds in Greek. The
            compound represents a species which has something from one and
            something from the other term in the compound.

            Most of these compounds represent "exotic" animals (of course what
            Greeks considered exotic), or animals that the Greeks rarely saw
            around in their homeland.

            What is MYRMHKOLEWN ant+ leon, however, I do not know.

            Best wishes!

            Alexander
          • Jack Kilmon
            ... An ant lion is a predatory insect that is indigenous to finr sandy areas. the larva scoops out a bowl shaped crater in the sand and buries itself just
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 2, 1998
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              alexander.mirkovic@... wrote:
              >
              > Dear list:
              >
              > It is very hard to tell what kind of animal was MYRMHKOLEWN.
              > This is how I proceed in similar cases. I hope it will be of some
              > help.
              >
              > There are several compounds of this kind in Greek. For example,
              > KAMHLOPARDALH means "giraffe" or STROYTHOKAMHLO means
              > ostrich, or LEOPARDALH which is obviously leopard. (H KAMHLA is
              > the camel, the adjective O PARDALOS means motley, mottled, spotted,
              > pied, varicolored, TO STROYTHION is the sparrow). The most famous
              > compound is probably HIPPOPOTAMOS - horse of the river.
              >
              > >From here one can get the logic behind the compounds in Greek. The
              > compound represents a species which has something from one and
              > something from the other term in the compound.
              >
              > Most of these compounds represent "exotic" animals (of course what
              > Greeks considered exotic), or animals that the Greeks rarely saw
              > around in their homeland.
              >
              > What is MYRMHKOLEWN ant+ leon, however, I do not know.

              An ant lion is a predatory insect that is indigenous to
              finr sandy areas. the larva 'scoops' out a bowl shaped crater in the
              sand and buries itself just below the surface at the bottom.
              When an ant, or other insect, falls in the crater, the ant lion
              emerges with it's huge mandibles and grabs the insect. The adult
              looks very much like a dragonfly. The family is Myrmeleontidae.

              Jack

              D’man dith laych idneh d’nishMA nishMA
              Jack Kilmon (jpman@...)


              http://scriptorium.accesscomm.net
            • Jonathan Dixon
              Koine Grek Mailing List? That sounds interesting, can you send details? In Christ, Jonathan ... can and as wholly as I can, using for my defence the only arms
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 2, 1998
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                Koine Grek Mailing List? That sounds interesting, can you send details?

                In Christ,
                Jonathan

                At 04:33 PM 4/1/98 -0600, you wrote:
                >I asked my fellow Hellenists on the Koine Greek mailing list and they had
                >two good answers. They are as follows:
                >
                >There is more about this in the revised supplement of LSJ. Cf. also LSJ
                >s.v.
                >MYRMHX II. It appears there that MYRMHX was used not only in the sense
                >'ant' but
                >also referring to a fabulous animal of India. LSJ refers to Herodotus
                >3.102,
                >Strabo 2.1.9 (gold-digging MYRMHKES), 16.4.15 (lions called MYRMHKES)
                >etc. The
                >Job passage was given a number of allegorical interpretations by
                >Christian
                >writers (Didymus Caecus, John Chrysostom, Photius; cf. TLG), but the
                >translator
                >of Job is likely to have had the same concept as Herodotus and Strabo in
                >his
                >mind.
                >
                >Best wishes
                >
                >Jerker Blomqvist, professor of Greek language and literature, Lund
                >University
                >
                >AND this one...
                >
                >Howere, after recalling where I have read on this animal, I consulted
                >_Physiologus_ (there
                >are many versions and recensions, I consulted a critical edition of one
                >Slavonic version, where
                >comparison with Greek, Armenian and Ethiopian recensions is given). So,
                >now
                >I know well
                >that MYRMHKOLEWN is an animal having the face part of body of his father
                >lion, and another
                >part from his mother ant. He perished (Job 4:9) because, having such
                >parents, he was neither
                >predatory nor herbivorous.
                >
                >NB. The stuff of _Physiologus_ may taken as going back to IVth century,
                >but
                >some or many
                >motifs may be much more earlier. A Jewish-Christian background of this
                >book
                >was already
                >noted. So, it can reflect the same tradition as Job LXX.
                >
                >So, it is important to know, was the MYRMHX of India herbivorous or not?
                >
                >Basil Lourie
                >
                >St.Petersburg Society for
                >Byzantine and Slavic Studies
                >
                >So I hope that helps the discussion on the mysterious "ant-lion" of Job.
                >
                >See ya,
                >Burke Gerstenschlager
                >
                >--
                >"I will try to express myself in some mode of life or art as freely as I
                can and as wholly as I can, using for my defence the only arms I allow
                myself to use - silence, exile, and cunning.
                > - Stephen Dedalus _A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man_
                >
                >
                >
                >
                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                If any man thinks that he knows anything, he knows not yet as he ought to
                know; but if any man loves God, the same is known by him." (1 Cor. 8:2-3)
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                Jonathan M. Dixon
                (Student, Atlantic Baptist University)

                c/o Atlantic Baptist University
                Box 6004 Moncton, NB, Canada
                E1C 9L7

                dylan-j@...
                jdixon@...

                My Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3342/
                My Online Bible Site: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/8373/
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