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Re: tc-list Job 4:11 LXX

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  • Glen Thompson
    One would have to do a TLG search to investigate the accuracy of the translation, but the English meaning of ant-lion is not a problem. The Random House
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 1, 1998
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      One would have to do a TLG search to investigate the accuracy of the
      translation, but the English meaning of ant-lion is not a problem.
      The Random House dictionary says:
      any of the several neuropterous insects of the family
      Myrmeleontidae, the larva of which digs a pit in sand, where it lies
      in wait for ants or other insects.

      I remember watching them at work in Zambia. You would notice a
      small conical hole in sandy soil, with perfectly smooth sides. When
      an ant would accidently nose over the edge, it would loose footing,
      struggle to keep from falling in further, but suddenly a
      projection would pop out of the bottom, grab the ant and pull it out
      of sight.

      It would appear to be a less than obvious alternate reading here.

      Glen L. Thompson
    • james r. covey
      ... a dragonfly-like insect. ... you ve got me. some sort of random textual corruption, i ll wager. james ... James R. Covey WWW Systems Developer Cochran
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 1, 1998
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        re missive of 31/03/98 04:10 AM signed -dwashbur@...- :

        >All I can find out is that the word does indeed mean "ant-lion." The
        >question is, what's an "ant-lion"

        a dragonfly-like insect.

        >and why did LXX use that term here?

        you've got me. some sort of random textual corruption, i'll wager.

        james

        -------------------------
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        WWW Systems Developer
        Cochran Interactive Inc.
        http://www.cochran.com
        direct ph. # 902.422.8915
        office fax # 902.425.8659
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      • Burkenstock
        I asked my fellow Hellenists on the Koine Greek mailing list and they had two good answers. They are as follows: There is more about this in the revised
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 1, 1998
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          I asked my fellow Hellenists on the Koine Greek mailing list and they had
          two good answers. They are as follows:

          There is more about this in the revised supplement of LSJ. Cf. also LSJ
          s.v.
          MYRMHX II. It appears there that MYRMHX was used not only in the sense
          'ant' but
          also referring to a fabulous animal of India. LSJ refers to Herodotus
          3.102,
          Strabo 2.1.9 (gold-digging MYRMHKES), 16.4.15 (lions called MYRMHKES)
          etc. The
          Job passage was given a number of allegorical interpretations by
          Christian
          writers (Didymus Caecus, John Chrysostom, Photius; cf. TLG), but the
          translator
          of Job is likely to have had the same concept as Herodotus and Strabo in
          his
          mind.

          Best wishes

          Jerker Blomqvist, professor of Greek language and literature, Lund
          University

          AND this one...

          Howere, after recalling where I have read on this animal, I consulted
          _Physiologus_ (there
          are many versions and recensions, I consulted a critical edition of one
          Slavonic version, where
          comparison with Greek, Armenian and Ethiopian recensions is given). So,
          now
          I know well
          that MYRMHKOLEWN is an animal having the face part of body of his father
          lion, and another
          part from his mother ant. He perished (Job 4:9) because, having such
          parents, he was neither
          predatory nor herbivorous.

          NB. The stuff of _Physiologus_ may taken as going back to IVth century,
          but
          some or many
          motifs may be much more earlier. A Jewish-Christian background of this
          book
          was already
          noted. So, it can reflect the same tradition as Job LXX.

          So, it is important to know, was the MYRMHX of India herbivorous or not?

          Basil Lourie

          St.Petersburg Society for
          Byzantine and Slavic Studies

          So I hope that helps the discussion on the mysterious "ant-lion" of Job.

          See ya,
          Burke Gerstenschlager

          --
          "I will try to express myself in some mode of life or art as freely as I can and as wholly as I can, using for my defence the only arms I allow myself to use - silence, exile, and cunning.
          - Stephen Dedalus _A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man_
        • Maurice A. O'Sullivan
          ... There are three citations in Lampe [ 889a] for patristic use of MURMHKOLEWN including one from the commentary on Job 4:11 of Olympiodorus Alexandrinus.
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 1, 1998
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            At 11:10 28/03/98 -7000, you wrote:
            >I received the following question and have no idea what the answer
            >is. Does anyone have any insight as to why the translator apparently
            >coined this word? I haven't even been able to find it in LSJ.
            >
            >> Do you have an explanation as to why, in Job 4:11, the LXX has a
            >>marginal rendering of "ant-lion" for the Hebrew word for "lion"?
            >
            >All I can find out is that the word does indeed mean "ant-lion." The
            >question is, what's an "ant-lion" and why did LXX use that term here?

            There are three citations in Lampe [ 889a] for patristic use of
            MURMHKOLEWN
            including one from the commentary on Job 4:11 of Olympiodorus Alexandrinus.

            Also a ref. to Germanus I of Constantinople

            Regards,
            Maurice
          • alexander.mirkovic@vanderbilt.edu
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 2, 1998
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              Dear list:

              It is very hard to tell what kind of animal was MYRMHKOLEWN.
              This is how I proceed in similar cases. I hope it will be of some
              help.

              There are several compounds of this kind in Greek. For example,
              KAMHLOPARDALH means "giraffe" or STROYTHOKAMHLO means
              ostrich, or LEOPARDALH which is obviously leopard. (H KAMHLA is
              the camel, the adjective O PARDALOS means motley, mottled, spotted,
              pied, varicolored, TO STROYTHION is the sparrow). The most famous
              compound is probably HIPPOPOTAMOS - horse of the river.

              From here one can get the logic behind the compounds in Greek. The
              compound represents a species which has something from one and
              something from the other term in the compound.

              Most of these compounds represent "exotic" animals (of course what
              Greeks considered exotic), or animals that the Greeks rarely saw
              around in their homeland.

              What is MYRMHKOLEWN ant+ leon, however, I do not know.

              Best wishes!

              Alexander
            • Jack Kilmon
              ... An ant lion is a predatory insect that is indigenous to finr sandy areas. the larva scoops out a bowl shaped crater in the sand and buries itself just
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 2, 1998
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                alexander.mirkovic@... wrote:
                >
                > Dear list:
                >
                > It is very hard to tell what kind of animal was MYRMHKOLEWN.
                > This is how I proceed in similar cases. I hope it will be of some
                > help.
                >
                > There are several compounds of this kind in Greek. For example,
                > KAMHLOPARDALH means "giraffe" or STROYTHOKAMHLO means
                > ostrich, or LEOPARDALH which is obviously leopard. (H KAMHLA is
                > the camel, the adjective O PARDALOS means motley, mottled, spotted,
                > pied, varicolored, TO STROYTHION is the sparrow). The most famous
                > compound is probably HIPPOPOTAMOS - horse of the river.
                >
                > >From here one can get the logic behind the compounds in Greek. The
                > compound represents a species which has something from one and
                > something from the other term in the compound.
                >
                > Most of these compounds represent "exotic" animals (of course what
                > Greeks considered exotic), or animals that the Greeks rarely saw
                > around in their homeland.
                >
                > What is MYRMHKOLEWN ant+ leon, however, I do not know.

                An ant lion is a predatory insect that is indigenous to
                finr sandy areas. the larva 'scoops' out a bowl shaped crater in the
                sand and buries itself just below the surface at the bottom.
                When an ant, or other insect, falls in the crater, the ant lion
                emerges with it's huge mandibles and grabs the insect. The adult
                looks very much like a dragonfly. The family is Myrmeleontidae.

                Jack

                D’man dith laych idneh d’nishMA nishMA
                Jack Kilmon (jpman@...)


                http://scriptorium.accesscomm.net
              • Jonathan Dixon
                Koine Grek Mailing List? That sounds interesting, can you send details? In Christ, Jonathan ... can and as wholly as I can, using for my defence the only arms
                Message 7 of 8 , Apr 2, 1998
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                  Koine Grek Mailing List? That sounds interesting, can you send details?

                  In Christ,
                  Jonathan

                  At 04:33 PM 4/1/98 -0600, you wrote:
                  >I asked my fellow Hellenists on the Koine Greek mailing list and they had
                  >two good answers. They are as follows:
                  >
                  >There is more about this in the revised supplement of LSJ. Cf. also LSJ
                  >s.v.
                  >MYRMHX II. It appears there that MYRMHX was used not only in the sense
                  >'ant' but
                  >also referring to a fabulous animal of India. LSJ refers to Herodotus
                  >3.102,
                  >Strabo 2.1.9 (gold-digging MYRMHKES), 16.4.15 (lions called MYRMHKES)
                  >etc. The
                  >Job passage was given a number of allegorical interpretations by
                  >Christian
                  >writers (Didymus Caecus, John Chrysostom, Photius; cf. TLG), but the
                  >translator
                  >of Job is likely to have had the same concept as Herodotus and Strabo in
                  >his
                  >mind.
                  >
                  >Best wishes
                  >
                  >Jerker Blomqvist, professor of Greek language and literature, Lund
                  >University
                  >
                  >AND this one...
                  >
                  >Howere, after recalling where I have read on this animal, I consulted
                  >_Physiologus_ (there
                  >are many versions and recensions, I consulted a critical edition of one
                  >Slavonic version, where
                  >comparison with Greek, Armenian and Ethiopian recensions is given). So,
                  >now
                  >I know well
                  >that MYRMHKOLEWN is an animal having the face part of body of his father
                  >lion, and another
                  >part from his mother ant. He perished (Job 4:9) because, having such
                  >parents, he was neither
                  >predatory nor herbivorous.
                  >
                  >NB. The stuff of _Physiologus_ may taken as going back to IVth century,
                  >but
                  >some or many
                  >motifs may be much more earlier. A Jewish-Christian background of this
                  >book
                  >was already
                  >noted. So, it can reflect the same tradition as Job LXX.
                  >
                  >So, it is important to know, was the MYRMHX of India herbivorous or not?
                  >
                  >Basil Lourie
                  >
                  >St.Petersburg Society for
                  >Byzantine and Slavic Studies
                  >
                  >So I hope that helps the discussion on the mysterious "ant-lion" of Job.
                  >
                  >See ya,
                  >Burke Gerstenschlager
                  >
                  >--
                  >"I will try to express myself in some mode of life or art as freely as I
                  can and as wholly as I can, using for my defence the only arms I allow
                  myself to use - silence, exile, and cunning.
                  > - Stephen Dedalus _A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man_
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  If any man thinks that he knows anything, he knows not yet as he ought to
                  know; but if any man loves God, the same is known by him." (1 Cor. 8:2-3)
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                  Jonathan M. Dixon
                  (Student, Atlantic Baptist University)

                  c/o Atlantic Baptist University
                  Box 6004 Moncton, NB, Canada
                  E1C 9L7

                  dylan-j@...
                  jdixon@...

                  My Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3342/
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