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tc-list Job 4:11 LXX

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  • dwashbur@nyx.net
    I received the following question and have no idea what the answer is. Does anyone have any insight as to why the translator apparently coined this word? I
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 31, 1998
      I received the following question and have no idea what the answer
      is. Does anyone have any insight as to why the translator apparently
      coined this word? I haven't even been able to find it in LSJ.

      > Do you have an explanation as to why, in Job 4:11, the LXX has a
      >marginal rendering of "ant-lion" for the Hebrew word for "lion"?

      All I can find out is that the word does indeed mean "ant-lion." The
      question is, what's an "ant-lion" and why did LXX use that term here?
      Thanks,
      Dave Washburn
      http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
      Scholarese, n. A dialect that consists entirely of
      multiverbal circumlocutions and polysyllabic verbiages.
    • Glen Thompson
      One would have to do a TLG search to investigate the accuracy of the translation, but the English meaning of ant-lion is not a problem. The Random House
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 1, 1998
        One would have to do a TLG search to investigate the accuracy of the
        translation, but the English meaning of ant-lion is not a problem.
        The Random House dictionary says:
        any of the several neuropterous insects of the family
        Myrmeleontidae, the larva of which digs a pit in sand, where it lies
        in wait for ants or other insects.

        I remember watching them at work in Zambia. You would notice a
        small conical hole in sandy soil, with perfectly smooth sides. When
        an ant would accidently nose over the edge, it would loose footing,
        struggle to keep from falling in further, but suddenly a
        projection would pop out of the bottom, grab the ant and pull it out
        of sight.

        It would appear to be a less than obvious alternate reading here.

        Glen L. Thompson
      • james r. covey
        ... a dragonfly-like insect. ... you ve got me. some sort of random textual corruption, i ll wager. james ... James R. Covey WWW Systems Developer Cochran
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 1, 1998
          re missive of 31/03/98 04:10 AM signed -dwashbur@...- :

          >All I can find out is that the word does indeed mean "ant-lion." The
          >question is, what's an "ant-lion"

          a dragonfly-like insect.

          >and why did LXX use that term here?

          you've got me. some sort of random textual corruption, i'll wager.

          james

          -------------------------
          James R. Covey
          WWW Systems Developer
          Cochran Interactive Inc.
          http://www.cochran.com
          direct ph. # 902.422.8915
          office fax # 902.425.8659
          jrcovey@...
        • Burkenstock
          I asked my fellow Hellenists on the Koine Greek mailing list and they had two good answers. They are as follows: There is more about this in the revised
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 1, 1998
            I asked my fellow Hellenists on the Koine Greek mailing list and they had
            two good answers. They are as follows:

            There is more about this in the revised supplement of LSJ. Cf. also LSJ
            s.v.
            MYRMHX II. It appears there that MYRMHX was used not only in the sense
            'ant' but
            also referring to a fabulous animal of India. LSJ refers to Herodotus
            3.102,
            Strabo 2.1.9 (gold-digging MYRMHKES), 16.4.15 (lions called MYRMHKES)
            etc. The
            Job passage was given a number of allegorical interpretations by
            Christian
            writers (Didymus Caecus, John Chrysostom, Photius; cf. TLG), but the
            translator
            of Job is likely to have had the same concept as Herodotus and Strabo in
            his
            mind.

            Best wishes

            Jerker Blomqvist, professor of Greek language and literature, Lund
            University

            AND this one...

            Howere, after recalling where I have read on this animal, I consulted
            _Physiologus_ (there
            are many versions and recensions, I consulted a critical edition of one
            Slavonic version, where
            comparison with Greek, Armenian and Ethiopian recensions is given). So,
            now
            I know well
            that MYRMHKOLEWN is an animal having the face part of body of his father
            lion, and another
            part from his mother ant. He perished (Job 4:9) because, having such
            parents, he was neither
            predatory nor herbivorous.

            NB. The stuff of _Physiologus_ may taken as going back to IVth century,
            but
            some or many
            motifs may be much more earlier. A Jewish-Christian background of this
            book
            was already
            noted. So, it can reflect the same tradition as Job LXX.

            So, it is important to know, was the MYRMHX of India herbivorous or not?

            Basil Lourie

            St.Petersburg Society for
            Byzantine and Slavic Studies

            So I hope that helps the discussion on the mysterious "ant-lion" of Job.

            See ya,
            Burke Gerstenschlager

            --
            "I will try to express myself in some mode of life or art as freely as I can and as wholly as I can, using for my defence the only arms I allow myself to use - silence, exile, and cunning.
            - Stephen Dedalus _A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man_
          • Maurice A. O'Sullivan
            ... There are three citations in Lampe [ 889a] for patristic use of MURMHKOLEWN including one from the commentary on Job 4:11 of Olympiodorus Alexandrinus.
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 1, 1998
              At 11:10 28/03/98 -7000, you wrote:
              >I received the following question and have no idea what the answer
              >is. Does anyone have any insight as to why the translator apparently
              >coined this word? I haven't even been able to find it in LSJ.
              >
              >> Do you have an explanation as to why, in Job 4:11, the LXX has a
              >>marginal rendering of "ant-lion" for the Hebrew word for "lion"?
              >
              >All I can find out is that the word does indeed mean "ant-lion." The
              >question is, what's an "ant-lion" and why did LXX use that term here?

              There are three citations in Lampe [ 889a] for patristic use of
              MURMHKOLEWN
              including one from the commentary on Job 4:11 of Olympiodorus Alexandrinus.

              Also a ref. to Germanus I of Constantinople

              Regards,
              Maurice
            • alexander.mirkovic@vanderbilt.edu
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 2, 1998
                Dear list:

                It is very hard to tell what kind of animal was MYRMHKOLEWN.
                This is how I proceed in similar cases. I hope it will be of some
                help.

                There are several compounds of this kind in Greek. For example,
                KAMHLOPARDALH means "giraffe" or STROYTHOKAMHLO means
                ostrich, or LEOPARDALH which is obviously leopard. (H KAMHLA is
                the camel, the adjective O PARDALOS means motley, mottled, spotted,
                pied, varicolored, TO STROYTHION is the sparrow). The most famous
                compound is probably HIPPOPOTAMOS - horse of the river.

                From here one can get the logic behind the compounds in Greek. The
                compound represents a species which has something from one and
                something from the other term in the compound.

                Most of these compounds represent "exotic" animals (of course what
                Greeks considered exotic), or animals that the Greeks rarely saw
                around in their homeland.

                What is MYRMHKOLEWN ant+ leon, however, I do not know.

                Best wishes!

                Alexander
              • Jack Kilmon
                ... An ant lion is a predatory insect that is indigenous to finr sandy areas. the larva scoops out a bowl shaped crater in the sand and buries itself just
                Message 7 of 8 , Apr 2, 1998
                  alexander.mirkovic@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear list:
                  >
                  > It is very hard to tell what kind of animal was MYRMHKOLEWN.
                  > This is how I proceed in similar cases. I hope it will be of some
                  > help.
                  >
                  > There are several compounds of this kind in Greek. For example,
                  > KAMHLOPARDALH means "giraffe" or STROYTHOKAMHLO means
                  > ostrich, or LEOPARDALH which is obviously leopard. (H KAMHLA is
                  > the camel, the adjective O PARDALOS means motley, mottled, spotted,
                  > pied, varicolored, TO STROYTHION is the sparrow). The most famous
                  > compound is probably HIPPOPOTAMOS - horse of the river.
                  >
                  > >From here one can get the logic behind the compounds in Greek. The
                  > compound represents a species which has something from one and
                  > something from the other term in the compound.
                  >
                  > Most of these compounds represent "exotic" animals (of course what
                  > Greeks considered exotic), or animals that the Greeks rarely saw
                  > around in their homeland.
                  >
                  > What is MYRMHKOLEWN ant+ leon, however, I do not know.

                  An ant lion is a predatory insect that is indigenous to
                  finr sandy areas. the larva 'scoops' out a bowl shaped crater in the
                  sand and buries itself just below the surface at the bottom.
                  When an ant, or other insect, falls in the crater, the ant lion
                  emerges with it's huge mandibles and grabs the insect. The adult
                  looks very much like a dragonfly. The family is Myrmeleontidae.

                  Jack

                  D’man dith laych idneh d’nishMA nishMA
                  Jack Kilmon (jpman@...)


                  http://scriptorium.accesscomm.net
                • Jonathan Dixon
                  Koine Grek Mailing List? That sounds interesting, can you send details? In Christ, Jonathan ... can and as wholly as I can, using for my defence the only arms
                  Message 8 of 8 , Apr 2, 1998
                    Koine Grek Mailing List? That sounds interesting, can you send details?

                    In Christ,
                    Jonathan

                    At 04:33 PM 4/1/98 -0600, you wrote:
                    >I asked my fellow Hellenists on the Koine Greek mailing list and they had
                    >two good answers. They are as follows:
                    >
                    >There is more about this in the revised supplement of LSJ. Cf. also LSJ
                    >s.v.
                    >MYRMHX II. It appears there that MYRMHX was used not only in the sense
                    >'ant' but
                    >also referring to a fabulous animal of India. LSJ refers to Herodotus
                    >3.102,
                    >Strabo 2.1.9 (gold-digging MYRMHKES), 16.4.15 (lions called MYRMHKES)
                    >etc. The
                    >Job passage was given a number of allegorical interpretations by
                    >Christian
                    >writers (Didymus Caecus, John Chrysostom, Photius; cf. TLG), but the
                    >translator
                    >of Job is likely to have had the same concept as Herodotus and Strabo in
                    >his
                    >mind.
                    >
                    >Best wishes
                    >
                    >Jerker Blomqvist, professor of Greek language and literature, Lund
                    >University
                    >
                    >AND this one...
                    >
                    >Howere, after recalling where I have read on this animal, I consulted
                    >_Physiologus_ (there
                    >are many versions and recensions, I consulted a critical edition of one
                    >Slavonic version, where
                    >comparison with Greek, Armenian and Ethiopian recensions is given). So,
                    >now
                    >I know well
                    >that MYRMHKOLEWN is an animal having the face part of body of his father
                    >lion, and another
                    >part from his mother ant. He perished (Job 4:9) because, having such
                    >parents, he was neither
                    >predatory nor herbivorous.
                    >
                    >NB. The stuff of _Physiologus_ may taken as going back to IVth century,
                    >but
                    >some or many
                    >motifs may be much more earlier. A Jewish-Christian background of this
                    >book
                    >was already
                    >noted. So, it can reflect the same tradition as Job LXX.
                    >
                    >So, it is important to know, was the MYRMHX of India herbivorous or not?
                    >
                    >Basil Lourie
                    >
                    >St.Petersburg Society for
                    >Byzantine and Slavic Studies
                    >
                    >So I hope that helps the discussion on the mysterious "ant-lion" of Job.
                    >
                    >See ya,
                    >Burke Gerstenschlager
                    >
                    >--
                    >"I will try to express myself in some mode of life or art as freely as I
                    can and as wholly as I can, using for my defence the only arms I allow
                    myself to use - silence, exile, and cunning.
                    > - Stephen Dedalus _A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man_
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    If any man thinks that he knows anything, he knows not yet as he ought to
                    know; but if any man loves God, the same is known by him." (1 Cor. 8:2-3)
                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Jonathan M. Dixon
                    (Student, Atlantic Baptist University)

                    c/o Atlantic Baptist University
                    Box 6004 Moncton, NB, Canada
                    E1C 9L7

                    dylan-j@...
                    jdixon@...

                    My Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3342/
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