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tc-list t-c C. P. Thiede

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  • Revcraigh@aol.com
    Sorry if this is old hash. Just wondering how Thiede s contention that some bits of papyrus containing a portion of Matthew s Gospel are to be dated from the
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 30, 1998
      Sorry if this is old hash.

      Just wondering how Thiede's contention that some bits of papyrus containing a
      portion of Matthew's Gospel are to be dated from the mid 1st Century?

      Also, are their any places on the Web where the pros and cons of this
      contention are discussed/debated?

      Thanks,
      Rev. Craig R. Harmon, pastor
      Lutheran Church of the Apostles
      5100 W. 115th Street
      Alsip, IL 60803
    • Jim West
      ... They are not. ... Dont know about that, but see Graham Stanton s Gospel Truth . He thoroughly debunks Thiede s theories. ... Best, Jim
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 30, 1998
        At 09:59 AM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
        >Sorry if this is old hash.
        >
        >Just wondering how Thiede's contention that some bits of papyrus containing a
        >portion of Matthew's Gospel are to be dated from the mid 1st Century?

        They are not.

        >
        >Also, are their any places on the Web where the pros and cons of this
        >contention are discussed/debated?
        >

        Dont know about that, but see Graham Stanton's "Gospel Truth". He
        thoroughly debunks Thiede's theories.

        >Thanks,
        >Rev. Craig R. Harmon, pastor

        Best,

        Jim

        ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
        Jim West, ThD
        Adjunct Professor of Bible
        Quartz Hill School of Theology

        jwest@...
      • Nichael Lynn Cramer
        ... I second all of Jim s message above. In addition, an good on-line source is Sigrid Petersen s message which was posted to the Ioudaios list:
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 30, 1998
          Jim West wrote:
          >>Just wondering how Thiede's contention that some bits of papyrus containing a
          >>portion of Matthew's Gospel are to be dated from the mid 1st Century?
          >They are not.

          >>Also, are their any places on the Web where the pros and cons of this
          >>contention are discussed/debated?
          >Dont know about that, but see Graham Stanton's "Gospel Truth". He
          >thoroughly debunks Thiede's theories.

          I second all of Jim's message above. In addition, an good on-line source
          is Sigrid Petersen's message which was posted to the Ioudaios list:

          http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~petersig/theide2.txt

          This, too, thoroughly rebutts Thiede's conjectures.

          Nichael
          nichael@... deep autumn my neighbor what does she do
          http://www.sover.net/~nichael/ --Basho
        • Jack Kilmon
          ... Thiede has gone way out on a limb in attributing the Magdalen Papyri to the 1st half of the 1st century. His arguments are tenuous to even a layman such
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 30, 1998
            Revcraigh@... wrote:
            >
            > Sorry if this is old hash.
            >
            > Just wondering how Thiede's contention that some bits of papyrus containing a
            > portion of Matthew's Gospel are to be dated from the mid 1st Century?
            >
            > Also, are their any places on the Web where the pros and cons of this
            > contention are discussed/debated?

            Thiede has gone way out on a limb in attributing the Magdalen
            Papyri to the 1st half of the 1st century. His arguments are tenuous to
            even
            a layman such as myself. The concensus of scholarly opinion on the
            palaegraphy
            of the fragments place them in the latter 2nd century. Thiede claims
            the use of
            uncials had died out by the mid first century (not really true) and must
            push
            both the use of the codex as well as Nomina Sacra well into the
            primitive church.

            Jack

            --
            D’man dith laych idneh d’nishMA nishMA
            Jack Kilmon (jpman@...)


            http://scriptorium.accesscomm.net
          • Matthew Johnson
            On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Nichael Lynn Cramer wrote: [snip] ... [snip] ... To which I reply: This is getting further and further off the topic of Textual Criticism.
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 2, 1998
              On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Nichael Lynn Cramer wrote:

              [snip]
              > >>Also, are their any places on the Web where the pros and cons of this
              > >>contention are discussed/debated?

              [snip]
              >
              > I second all of Jim's message above. In addition, an good on-line source
              > is Sigrid Petersen's message which was posted to the Ioudaios list:
              >
              > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~petersig/theide2.txt
              >
              > This, too, thoroughly rebutts Thiede's conjectures.
              >

              To which I reply:

              This is getting further and further off the topic of Textual Criticism.
              What is worse, I see that you did not even answer the question. Instead
              you expose your own ideological bias by your subtle replacement of the
              question with a different question.

              For the question was "do you know of an on-line source discussing the
              _pros and cons_? But you answered with a site that is not only already
              four years out-of-date, but is conspicuously purely against Thiede's
              claim. So this site has no claim to be an on-line source discussing the
              pros and cons.

              Thiede's claim certainly has its problems, but a site that so reeks of
              its own ideological and religious bias cannot have a serious claim to
              have "thoroughly debunked" it.

              If you want a thorough analysis of the ideological and religious bias of
              that site, contact me off the list, since this is straying too far from
              the purpose of this list.

              Matthew Johnson
              Waiting for the blessed hope and the appearance of the glory of our
              great God and Saviour Jesus Christ (Ti 2:13).
            • James R. Adair
              ... Let s remember that civility is a virtue on this list. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of NT scholars who have examined the papyri have
              Message 6 of 7 , Feb 6, 1998
                On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, Matthew Johnson wrote:

                > This is getting further and further off the topic of Textual Criticism.
                > What is worse, I see that you did not even answer the question. Instead
                > you expose your own ideological bias by your subtle replacement of the
                > question with a different question.
                >
                > For the question was "do you know of an on-line source discussing the
                > _pros and cons_? But you answered with a site that is not only already
                > four years out-of-date, but is conspicuously purely against Thiede's
                > claim. So this site has no claim to be an on-line source discussing the
                > pros and cons.

                Let's remember that civility is a virtue on this list. The fact of the
                matter is that the vast majority of NT scholars who have examined the
                papyri have concluded that Thiede's date in the first century is too
                early.

                In passing, I should note that saying that the argument is four-and-a-half
                years old proves nothing, since it appeared shortly after Theide's article
                in ZPE--it's the argument itself, not its date, that must be considered.
                Also, unless you can demonstrate that bias plays a role in the development
                of the argument, your disagreement with other pages on the site is
                irrelevant.

                Are there any online arguments that support Thiede? The only one I know
                of, and one that's worth reading, is by Jose O'Callaghan, "Un papiro
                revolucionario: 7Q5," which contains an interview with Father O'Callaghan
                on this and related subjects
                (http://ekeko.rcp.net.pe/IAL/vm/texts/ocal7q5.htm). Both this link and a
                link to Sigrid Peterson's article (at a different URL than given in an
                earlier post) are accessible from the TC-Links page:
                http://purl.org/TC/TC-links.html (which I hope qualifies as unbiased!).

                Jimmy Adair, Listowner, TC-List
                Manager of Information Technology Services, Scholars Press
                and
                Managing Editor of TELA, the Scholars Press World Wide Web Site
                -------------> http://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu <--------------
              • Dexter Garnier
                ... The following url will translate the interview at the url noted above into English: http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/translate? Also a short
                Message 7 of 7 , Feb 7, 1998
                  On 2/6/98 5:57 PM James R. Adair wrote:

                  >Are there any online arguments that support Thiede? The only one I know
                  >of, and one that's worth reading, is by Jose O'Callaghan, "Un papiro
                  >revolucionario: 7Q5," which contains an interview with Father O'Callaghan
                  >on this and related subjects
                  >(http://ekeko.rcp.net.pe/IAL/vm/texts/ocal7q5.htm).

                  The following url will translate the interview at the url noted above
                  into English:

                  http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/translate?

                  Also a short time back I purchased a pamphlet:

                  _Supplement to JBL 91 (1972) No. 2_

                  It contains in English:
                  1. _New Testament Papyri In Qumran Cave 7?_ Jose O'Callaghan - Rome
                  2. _Notes on The Papyri of Qumran Cave 7_ Carlo Martini - Rome

                  On the front cover is written the following brief introduction:

                  "(In view of the publicity given in various news media in the U.S.A.
                  to the matter contained in the acompanying articles, it has been decided
                  to make an English version of them available as a service to JBL readers.
                  The translation has been prepared from Jose O'Callaghan's Spanish article,
                  "?Papiros neotestamentarios en la cueva 7 de Qumran?" _Biblica_ 53 (1972)
                  91-100, and from Carlo Martini's Italian article, "Note sui papiri della
                  grotto 7 di Qumran," _ibid_., 101-4. Quotations in French and German in
                  the
                  original have been left intact; one quotation in Latin has been given an
                  English translation. The translation of the two articles is the work of
                  William L. Holladay, of Andover Newton Theological School, Newton Centre,
                  Mass, 02159, to whom we are all grateful. Thanks are also due to the edi-
                  tor of _Biblica_ for the permission to circulate this translation of the
                  two
                  articles. -- Editor.)

                  I am not qualified to evaluate either article. However, both scholars (it
                  seems
                  to me) make points that at least merit interest.

                  Regards,

                  Dexter Garnier
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