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  • Huey Bahr
    In my humble view, there is more than one objective for Biblical Textual Criticism. The primary one is to recover the earliest recoverable text. Another is to
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 23, 1998
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      In my humble view, there is more than one objective for Biblical Textual
      Criticism.
      The primary one is to recover the earliest recoverable text. Another is to
      reconstruct
      the history of the transmission of the text.There is a lot to be learned
      from the Byzantine
      Manuscripts, information that would be valuable to church historians, and
      theologians.
      Though this text was the dominant text type for much of church history, it
      continued to
      change. Why? perhaps if we can gather and sort out the changes, and hazard
      a guess as
      to when each change began to appear, we will have something of real value
      to other disciplines.
      Every variation that is not purely accidental, bears witness to a
      particular understanding
      of the Biblical text. Collation is important. We have so much raw data.
      If only we can
      manage to sort through and gather the information.

      Huey Bahr (hbahr3@...)
    • Carlton Winbery
      From the discussion of history of text; ... One interesting development is the application of the rule, when to use the movable nu (or I prefer the way Ward
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 23, 1998
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        From the discussion of history of text;

        >>> Every variation that is not purely accidental, bears witness to a
        >>> particular understanding of the Biblical text.
        >>
        >>Could you elaborate on this idea a little?
        >
        >I'm not sure what the original author meant, but I concur with the
        >idea.
        >
        >Put it this way: Scribes would naturally tend to make the text
        >conform with their prejudices -- which in turn reflect their
        >theology. An obvious example is John 7:8. The original text surely
        >quotes Jesus as saying that he "would not" go up to the feast.
        >But he *did* go to the feast. So scribes, who could not bear
        >the idea that Jesus would lie, change his mind, or be wrong,
        >corrected this to would not yet" go to the feast.
        >
        >I'm not sure if there are enough variants of this type to reveal
        >anything about scribes' thought patterns -- but I suppose there
        >might be.
        >
        One interesting development is the application of the rule, when to use the
        "movable nu" (or I prefer the way Ward Powers says it - the omission of nu
        in certain situations.

        When 1346 was penned, the scribe seems not to know the rule and uses the nu
        almost wherever he can (after SI, SE, etc) very much like it is in the
        UBS/N-A. A corrector (probably sometime after the 13th century) erases
        most of the nu's before consonants (hundreds of erasures), making the use
        conform to the rule as it generally does in the various editions of the TR.
        I hope that collators will make a practice of taking note of such
        variations (not many do). They can help us see that the later Byzantine
        scribes did update the texts at least in this area. It is also interesting
        to those of us who like to do a history of the language.



        Carlton L. Winbery
        Fogleman Professor of Religion
        Louisiana College
        Pineville, LA 71359
        winberyc@...
        winbery@...
      • Jonathan D. Safren
        I find the exchange of viewpoints on the goals of tectual criticism to be both enlightening and useful, and I m going to make use of it in my Intro to Bible
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 24, 1998
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          I find the exchange of viewpoints on the goals of tectual criticism to
          be both enlightening and useful, and I'm going to make use of it in my
          Intro to Bible course.
          Thanks to both of you,
          jonathan d. Safren
          Dept. of Biblical studies
          Beit Berl College
        • Robert B. Waltz
          ... Depends on what one s interests are. If one is a textual critic, this is of course true. But a history of the Byzantine text might be more interesting to
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 24, 1998
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            On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, dwashbur@... wrote:

            >> In my humble view, there is more than one objective for Biblical Textual
            >> Criticism.
            >> The primary one is to recover the earliest recoverable text.
            >
            >I would call this the ultimate objective, the one toward which the
            >other objectives lead.

            Depends on what one's interests are. If one is a textual critic, this
            is of course true. But a history of the Byzantine text might be more
            interesting to one writing the history of the Orthodox church. :-)

            >> Another is to reconstruct
            >> the history of the transmission of the text.
            >
            >As an end in itself, I sometimes wonder how much real value there is
            >in this.

            Again, it depends on one's interests. OTOH, I would argue that our
            opinion of the history of the text is one of the most important
            elements (in my case, *the* most important element) in determining
            how we practice textual criticism. (This was pointed out by
            Michael Holmes. It's amazing how a single chance comment can
            affect one's viewpoint. :-)

            [ ... ]

            >> There is a lot to be learned from the Byzantine
            >> Manuscripts, information that would be valuable to church historians, and
            >> theologians.
            >> Though this text was the dominant text type for much of church history, it
            >> continued to
            >> change. Why? perhaps if we can gather and sort out the changes, and hazard
            >> a guess as
            >> to when each change began to appear, we will have something of real value
            >> to other disciplines.
            >
            >Not just to other disciplines, I suspect. I do wonder how much the
            >history of change within the Byz tradition can tell us about scribal
            >habits, and how much we can extrapolate those habits back to the
            >pre-Byz traditions. I'm just raising questions here, I would hardly
            >consider myself qualified to answer them.

            One might actually be surprised at the applications of this sort of
            knowledge. For example, a biologist and I once discussed the relationship
            between TC and biology. She understood it in terms of genetics, and
            found deep similarities in the fields. I am not saying that the two
            are directly analogous, and any suggestions from one discipline must
            be tested in the other. But it is possible that they might offer
            hypotheses to test.

            Perhaps closer to home, there are analogies here to the transmission
            of folklore and folk music, and any other traditional art forms
            (pottery styles, perhaps, and hence to archaeology?).

            Most things in the universe evolve in one way or another. Thus they
            all show a certain sort of kinship with TC.

            >> Every variation that is not purely accidental, bears witness to a
            >> particular understanding of the Biblical text.
            >
            >Could you elaborate on this idea a little?

            I'm not sure what the original author meant, but I concur with the
            idea.

            Put it this way: Scribes would naturally tend to make the text
            conform with their prejudices -- which in turn reflect their
            theology. An obvious example is John 7:8. The original text surely
            quotes Jesus as saying that he "would not" go up to the feast.
            But he *did* go to the feast. So scribes, who could not bear
            the idea that Jesus would lie, change his mind, or be wrong,
            corrected this to would not yet" go to the feast.

            I'm not sure if there are enough variants of this type to reveal
            anything about scribes' thought patterns -- but I suppose there
            might be.

            -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

            Robert B. Waltz
            waltzmn@...

            Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism?
            Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn
            (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism)
          • Jim West
            ... On this one would do well to turn to Bart Ehrman s Orthodox Corruption of Scripture - an excellent book for anyone even remotely interested in things TC.
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 24, 1998
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              At 08:33 AM 1/24/98 -0600, you wrote:

              >Put it this way: Scribes would naturally tend to make the text
              >conform with their prejudices -- which in turn reflect their
              >theology. An obvious example is John 7:8. The original text surely
              >quotes Jesus as saying that he "would not" go up to the feast.
              >But he *did* go to the feast. So scribes, who could not bear
              >the idea that Jesus would lie, change his mind, or be wrong,
              >corrected this to would not yet" go to the feast.
              >
              >I'm not sure if there are enough variants of this type to reveal
              >anything about scribes' thought patterns -- but I suppose there
              >might be.

              On this one would do well to turn to Bart Ehrman's "Orthodox Corruption of
              Scripture"- an excellent book for anyone even remotely interested in things TC.

              Jim

              ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
              Jim West, ThD
              Adjunct Professor of Bible
              Quartz Hill School of Theology

              jwest@...
            • Jack Kilmon
              ... As a biologist who dabbles in TC for fun, I have always seen the same comparison. The extant mss are our fossils which we divide into phyla (Byzantine,
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 24, 1998
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                Robert B. Waltz wrote:

                > One might actually be surprised at the applications of this sort of
                > knowledge. For example, a biologist and I once discussed the
                > relationship
                > between TC and biology. She understood it in terms of genetics, and
                > found deep similarities in the fields. I am not saying that the two
                > are directly analogous, and any suggestions from one discipline must
                > be tested in the other. But it is possible that they might offer
                > hypotheses to test.

                As a biologist who dabbles in TC for fun, I have always seen
                the same comparison. The extant mss are our "fossils" which we
                divide into phyla (Byzantine, Alexandrian, etc) and further into
                "families such as 1739, 2138 and through "comparative anatomy"
                into Genera. P52 is "Lucy" at the present time (g). Through form
                criticism we can even speculate about the "primordial soup"
                (Aramaic sources/NT) for which we, unfortunately, have no fossil
                record but for a probable "relic species" (Syriac). TC sure is
                fun for a biologist! (g)

                Jack

                --
                D’man dith laych idneh d’nishMA nishMA
                Jack Kilmon (jpman@...)


                http://scriptorium.accesscomm.net
              • Bernard A. Taylor
                ... Jim, Could you give bibliographical information on this? It sounds intriguing. Regards, Bernard Taylor
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 24, 1998
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                  Jim West wrote:

                  > On this one would do well to turn to Bart Ehrman's "Orthodox Corruption of
                  > Scripture"- an excellent book for anyone even remotely interested in things TC.

                  Jim,

                  Could you give bibliographical information on this? It sounds
                  intriguing.

                  Regards,

                  Bernard Taylor
                • Huey Bahr
                  ... things TC. I have to admit Ehrman s influance on my thoughts. My premise is this: scribes did not intentionally corrupt the text. They either corrected
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 24, 1998
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                    >On this one would do well to turn to Bart Ehrman's "Orthodox Corruption of
                    >Scripture"- an excellent book for anyone even remotely interested in
                    things TC.

                    I have to admit Ehrman's influance on my thoughts.

                    My premise is this: scribes did not intentionally corrupt the text. They
                    either "corrected" it or "supplemented" it. I think that what was changed
                    and when is valuable information that we should preserve and pass on to the
                    other fields of study. From the other fields we can learn why the change
                    was considered to be an improvement. These insights in turn may help us
                    recognize other passages that may have been altered for simular reasons.

                    For example, some scribes added the story of the woman caught in adultery
                    to John's Gospel. We know the aproximate age of the oldest manuscripts to
                    contain it. We know from patristic evidence that the story circulated in
                    slightly different forms before landing between chapters seven and eight of
                    John. Now we can provide that information to church historians and
                    theologians. Perhaps they can provide us with insights as to why it may
                    have been added.

                    Studying the changes in the Vulgate Manuscripts potentially yields a
                    harvest of information on the Western Church and the Latin language, The
                    Byzantine Manuscripts the same for the Eastern Church and Greek. Neither
                    the Vulgate or the Byzantine text is likely to lead us to the original
                    text, but they are both worth studying for their own merits.
                  • Jim West
                    ... things TC. ... Bart Ehrman- The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture , Oxford University Press, 1996 (?). ... ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 24, 1998
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                      At 01:26 PM 1/24/98 -0800, you wrote:
                      >Jim West wrote:
                      >
                      >> On this one would do well to turn to Bart Ehrman's "Orthodox Corruption of
                      >> Scripture"- an excellent book for anyone even remotely interested in
                      things TC.
                      >
                      >Jim,
                      >
                      >Could you give bibliographical information on this? It sounds
                      >intriguing.
                      >

                      Bart Ehrman- "The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture", Oxford University
                      Press, 1996 (?).

                      >Regards,
                      >
                      >Bernard Taylor
                      >
                      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                      Jim West, ThD
                      Adjunct Professor of Bible
                      Quartz Hill School of Theology

                      jwest@...
                    • Roderic L. Mullen
                      In re the pericope of the woman caught in adultery, I ve been reading a copy of D. C. Parker s *LIVING TEXT OF THE GOSPELS* (just out with Cambridge U.PR.) for
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 24, 1998
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                        In re the pericope of the woman caught in adultery, I've been reading a copy
                        of D. C. Parker's *LIVING TEXT OF THE GOSPELS* (just out with Cambridge
                        U.PR.) for a review. Parker devotes a very interesting chapter to the
                        textual ins and outs of the passage. --Rod Mullen

                        At 03:56 PM 1/24/98 -0600, you wrote:
                        >>On this one would do well to turn to Bart Ehrman's "Orthodox Corruption of
                        >>Scripture"- an excellent book for anyone even remotely interested in
                        >things TC.
                        >
                        >I have to admit Ehrman's influance on my thoughts.
                        >
                        >My premise is this: scribes did not intentionally corrupt the text. They
                        >either "corrected" it or "supplemented" it. I think that what was changed
                        >and when is valuable information that we should preserve and pass on to the
                        >other fields of study. From the other fields we can learn why the change
                        >was considered to be an improvement. These insights in turn may help us
                        >recognize other passages that may have been altered for simular reasons.
                        >
                        >For example, some scribes added the story of the woman caught in adultery
                        >to John's Gospel. We know the aproximate age of the oldest manuscripts to
                        >contain it. We know from patristic evidence that the story circulated in
                        >slightly different forms before landing between chapters seven and eight of
                        >John. Now we can provide that information to church historians and
                        >theologians. Perhaps they can provide us with insights as to why it may
                        >have been added.
                        >
                        >Studying the changes in the Vulgate Manuscripts potentially yields a
                        >harvest of information on the Western Church and the Latin language, The
                        >Byzantine Manuscripts the same for the Eastern Church and Greek. Neither
                        >the Vulgate or the Byzantine text is likely to lead us to the original
                        >text, but they are both worth studying for their own merits.
                        >
                      • dwashbur@nyx.net
                        ... I would call this the ultimate objective, the one toward which the other objectives lead. ... As an end in itself, I sometimes wonder how much real value
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 26, 1998
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                          > In my humble view, there is more than one objective for Biblical Textual
                          > Criticism.
                          > The primary one is to recover the earliest recoverable text.

                          I would call this the ultimate objective, the one toward which the
                          other objectives lead.

                          > Another is to reconstruct
                          > the history of the transmission of the text.

                          As an end in itself, I sometimes wonder how much real value there is
                          in this. As a way to understand scribal habits and gain a better
                          understanding of how to go about recovering the earliest possible
                          text (the "original" however one conceives it), agreed.

                          > There is a lot to be learned from the Byzantine
                          > Manuscripts, information that would be valuable to church historians, and
                          > theologians.
                          > Though this text was the dominant text type for much of church history, it
                          > continued to
                          > change. Why? perhaps if we can gather and sort out the changes, and hazard
                          > a guess as
                          > to when each change began to appear, we will have something of real value
                          > to other disciplines.

                          Not just to other disciplines, I suspect. I do wonder how much the
                          history of change within the Byz tradition can tell us about scribal
                          habits, and how much we can extrapolate those habits back to the
                          pre-Byz traditions. I'm just raising questions here, I would hardly
                          consider myself qualified to answer them.

                          > Every variation that is not purely accidental, bears witness to a
                          > particular understanding of the Biblical text.

                          Could you elaborate on this idea a little?


                          Dave Washburn
                          dwashbur@...
                          http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur/
                          If you don't know where you're going, don't lead.
                        • Matthew Johnson
                          On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Huey Bahr wrote: [snip] ... Actually, the Vulgate has surprising links with what could be the original text. This is because the Vulgate
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 29, 1998
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                            On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Huey Bahr wrote:

                            [snip]
                            >
                            > Studying the changes in the Vulgate Manuscripts potentially yields a
                            > harvest of information on the Western Church and the Latin language, The
                            > Byzantine Manuscripts the same for the Eastern Church and Greek. Neither
                            > the Vulgate or the Byzantine text is likely to lead us to the original
                            > text, but they are both worth studying for their own merits.

                            Actually, the Vulgate has surprising links with what could be the
                            original text. This is because the Vulgate didn't really take over as
                            the standard until several centuries after it was written. In the
                            meantime, people continued to copy the Old Latin version, even mixing
                            it with the Vulgate.

                            Now the Old Latin, although it has its own text types (African,
                            Spanish, etc), is in turn closely related to the 'Western' text-type.
                            I expect there are few subscribers to this list who doubt the value of
                            the 'Western' type in the search for original readings.

                            Besides, much of the New Testament, even in Jerome's Vulgate, was
                            copied almost unmodified from the Old Latin. Perhaps the Pope was
                            putting pressure on Jerome to finish.

                            Matthew Johnson
                            Waiting for the blessed hope and the appearance of the glory of our
                            great God and Saviour Jesus Christ (Ti 2:13).
                          • U. Schmid
                            ... This goes too fast for me to make sense. Besides, what do you mean by several centuries? When consulting _B. Fischer, Die Lateinischen Evangelien bis zum
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 30, 1998
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                              On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Matthew Johnson wrote:

                              >On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Huey Bahr wrote:
                              >
                              >[snip]
                              >>
                              >> Studying the changes in the Vulgate Manuscripts potentially yields a
                              >> harvest of information on the Western Church and the Latin language, The
                              >> Byzantine Manuscripts the same for the Eastern Church and Greek. Neither
                              >> the Vulgate or the Byzantine text is likely to lead us to the original
                              >> text, but they are both worth studying for their own merits.
                              >
                              >Actually, the Vulgate has surprising links with what could be the
                              >original text. This is because the Vulgate didn't really take over as
                              >the standard until several centuries after it was written. In the
                              >meantime, people continued to copy the Old Latin version, even mixing
                              >it with the Vulgate.

                              This goes too fast for me to make sense. Besides, what do you mean by
                              several centuries? When consulting _B. Fischer, Die Lateinischen Evangelien
                              bis zum 10. Jahrhundert (4 vols.), 1988-1991_ I find 21 Mss counted among
                              the Old Latin type(s), while around 430 are counted among the Vg Mss.
                              Though it is true that virtually every Vg Ms has some sort of Old Latin
                              tincture, nevertheless your statement seems to be too unsubtle. BTW-- We
                              know virtually nothing about the later history of the Vulgate from the 10th
                              to the 15th centuries.

                              >Now the Old Latin, although it has its own text types (African,
                              >Spanish, etc), is in turn closely related to the 'Western' text-type.
                              >I expect there are few subscribers to this list who doubt the value of
                              >the 'Western' type in the search for original readings.

                              Which witnesses belong to the *Spanish* Old Latin text type for which books?

                              Again, your statement concerning the Old Latin's relation to the 'Western'
                              text-type seems too broad in my view. The differentiation among the Old
                              Latin witnesses of the 'Western' text-type of the Gospels, for example, is
                              much greater than among the Pauline Epistles. If you take D (05) to be the
                              core witness of the 'Western' text-type of the Gospels, its facing Latin
                              column d (OL 5) is relatively isolated among its Old Latin surroundings.

                              >Besides, much of the New Testament, even in Jerome's Vulgate, was
                              >copied almost unmodified from the Old Latin. Perhaps the Pope was
                              >putting pressure on Jerome to finish.

                              Part of the NT Vulgate, for example the Pauline Epistles, most likely
                              wasn't even the work of Jerome.

                              Again, what is the point you are making?


                              Ulrich Schmid


                              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              Netherlands Institute for Advanced Study
                              schmiul@...
                            • Robert B. Waltz
                              On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, schmiul@nias.knaw.nl (U. Schmid) wrote, in part (I only comment where I have something intelligent to say): [ ... ] ... I would say it s
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jan 30, 1998
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                                On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, schmiul@... (U. Schmid) wrote,
                                in part (I only comment where I have something intelligent to say):

                                [ ... ]

                                >Again, your statement concerning the Old Latin's relation to the 'Western'
                                >text-type seems too broad in my view. The differentiation among the Old
                                >Latin witnesses of the 'Western' text-type of the Gospels, for example, is
                                >much greater than among the Pauline Epistles. If you take D (05) to be the
                                >core witness of the 'Western' text-type of the Gospels, its facing Latin
                                >column d (OL 5) is relatively isolated among its Old Latin surroundings.

                                I would say it's more than "relatively" isolated; it's extremely
                                isolated. Just as D/05 is isolated among the "Western" witnesses.

                                Whatever one believes about D and its history, it is not a typical
                                "Western" witness of the type.

                                Not so, however, in Paul. I agree that the Latin witnesses here
                                agree much more closely (except for r, which is very distinct and
                                in places almost Alexandrian).

                                Interestingly, the Latin side of Claromontanus seems to be the
                                typical "Western" witness to Paul. It has higher rates of agreement
                                with the other witnesses tested (D, F/G, a, b, d, f, vg) than they
                                have with each other. The Old Latin b is next.

                                -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

                                Robert B. Waltz
                                waltzmn@...

                                Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism?
                                Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn
                                (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism)
                              • Matthew Johnson
                                Ulrich Schmiud wrote: ... Really? I can t see why, unless you are trying very hard to read between the lines and see some claim I did not make. ... There is
                                Message 15 of 17 , Feb 2, 1998
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                                  Ulrich Schmiud wrote:
                                  Matthew Johnson wrote:
                                  >>Actually, the Vulgate has surprising links with what could be the
                                  >>original text. This is because the Vulgate didn't really take over as
                                  >>the standard until several centuries after it was written. In the
                                  >>meantime, people continued to copy the Old Latin version, even mixing
                                  >>it with the Vulgate.

                                  >This goes too fast for me to make sense.

                                  Really? I can't see why, unless you are trying very hard to
                                  read between the lines and see some claim I did not make.

                                  > Besides, what do you mean by
                                  > several centuries?

                                  There is nothing unclear here. Several centuries IS the time between
                                  that when Jerome finished his work on the Vulgate (whether he really
                                  did do only the OT and Gospels or not) and the time it finally took
                                  over as the official text of the Roman Church. It was not until Trent
                                  that Pope and Council proclaimed it official, and not until Bacon's
                                  time that he [Roger Bacon] could get away with saying that Jerome's
                                  Vulgate was the true text of the church, which must not be tampered
                                  with.

                                  > When consulting _B. Fischer, Die Lateinischen Evangelien
                                  >bis zum 10. Jahrhundert (4 vols.), 1988-1991_ I find 21 Mss counted among
                                  >the Old Latin type(s), while around 430 are counted among the Vg Mss.

                                  But what does this really mean? These numbers tell us next to nothing
                                  about which text was predominant when. Nor do these numbers tell us
                                  anything about Old Latin readings surviving in Vulgate manuscripts,
                                  nor about Old Latin manuscripts harmonized to the Vulgate. Both
                                  phenomena were common enough.

                                  >Though it is true that virtually every Vg Ms has some sort of Old Latin
                                  >tincture, nevertheless your statement seems to be too unsubtle. BTW-- We
                                  >know virtually nothing about the later history of the Vulgate from the 10th
                                  >to the 15th centuries.

                                  This may be true, but it would have little bearing on the application
                                  of the knowledge of the history of the Vulgate text to understanding
                                  the Old Latin & therefore the Western text, since for this we are by
                                  far more concerned with the Vulgate in an earlier period, for which we
                                  know the history better.

                                  >Part of the NT Vulgate, for example the Pauline Epistles, most likely
                                  >wasn't even the work of Jerome.

                                  Now how _would_ you tell the difference between this claim and the
                                  scenario I described, that:
                                  >>Besides, much of the New Testament, even in Jerome's Vulgate, was
                                  >>copied almost unmodified from the Old Latin. Perhaps the Pope was
                                  >>putting pressure on Jerome to finish.

                                  In either case, the Vulgate NT outside the Gospels remains mostly Old
                                  Latin. So now it is my turn to ask you: what is the point _you_ are
                                  trying to make?

                                  The point I am trying to make is not that subtle or mysterious. It is
                                  that the previous poster seems to be dismissing the Vulgate text as
                                  irrelevant to finding original readings. But because of the close
                                  relation between the Old Latin and the Western text, this dismissal is
                                  uncalled for.

                                  But I am not arguing for unique original readings in the Vulgate. In
                                  fact, I am not aware of any (although I would not be surprised if a very
                                  small handful of such existed). What I am arguing for is its relevance
                                  to the history of the text, and to the process of establishing which
                                  reading best explains the others.

                                  Since in a slightly earlier post you referred to Metzger's handling of
                                  the longer ending of Mark, it seems appropriate to remind you that
                                  Metzger gave a copule examples of this very process (using the Old
                                  Latin) in handling this very passage, as well as in handling Luke's
                                  "Glory to God in the highest...". In both cases, the absence of one
                                  variant in the Old Latin serves as a "tie-breaker", so that external
                                  evidence alone may establish which reading is earlier.

                                  He also points out that from the Vulgate (and Jerome's comments on his
                                  translation process), we knew that the longer ending of Mark was
                                  present in the Greek manuscript tradition, even though no such
                                  manuscript was catalogued until W was discovered.


                                  Matthew Johnson
                                  Waiting for the blessed hope and the appearance of the glory of our
                                  great God and Saviour Jesus Christ (Ti 2:13).
                                • Glen Thompson
                                  ... The question, as I see it, is not when the Vulgate became the official text of the Roman church, but when it became the predominant text among
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Feb 2, 1998
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                                    > Matthew Johnson wrote:

                                    > There is nothing unclear here. Several centuries IS the time between
                                    > that when Jerome finished his work on the Vulgate (whether he really
                                    > did do only the OT and Gospels or not) and the time it finally took
                                    > over as the official text of the Roman Church. It was not until Trent
                                    > that Pope and Council proclaimed it official, and not until Bacon's
                                    > time that he [Roger Bacon] could get away with saying that Jerome's
                                    > Vulgate was the true text of the church, which must not be tampered
                                    > with.

                                    The question, as I see it, is not when the Vulgate became the
                                    "official" text of the Roman church, but when it became the
                                    predominant text among Latin-using Christians. While Old Latin
                                    influences certainly survived for several centuries, the Vulgate
                                    seems to have become the predominant text long before Bacon or
                                    Trent.

                                    > >>Besides, much of the New Testament, even in Jerome's Vulgate, was
                                    > >>copied almost unmodified from the Old Latin. Perhaps the Pope was
                                    > >>putting pressure on Jerome to finish.

                                    Damasus of Rome was a friend of Jerome and he was the pope who
                                    (according to Jerome) asked or suggested that he work on a new
                                    translation. Damasus died shortly after that request was made and
                                    his successor, Siricius, was anything but friendly to Jerome, one
                                    cause for the latter's departure from the capital and journey to the
                                    East. Thus I doubt whether Siuricius or his successors would try or
                                    succeed in influencing what Jerome did. On the other hand, one need
                                    only look at Jerome's bibilical commentaries to see that he was, for
                                    the most part, a collector and editor rather than an original
                                    scholar. With this in mind, one might argue that at least in some
                                    sections of the Vulgate he decided to edit from previoius versions
                                    rather than translate anew.

                                    Glen L. Thompson
                                  • U. Schmid
                                    ... Your statement above consists of three sentences that obviously interrelate and are intended to make a point. From my perspective, however, there seem to
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Feb 3, 1998
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, Matthew Johnson wrote:

                                      >Ulrich Schmiud wrote:
                                      > Matthew Johnson wrote:
                                      >>>Actually, the Vulgate has surprising links with what could be the
                                      >>>original text. This is because the Vulgate didn't really take over as
                                      >>>the standard until several centuries after it was written. In the
                                      >>>meantime, people continued to copy the Old Latin version, even mixing
                                      >>>it with the Vulgate.
                                      >
                                      >>This goes too fast for me to make sense.
                                      >
                                      >Really? I can't see why, unless you are trying very hard to
                                      >read between the lines and see some claim I did not make.

                                      Your statement above consists of three sentences that obviously interrelate
                                      and are intended to make a point. From my perspective, however, there seem
                                      to lay a lot of implicite arguments behind the three sentences in order to
                                      make a point. And I simply was not sure, whether I got them all. E.g., why
                                      are there *surprising* links between the Vulgate and the *original text*?
                                      Are you talking about the *original text* of the Latin version or the
                                      Greek? Why can the non-take-over of the Vulgate as a standard text be
                                      considered as a (the?) *reason* for the *surprising* links? Moreover, the
                                      time frame *several centuries* was not clear to me? Therefore, I asked the
                                      following question:


                                      >> Besides, what do you mean by
                                      >> several centuries?
                                      >
                                      >There is nothing unclear here. Several centuries IS the time between
                                      >that when Jerome finished his work on the Vulgate (whether he really
                                      >did do only the OT and Gospels or not) and the time it finally took
                                      >over as the official text of the Roman Church. It was not until Trent
                                      >that Pope and Council proclaimed it official, and not until Bacon's
                                      >time that he [Roger Bacon] could get away with saying that Jerome's
                                      >Vulgate was the true text of the church, which must not be tampered
                                      >with.

                                      To which Glen Thompson already replied: "The question, as I see it, is not
                                      when the Vulgate became the
                                      "official" text of the Roman church, but when it became the
                                      predominant text among Latin-using Christians. While Old Latin
                                      influences certainly survived for several centuries, the Vulgate
                                      seems to have become the predominant text long before Bacon or
                                      Trent."

                                      [Schmid]
                                      >> When consulting _B. Fischer, Die Lateinischen Evangelien
                                      >>bis zum 10. Jahrhundert (4 vols.), 1988-1991_ I find 21 Mss counted among
                                      >>the Old Latin type(s), while around 430 are counted among the Vg Mss.
                                      >
                                      >But what does this really mean? These numbers tell us next to nothing
                                      >about which text was predominant when. Nor do these numbers tell us
                                      >anything about Old Latin readings surviving in Vulgate manuscripts,
                                      >nor about Old Latin manuscripts harmonized to the Vulgate. Both
                                      >phenomena were common enough.

                                      There certainly is a limited number of cases for which it is hard to decide
                                      whether we are actually dealing with Old Latin texts being "vulgatized"
                                      (i.e., adapted to a dominant Vulgate text) or Vulgate texts being
                                      influenced by Old Latin texts. Yet I think the general figures do indeed
                                      tell us something. Though occasionally Old Latin texts had been copied in
                                      later times - just as old, non-Byzantine texts had been copied in the greek
                                      minuscule times -, the vast majority of Latin Mss from the 5th to 9th/10th
                                      centuries seem to basically belong to the Vulgate type. Thus the latter
                                      phenomenon seems to tell us something about the predominant text for most
                                      every place of Ms production despite a much later "official" (church
                                      council) reception of this text.

                                      [Schmid]
                                      >>Though it is true that virtually every Vg Ms has some sort of Old Latin
                                      >>tincture, nevertheless your statement seems to be too unsubtle. BTW-- We
                                      >>know virtually nothing about the later history of the Vulgate from the 10th
                                      >>to the 15th centuries.
                                      >
                                      >This may be true, but it would have little bearing on the application
                                      >of the knowledge of the history of the Vulgate text to understanding
                                      >the Old Latin & therefore the Western text, since for this we are by
                                      >far more concerned with the Vulgate in an earlier period, for which we
                                      >know the history better.

                                      Who knows? Within the literally thousands of later Vulgate Mss we might
                                      even detect more and different residues of Old Latin tincture than we
                                      already know, thus possibly pointing partly to a much stronger Old Latin
                                      element even in later times. This could even serve to strengthen your
                                      point, if I understand it correctly.

                                      [Schmid]
                                      >>Part of the NT Vulgate, for example the Pauline Epistles, most likely
                                      >>wasn't even the work of Jerome.
                                      >
                                      >Now how _would_ you tell the difference between this claim and the
                                      >scenario I described, that:
                                      >>>Besides, much of the New Testament, even in Jerome's Vulgate, was
                                      >>>copied almost unmodified from the Old Latin. Perhaps the Pope was
                                      >>>putting pressure on Jerome to finish.
                                      >
                                      >In either case, the Vulgate NT outside the Gospels remains mostly Old
                                      >Latin. So now it is my turn to ask you: what is the point _you_ are
                                      >trying to make?

                                      Again, your statement is much too unsubtle. According to _Walter Thiele,
                                      Probleme der Versio Latina in den Katholischen Briefen, in: Die Alten
                                      Uebersetzungen des Neuen Testaments, die Kirchenvaeterzitate und Lektionare
                                      (ed. K. Aland), ANTF 5 (Berlin - New York 1972), pp. 93-119_, the Vulgate
                                      of the Catholic Epistles, though interlocked with the Old Latin types, has
                                      a unique character when compared to the Old Latin.

                                      [Johnson]
                                      >The point I am trying to make is not that subtle or mysterious. It is
                                      >that the previous poster seems to be dismissing the Vulgate text as
                                      >irrelevant to finding original readings. But because of the close
                                      >relation between the Old Latin and the Western text, this dismissal is
                                      >uncalled for.

                                      So the point you are making is dependent on the role of the "Western text".
                                      Is this correct? But this involves a whole *kosmos* of theories on the
                                      "Western text", which are hotly debated. You simply cannot expect me (or
                                      others) to know which theories you subscribe to in that respect, nor that I
                                      subscribe.

                                      >But I am not arguing for unique original readings in the Vulgate. In
                                      >fact, I am not aware of any (although I would not be surprised if a very
                                      >small handful of such existed). What I am arguing for is its relevance
                                      >to the history of the text, and to the process of establishing which
                                      >reading best explains the others.

                                      Here we possibly meet one of the sources of our misunderstandings, if I may
                                      put it that way. You are concerned with *original readings* (Greek Urtext?)
                                      and overall textual history, while my concern in this case (i.e., Latin
                                      version) is a much more modest one. I'm simply struggling with the history
                                      of the *Latin versions* on its own. In that perspective your inferences
                                      from the Latin versions towards overall textual theory seems to me an
                                      example of oversimplification on the Latin side.

                                      >Since in a slightly earlier post you referred to Metzger's handling of
                                      >the longer ending of Mark,

                                      [snip]

                                      Now that strikes me.
                                      a) When ("slightly earlier") did I refer to Metzger?
                                      b) When did I refer to Metzger in a connection that is pertinent to our
                                      present discussion?
                                      Remember, my focus is on the Latin versions and the understanding of their
                                      development. From my point of view I only addressed questions related to
                                      that problem. (E.g., if Jerome were not responsible for the Vulgate of the
                                      whole NT, speculations on the pope's "pressure" accounting for the Old
                                      Latin element in the Vulgate is of no help.) I need to understand this
                                      problem first before connecting it to overall textual theory. Your initial
                                      abbreviated presentation of the Latin versions was too condensed to be
                                      clear to me. I simply called for a more detailed outline on your side.
                                      Maybe I should have been more explicit on that.

                                      Ulrich Schmid



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