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Re: tc-list 1John 5:7

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  • Ronald L. Minton
    ... On page 352, Maynard claims the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not find a clear quote in Cyprian. Can anyone shed light on early church fathers and
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 22, 1997
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      On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Mark Johnson wrote:
      > The main arguments made in this book are appeals to the indirect tradition
      > ( Old Syriac, Old Latin and Latin patristic sources, among others ) and
      > providential preservation. The problem with this approach is that to argue
      > that the direct tradition ( Greek MSS ) has become badly corrupt argues
      > against providential preservation. The author makes much of the fact that
      > the Textus Receptus contains it, but not all editions of the TR do. In
      > short, the Johannine Comma has little to recommend it, either textually or
      > theologically.

      > From: PastorCHBC@...
      > Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:52:18 -0500 (EST)
      > I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist
      > Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate
      > Over I John 5:7-8 by Michael Maynard published by Comma Publications. P.
      > O. Box 1625, Temple Az. 85281-1625. I you have access to this book I
      > would like your evaluation of it.
      > Gene Hughes


      On page 352, Maynard claims the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not
      find a clear quote in Cyprian. Can anyone shed light on early church
      fathers and the comma?

      --
      Prof. Ron Minton: rminton@... W (417)268-6053 H 833-9581
      Baptist Bible Graduate School 628 E. Kearney St. Springfield, MO 65803
    • Ronald L. Minton
      On page 352 of _A History of the Debate Over I John 5:7, Maynard claims the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not find a clear case of this in Cyprian. Can
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 26, 1997
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        On page 352 of _A History of the Debate Over I John 5:7, Maynard claims
        the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not find a clear case of this in
        Cyprian. Can anyone help me identify who was the first to really quote
        the comma?

        --
        Prof. Ron Minton: rminton@... W (417)268-6053 H 833-9581
        Baptist Bible Graduate School 628 E. Kearney St. Springfield, MO 65803
      • Kevin W. Woodruff
        Ron: I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of Cyprian, Treatise 1 On the Unity of the Church section 6. In my copy of the Ante
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 26, 1997
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          Ron:
          I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of
          Cyprian, Treatise 1 "On the Unity of the Church" section 6. In my copy of
          the Ante Nicene Fathers this Volume 5 page 423, bottom of left-hand column.

          Incidentally, IMHO the best discussion of the comma is by Father Raymond
          Brown in his Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine Epistles pages 775-787

          Hope this helps

          Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
          Library Director/Reference Librarian
          Cierpke Memorial Library
          Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
          1815 Union Ave.
          Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
          United States of America
          423/493-4252 (office)
          423/698-9447 (home)
          423/493-4497 (FAX)
          Cierpke@... (preferred)
          kwoodruf@... (alternate)
          http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
        • James J. Cate
          ... At: http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers/ Jeff Cate Assoc. Prof. of Christian Studies California Baptist College
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
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            ><<the Ante-Nicene Fathers>>
            >
            >Is this available on line anywhere, do you know?
            >
            >Guy Story Brown, Dallas
            >storybrown@...
            >

            At:

            http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers/

            Jeff Cate
            Assoc. Prof. of Christian Studies
            California Baptist College
          • STORYBROWN@aol.com
            In a message dated 11/27/97 10.33.07 am, you wrote: Is this available on line anywhere, do you know? Guy Story Brown, Dallas
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
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              In a message dated 11/27/97 10.33.07 am, you wrote:

              <<the Ante-Nicene Fathers>>

              Is this available on line anywhere, do you know?

              Guy Story Brown, Dallas
              storybrown@...
            • Jim West
              ... here http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/christian-history.html jim ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West Adjunct Professor of Bible Quartz Hill
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
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                At 11:48 AM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
                >
                >In a message dated 11/27/97 10.33.07 am, you wrote:
                >
                ><<the Ante-Nicene Fathers>>
                >
                >Is this available on line anywhere, do you know?
                >
                >Guy Story Brown, Dallas
                >storybrown@...
                >
                >

                here

                http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/christian-history.html

                jim

                ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                Jim West
                Adjunct Professor of Bible
                Quartz Hill School of Theology

                jwest@...
              • Kevin W. Woodruff
                Ron: I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of Cyprian, Treatise 1 On the Unity of the Church section 6. In my copy of the Ante
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
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                  Ron:
                  I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of
                  Cyprian, Treatise 1 "On the Unity of the Church" section 6. In my copy of
                  the Ante Nicene Fathers this Volume 5 page 423, bottom of left-hand column.

                  Incidentally, IMHO the best discussion of the comma is by Father Raymond
                  Brown in his Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine Epistles pages 775-787
                  Chapter 6

                  The spouse of Christ cannot be defiled; she is uncorrupted and chaste. She
                  knows one home, with chaste modesty she guards the sanctity of one couch.
                  She keeps us for God; she assigns the children whom she has created to the
                  kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined with an
                  adulteress is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he who
                  has abandoned the Church arrive at the rewards of Christ. He is a
                  stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He cannot have God as a father
                  who does not have the Church as a mother. If whoever was outside the ark
                  of Noe was able to escape, he too who is outside. the Church escapes. The
                  Lord warns, saying: 'He who is not with me is against me, and who does not
                  gather with me, scatters.' He who breaks the peace and concord of Christ
                  acts against Christ; he who gathers somewhere outside the Church scatters
                  the Church of Christ. The Lord says: 'I and the Father are one.' And again
                  of the Father and Son and the Holy Spirit it is written: 'And these three
                  are one.' Does anyone believe that this unity which comes from divine
                  strength, which is closely connected with the divine sacraments, can be
                  broken asunder in the Church and be separated by the divisions of
                  colliding wills? He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of
                  God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life
                  and salvation.


                  Hope this helps

                  Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
                  Library Director/Reference Librarian
                  Cierpke Memorial Library
                  Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
                  1815 Union Ave.
                  Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
                  United States of America
                  423/493-4252 (office)
                  423/698-9447 (home)
                  423/493-4497 (FAX)
                  Cierpke@... (preferred)
                  kwoodruf@... (alternate)
                  http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
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