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Re: tc-list 1John 5:7

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  • Mark Johnson
    The main arguments made in this book are appeals to the indirect tradition ( Old Syriac, Old Latin and Latin patristic sources, among others ) and providential
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 21, 1997
      The main arguments made in this book are appeals to the indirect tradition
      ( Old Syriac, Old Latin and Latin patristic sources, among others ) and
      providential preservation. The problem with this approach is that to argue
      that the direct tradition ( greek MSS ) has become badly corrupt argues
      against providential preservation. The authour makes much of the fact that
      the Textus Receptus contains it, but not all editions of the TR do. In
      short, the Johannine Comma has little to recommend it, either textually or
      theologically.

      Mark Johnson

      ------------------------------

      From: PastorCHBC@...
      Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:52:18 -0500 (EST)
      Subject: Re: tc-list 1John 5:7

      Larry,

      I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist
      Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate
      Over I John 5:7-8 by Michael Maynard published by Comma Publications. P.
      O. Box 1625, Temple Az. 85281-1625. I you have access to this book I
      would
      like your evaluation of it.

      Gene Hughes
      PastorCHBC@...
      Wichita, Ks. 67207

      ------------------------------
    • Ronald L. Minton
      ... On page 352, Maynard claims the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not find a clear quote in Cyprian. Can anyone shed light on early church fathers and
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 22, 1997
        On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Mark Johnson wrote:
        > The main arguments made in this book are appeals to the indirect tradition
        > ( Old Syriac, Old Latin and Latin patristic sources, among others ) and
        > providential preservation. The problem with this approach is that to argue
        > that the direct tradition ( Greek MSS ) has become badly corrupt argues
        > against providential preservation. The author makes much of the fact that
        > the Textus Receptus contains it, but not all editions of the TR do. In
        > short, the Johannine Comma has little to recommend it, either textually or
        > theologically.

        > From: PastorCHBC@...
        > Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:52:18 -0500 (EST)
        > I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist
        > Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate
        > Over I John 5:7-8 by Michael Maynard published by Comma Publications. P.
        > O. Box 1625, Temple Az. 85281-1625. I you have access to this book I
        > would like your evaluation of it.
        > Gene Hughes


        On page 352, Maynard claims the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not
        find a clear quote in Cyprian. Can anyone shed light on early church
        fathers and the comma?

        --
        Prof. Ron Minton: rminton@... W (417)268-6053 H 833-9581
        Baptist Bible Graduate School 628 E. Kearney St. Springfield, MO 65803
      • Ronald L. Minton
        On page 352 of _A History of the Debate Over I John 5:7, Maynard claims the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not find a clear case of this in Cyprian. Can
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 26, 1997
          On page 352 of _A History of the Debate Over I John 5:7, Maynard claims
          the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not find a clear case of this in
          Cyprian. Can anyone help me identify who was the first to really quote
          the comma?

          --
          Prof. Ron Minton: rminton@... W (417)268-6053 H 833-9581
          Baptist Bible Graduate School 628 E. Kearney St. Springfield, MO 65803
        • Kevin W. Woodruff
          Ron: I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of Cyprian, Treatise 1 On the Unity of the Church section 6. In my copy of the Ante
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 26, 1997
            Ron:
            I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of
            Cyprian, Treatise 1 "On the Unity of the Church" section 6. In my copy of
            the Ante Nicene Fathers this Volume 5 page 423, bottom of left-hand column.

            Incidentally, IMHO the best discussion of the comma is by Father Raymond
            Brown in his Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine Epistles pages 775-787

            Hope this helps

            Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
            Library Director/Reference Librarian
            Cierpke Memorial Library
            Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
            1815 Union Ave.
            Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
            United States of America
            423/493-4252 (office)
            423/698-9447 (home)
            423/493-4497 (FAX)
            Cierpke@... (preferred)
            kwoodruf@... (alternate)
            http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
          • James J. Cate
            ... At: http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers/ Jeff Cate Assoc. Prof. of Christian Studies California Baptist College
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
              ><<the Ante-Nicene Fathers>>
              >
              >Is this available on line anywhere, do you know?
              >
              >Guy Story Brown, Dallas
              >storybrown@...
              >

              At:

              http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers/

              Jeff Cate
              Assoc. Prof. of Christian Studies
              California Baptist College
            • STORYBROWN@aol.com
              In a message dated 11/27/97 10.33.07 am, you wrote: Is this available on line anywhere, do you know? Guy Story Brown, Dallas
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
                In a message dated 11/27/97 10.33.07 am, you wrote:

                <<the Ante-Nicene Fathers>>

                Is this available on line anywhere, do you know?

                Guy Story Brown, Dallas
                storybrown@...
              • Jim West
                ... here http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/christian-history.html jim ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West Adjunct Professor of Bible Quartz Hill
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
                  At 11:48 AM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
                  >
                  >In a message dated 11/27/97 10.33.07 am, you wrote:
                  >
                  ><<the Ante-Nicene Fathers>>
                  >
                  >Is this available on line anywhere, do you know?
                  >
                  >Guy Story Brown, Dallas
                  >storybrown@...
                  >
                  >

                  here

                  http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/christian-history.html

                  jim

                  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                  Jim West
                  Adjunct Professor of Bible
                  Quartz Hill School of Theology

                  jwest@...
                • Kevin W. Woodruff
                  Ron: I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of Cyprian, Treatise 1 On the Unity of the Church section 6. In my copy of the Ante
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
                    Ron:
                    I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of
                    Cyprian, Treatise 1 "On the Unity of the Church" section 6. In my copy of
                    the Ante Nicene Fathers this Volume 5 page 423, bottom of left-hand column.

                    Incidentally, IMHO the best discussion of the comma is by Father Raymond
                    Brown in his Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine Epistles pages 775-787
                    Chapter 6

                    The spouse of Christ cannot be defiled; she is uncorrupted and chaste. She
                    knows one home, with chaste modesty she guards the sanctity of one couch.
                    She keeps us for God; she assigns the children whom she has created to the
                    kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined with an
                    adulteress is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he who
                    has abandoned the Church arrive at the rewards of Christ. He is a
                    stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He cannot have God as a father
                    who does not have the Church as a mother. If whoever was outside the ark
                    of Noe was able to escape, he too who is outside. the Church escapes. The
                    Lord warns, saying: 'He who is not with me is against me, and who does not
                    gather with me, scatters.' He who breaks the peace and concord of Christ
                    acts against Christ; he who gathers somewhere outside the Church scatters
                    the Church of Christ. The Lord says: 'I and the Father are one.' And again
                    of the Father and Son and the Holy Spirit it is written: 'And these three
                    are one.' Does anyone believe that this unity which comes from divine
                    strength, which is closely connected with the divine sacraments, can be
                    broken asunder in the Church and be separated by the divisions of
                    colliding wills? He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of
                    God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life
                    and salvation.


                    Hope this helps

                    Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
                    Library Director/Reference Librarian
                    Cierpke Memorial Library
                    Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
                    1815 Union Ave.
                    Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
                    United States of America
                    423/493-4252 (office)
                    423/698-9447 (home)
                    423/493-4497 (FAX)
                    Cierpke@... (preferred)
                    kwoodruf@... (alternate)
                    http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
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