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Re: tc-list 1John 5:7

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  • PastorCHBC@aol.com
    Larry, I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 14, 1997
      Larry,

      I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist
      Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate
      Over I John 5:7-8 by Michael Maynard published by Comma Publications. P. O.
      Box 1625, Temple Az. 85281-1625. I you have access to this book I would
      like your evaluation of it.

      Gene Hughes
      PastorCHBC@...
      Wichita, Ks. 67207
    • James R. Adair
      ... The tc-list archives are now also available in a very usable format at http://findmail.com/listsaver/tc-list. The archive currently goes back to December
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 17, 1997
        On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, lakr wrote:

        > I remember a discussion awhile back on the issues surrounding
        > 1 John 5:7 on this list, but a search for that verse in
        > the archives came up with no matches. Does anyone know
        > if that discussion is still active in the archive (the one
        > on www.reference.com only goes back to July 97.)

        The tc-list archives are now also available in a very usable format at
        http://findmail.com/listsaver/tc-list. The archive currently goes back to
        December 1996, but I hope that earlier archives will soon be available
        there as well. In the meantime, remember that you can request specific
        months from the majordomo archive by sending the message "get tc-list
        tc-list.yymm" (where yymm is year and month, e.g., tc-list.9604) to
        majordomo@.... For those who would like to download
        and search the entire archive, I've made it available at
        ftp://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu/pub/openhouse/tc-list (the archive is
        complete through the end of October). The files at this ftp site will be
        updated monthly. My search of the archives (searching for "John 5:7" and
        "Jn 5:7" then omitting references to the gospel [to account for 1 John
        5:7, 1John 5:7, I John 5:7, etc.]) found the verse mentioned in
        tc-list.9601, tc-list.9608, tc-list.9706, and tc-list.9709.

        Jimmy Adair, Listowner, TC-List
        Manager of Information Technology Services, Scholars Press
        and
        Managing Editor of TELA, the Scholars Press World Wide Web Site
        -------------> http://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu <--------------
      • Mark Johnson
        The main arguments made in this book are appeals to the indirect tradition ( Old Syriac, Old Latin and Latin patristic sources, among others ) and providential
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 21, 1997
          The main arguments made in this book are appeals to the indirect tradition
          ( Old Syriac, Old Latin and Latin patristic sources, among others ) and
          providential preservation. The problem with this approach is that to argue
          that the direct tradition ( greek MSS ) has become badly corrupt argues
          against providential preservation. The authour makes much of the fact that
          the Textus Receptus contains it, but not all editions of the TR do. In
          short, the Johannine Comma has little to recommend it, either textually or
          theologically.

          Mark Johnson

          ------------------------------

          From: PastorCHBC@...
          Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:52:18 -0500 (EST)
          Subject: Re: tc-list 1John 5:7

          Larry,

          I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist
          Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate
          Over I John 5:7-8 by Michael Maynard published by Comma Publications. P.
          O. Box 1625, Temple Az. 85281-1625. I you have access to this book I
          would
          like your evaluation of it.

          Gene Hughes
          PastorCHBC@...
          Wichita, Ks. 67207

          ------------------------------
        • Ronald L. Minton
          ... On page 352, Maynard claims the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not find a clear quote in Cyprian. Can anyone shed light on early church fathers and
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 22, 1997
            On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Mark Johnson wrote:
            > The main arguments made in this book are appeals to the indirect tradition
            > ( Old Syriac, Old Latin and Latin patristic sources, among others ) and
            > providential preservation. The problem with this approach is that to argue
            > that the direct tradition ( Greek MSS ) has become badly corrupt argues
            > against providential preservation. The author makes much of the fact that
            > the Textus Receptus contains it, but not all editions of the TR do. In
            > short, the Johannine Comma has little to recommend it, either textually or
            > theologically.

            > From: PastorCHBC@...
            > Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:52:18 -0500 (EST)
            > I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist
            > Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate
            > Over I John 5:7-8 by Michael Maynard published by Comma Publications. P.
            > O. Box 1625, Temple Az. 85281-1625. I you have access to this book I
            > would like your evaluation of it.
            > Gene Hughes


            On page 352, Maynard claims the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not
            find a clear quote in Cyprian. Can anyone shed light on early church
            fathers and the comma?

            --
            Prof. Ron Minton: rminton@... W (417)268-6053 H 833-9581
            Baptist Bible Graduate School 628 E. Kearney St. Springfield, MO 65803
          • Ronald L. Minton
            On page 352 of _A History of the Debate Over I John 5:7, Maynard claims the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not find a clear case of this in Cyprian. Can
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 26, 1997
              On page 352 of _A History of the Debate Over I John 5:7, Maynard claims
              the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not find a clear case of this in
              Cyprian. Can anyone help me identify who was the first to really quote
              the comma?

              --
              Prof. Ron Minton: rminton@... W (417)268-6053 H 833-9581
              Baptist Bible Graduate School 628 E. Kearney St. Springfield, MO 65803
            • Kevin W. Woodruff
              Ron: I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of Cyprian, Treatise 1 On the Unity of the Church section 6. In my copy of the Ante
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 26, 1997
                Ron:
                I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of
                Cyprian, Treatise 1 "On the Unity of the Church" section 6. In my copy of
                the Ante Nicene Fathers this Volume 5 page 423, bottom of left-hand column.

                Incidentally, IMHO the best discussion of the comma is by Father Raymond
                Brown in his Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine Epistles pages 775-787

                Hope this helps

                Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
                Library Director/Reference Librarian
                Cierpke Memorial Library
                Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
                1815 Union Ave.
                Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
                United States of America
                423/493-4252 (office)
                423/698-9447 (home)
                423/493-4497 (FAX)
                Cierpke@... (preferred)
                kwoodruf@... (alternate)
                http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
              • James J. Cate
                ... At: http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers/ Jeff Cate Assoc. Prof. of Christian Studies California Baptist College
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
                  ><<the Ante-Nicene Fathers>>
                  >
                  >Is this available on line anywhere, do you know?
                  >
                  >Guy Story Brown, Dallas
                  >storybrown@...
                  >

                  At:

                  http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers/

                  Jeff Cate
                  Assoc. Prof. of Christian Studies
                  California Baptist College
                • STORYBROWN@aol.com
                  In a message dated 11/27/97 10.33.07 am, you wrote: Is this available on line anywhere, do you know? Guy Story Brown, Dallas
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
                    In a message dated 11/27/97 10.33.07 am, you wrote:

                    <<the Ante-Nicene Fathers>>

                    Is this available on line anywhere, do you know?

                    Guy Story Brown, Dallas
                    storybrown@...
                  • Jim West
                    ... here http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/christian-history.html jim ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West Adjunct Professor of Bible Quartz Hill
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
                      At 11:48 AM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
                      >
                      >In a message dated 11/27/97 10.33.07 am, you wrote:
                      >
                      ><<the Ante-Nicene Fathers>>
                      >
                      >Is this available on line anywhere, do you know?
                      >
                      >Guy Story Brown, Dallas
                      >storybrown@...
                      >
                      >

                      here

                      http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/christian-history.html

                      jim

                      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                      Jim West
                      Adjunct Professor of Bible
                      Quartz Hill School of Theology

                      jwest@...
                    • Kevin W. Woodruff
                      Ron: I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of Cyprian, Treatise 1 On the Unity of the Church section 6. In my copy of the Ante
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
                        Ron:
                        I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of
                        Cyprian, Treatise 1 "On the Unity of the Church" section 6. In my copy of
                        the Ante Nicene Fathers this Volume 5 page 423, bottom of left-hand column.

                        Incidentally, IMHO the best discussion of the comma is by Father Raymond
                        Brown in his Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine Epistles pages 775-787
                        Chapter 6

                        The spouse of Christ cannot be defiled; she is uncorrupted and chaste. She
                        knows one home, with chaste modesty she guards the sanctity of one couch.
                        She keeps us for God; she assigns the children whom she has created to the
                        kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined with an
                        adulteress is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he who
                        has abandoned the Church arrive at the rewards of Christ. He is a
                        stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He cannot have God as a father
                        who does not have the Church as a mother. If whoever was outside the ark
                        of Noe was able to escape, he too who is outside. the Church escapes. The
                        Lord warns, saying: 'He who is not with me is against me, and who does not
                        gather with me, scatters.' He who breaks the peace and concord of Christ
                        acts against Christ; he who gathers somewhere outside the Church scatters
                        the Church of Christ. The Lord says: 'I and the Father are one.' And again
                        of the Father and Son and the Holy Spirit it is written: 'And these three
                        are one.' Does anyone believe that this unity which comes from divine
                        strength, which is closely connected with the divine sacraments, can be
                        broken asunder in the Church and be separated by the divisions of
                        colliding wills? He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of
                        God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life
                        and salvation.


                        Hope this helps

                        Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
                        Library Director/Reference Librarian
                        Cierpke Memorial Library
                        Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
                        1815 Union Ave.
                        Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
                        United States of America
                        423/493-4252 (office)
                        423/698-9447 (home)
                        423/493-4497 (FAX)
                        Cierpke@... (preferred)
                        kwoodruf@... (alternate)
                        http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
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