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Re: tc-list Probability and Text Types

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  • Vincent Broman
    ... Various metrics have been computed on samples for classification, but no one has computed probability distributions for those statistics, that I ve heard
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 4, 1997
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      micah68@... asked:
      > Has any statistical analysis been done to test the hypothesis that the
      > various text types comprise one statistical distribution as opposed to
      > several?

      Various metrics have been computed on samples for classification,
      but no one has computed probability distributions for those statistics,
      that I've heard of.

      > Have any statistical tests in general been performed on the Biblical MSS?

      People have computed interesting statistical quantities from MSS,
      but the tests performed seem to be always heuristic.


      Vincent Broman San Diego, California, USA
      Email: broman at sd.znet.com (home) or spawar.navy.mil or nosc.mil (work)
      Phone: +1 619 284 3775 Starship: 32d42m22s N 117d14m13s W
      === PGP protected mail preferred. For public key finger me at np.nosc.mil ===

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    • lakr
      Dear TC-er s I remember a discussion awhile back on the issues surrounding 1 John 5:7 on this list, but a search for that verse in the archives came up with no
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 14, 1997
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        Dear TC-er's

        I remember a discussion awhile back on the issues surrounding
        1 John 5:7 on this list, but a search for that verse in
        the archives came up with no matches. Does anyone know
        if that discussion is still active in the archive (the one
        on www.reference.com only goes back to July 97.)

        Thanks in advance,
        Larry Kruper
      • PastorCHBC@aol.com
        Larry, I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 14, 1997
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          Larry,

          I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist
          Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate
          Over I John 5:7-8 by Michael Maynard published by Comma Publications. P. O.
          Box 1625, Temple Az. 85281-1625. I you have access to this book I would
          like your evaluation of it.

          Gene Hughes
          PastorCHBC@...
          Wichita, Ks. 67207
        • James R. Adair
          ... The tc-list archives are now also available in a very usable format at http://findmail.com/listsaver/tc-list. The archive currently goes back to December
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 17, 1997
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            On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, lakr wrote:

            > I remember a discussion awhile back on the issues surrounding
            > 1 John 5:7 on this list, but a search for that verse in
            > the archives came up with no matches. Does anyone know
            > if that discussion is still active in the archive (the one
            > on www.reference.com only goes back to July 97.)

            The tc-list archives are now also available in a very usable format at
            http://findmail.com/listsaver/tc-list. The archive currently goes back to
            December 1996, but I hope that earlier archives will soon be available
            there as well. In the meantime, remember that you can request specific
            months from the majordomo archive by sending the message "get tc-list
            tc-list.yymm" (where yymm is year and month, e.g., tc-list.9604) to
            majordomo@.... For those who would like to download
            and search the entire archive, I've made it available at
            ftp://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu/pub/openhouse/tc-list (the archive is
            complete through the end of October). The files at this ftp site will be
            updated monthly. My search of the archives (searching for "John 5:7" and
            "Jn 5:7" then omitting references to the gospel [to account for 1 John
            5:7, 1John 5:7, I John 5:7, etc.]) found the verse mentioned in
            tc-list.9601, tc-list.9608, tc-list.9706, and tc-list.9709.

            Jimmy Adair, Listowner, TC-List
            Manager of Information Technology Services, Scholars Press
            and
            Managing Editor of TELA, the Scholars Press World Wide Web Site
            -------------> http://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu <--------------
          • Mark Johnson
            The main arguments made in this book are appeals to the indirect tradition ( Old Syriac, Old Latin and Latin patristic sources, among others ) and providential
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 21, 1997
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              The main arguments made in this book are appeals to the indirect tradition
              ( Old Syriac, Old Latin and Latin patristic sources, among others ) and
              providential preservation. The problem with this approach is that to argue
              that the direct tradition ( greek MSS ) has become badly corrupt argues
              against providential preservation. The authour makes much of the fact that
              the Textus Receptus contains it, but not all editions of the TR do. In
              short, the Johannine Comma has little to recommend it, either textually or
              theologically.

              Mark Johnson

              ------------------------------

              From: PastorCHBC@...
              Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:52:18 -0500 (EST)
              Subject: Re: tc-list 1John 5:7

              Larry,

              I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist
              Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate
              Over I John 5:7-8 by Michael Maynard published by Comma Publications. P.
              O. Box 1625, Temple Az. 85281-1625. I you have access to this book I
              would
              like your evaluation of it.

              Gene Hughes
              PastorCHBC@...
              Wichita, Ks. 67207

              ------------------------------
            • Ronald L. Minton
              ... On page 352, Maynard claims the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not find a clear quote in Cyprian. Can anyone shed light on early church fathers and
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 22, 1997
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                On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Mark Johnson wrote:
                > The main arguments made in this book are appeals to the indirect tradition
                > ( Old Syriac, Old Latin and Latin patristic sources, among others ) and
                > providential preservation. The problem with this approach is that to argue
                > that the direct tradition ( Greek MSS ) has become badly corrupt argues
                > against providential preservation. The author makes much of the fact that
                > the Textus Receptus contains it, but not all editions of the TR do. In
                > short, the Johannine Comma has little to recommend it, either textually or
                > theologically.

                > From: PastorCHBC@...
                > Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:52:18 -0500 (EST)
                > I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist
                > Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate
                > Over I John 5:7-8 by Michael Maynard published by Comma Publications. P.
                > O. Box 1625, Temple Az. 85281-1625. I you have access to this book I
                > would like your evaluation of it.
                > Gene Hughes


                On page 352, Maynard claims the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not
                find a clear quote in Cyprian. Can anyone shed light on early church
                fathers and the comma?

                --
                Prof. Ron Minton: rminton@... W (417)268-6053 H 833-9581
                Baptist Bible Graduate School 628 E. Kearney St. Springfield, MO 65803
              • Ronald L. Minton
                On page 352 of _A History of the Debate Over I John 5:7, Maynard claims the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not find a clear case of this in Cyprian. Can
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 26, 1997
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                  On page 352 of _A History of the Debate Over I John 5:7, Maynard claims
                  the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not find a clear case of this in
                  Cyprian. Can anyone help me identify who was the first to really quote
                  the comma?

                  --
                  Prof. Ron Minton: rminton@... W (417)268-6053 H 833-9581
                  Baptist Bible Graduate School 628 E. Kearney St. Springfield, MO 65803
                • Kevin W. Woodruff
                  Ron: I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of Cyprian, Treatise 1 On the Unity of the Church section 6. In my copy of the Ante
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 26, 1997
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                    Ron:
                    I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of
                    Cyprian, Treatise 1 "On the Unity of the Church" section 6. In my copy of
                    the Ante Nicene Fathers this Volume 5 page 423, bottom of left-hand column.

                    Incidentally, IMHO the best discussion of the comma is by Father Raymond
                    Brown in his Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine Epistles pages 775-787

                    Hope this helps

                    Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
                    Library Director/Reference Librarian
                    Cierpke Memorial Library
                    Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
                    1815 Union Ave.
                    Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
                    United States of America
                    423/493-4252 (office)
                    423/698-9447 (home)
                    423/493-4497 (FAX)
                    Cierpke@... (preferred)
                    kwoodruf@... (alternate)
                    http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
                  • James J. Cate
                    ... At: http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers/ Jeff Cate Assoc. Prof. of Christian Studies California Baptist College
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
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                      ><<the Ante-Nicene Fathers>>
                      >
                      >Is this available on line anywhere, do you know?
                      >
                      >Guy Story Brown, Dallas
                      >storybrown@...
                      >

                      At:

                      http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers/

                      Jeff Cate
                      Assoc. Prof. of Christian Studies
                      California Baptist College
                    • STORYBROWN@aol.com
                      In a message dated 11/27/97 10.33.07 am, you wrote: Is this available on line anywhere, do you know? Guy Story Brown, Dallas
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
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                        In a message dated 11/27/97 10.33.07 am, you wrote:

                        <<the Ante-Nicene Fathers>>

                        Is this available on line anywhere, do you know?

                        Guy Story Brown, Dallas
                        storybrown@...
                      • Jim West
                        ... here http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/christian-history.html jim ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West Adjunct Professor of Bible Quartz Hill
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
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                          At 11:48 AM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
                          >
                          >In a message dated 11/27/97 10.33.07 am, you wrote:
                          >
                          ><<the Ante-Nicene Fathers>>
                          >
                          >Is this available on line anywhere, do you know?
                          >
                          >Guy Story Brown, Dallas
                          >storybrown@...
                          >
                          >

                          here

                          http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/christian-history.html

                          jim

                          ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                          Jim West
                          Adjunct Professor of Bible
                          Quartz Hill School of Theology

                          jwest@...
                        • Kevin W. Woodruff
                          Ron: I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of Cyprian, Treatise 1 On the Unity of the Church section 6. In my copy of the Ante
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
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                            Ron:
                            I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of
                            Cyprian, Treatise 1 "On the Unity of the Church" section 6. In my copy of
                            the Ante Nicene Fathers this Volume 5 page 423, bottom of left-hand column.

                            Incidentally, IMHO the best discussion of the comma is by Father Raymond
                            Brown in his Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine Epistles pages 775-787
                            Chapter 6

                            The spouse of Christ cannot be defiled; she is uncorrupted and chaste. She
                            knows one home, with chaste modesty she guards the sanctity of one couch.
                            She keeps us for God; she assigns the children whom she has created to the
                            kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined with an
                            adulteress is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he who
                            has abandoned the Church arrive at the rewards of Christ. He is a
                            stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He cannot have God as a father
                            who does not have the Church as a mother. If whoever was outside the ark
                            of Noe was able to escape, he too who is outside. the Church escapes. The
                            Lord warns, saying: 'He who is not with me is against me, and who does not
                            gather with me, scatters.' He who breaks the peace and concord of Christ
                            acts against Christ; he who gathers somewhere outside the Church scatters
                            the Church of Christ. The Lord says: 'I and the Father are one.' And again
                            of the Father and Son and the Holy Spirit it is written: 'And these three
                            are one.' Does anyone believe that this unity which comes from divine
                            strength, which is closely connected with the divine sacraments, can be
                            broken asunder in the Church and be separated by the divisions of
                            colliding wills? He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of
                            God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life
                            and salvation.


                            Hope this helps

                            Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
                            Library Director/Reference Librarian
                            Cierpke Memorial Library
                            Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
                            1815 Union Ave.
                            Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
                            United States of America
                            423/493-4252 (office)
                            423/698-9447 (home)
                            423/493-4497 (FAX)
                            Cierpke@... (preferred)
                            kwoodruf@... (alternate)
                            http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
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