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Re: tc-list Probability and Text Types

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  • Robert B. Waltz
    ... I think we need some clarification here. What do you mean by statistical distribution ? Measured by agreement with some particular manuscript? Or do you
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 4, 1997
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      On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, "Mark Johnson" <micah68@...> wrote:

      >Has any statistical analysis been done to test the hypothesis that the
      >various text types comprise one statistical distribution as opposed to
      >several?
      >
      >Have any statistical tests in general been performed on the Biblical MSS?

      I think we need some clarification here. What do you mean by "statistical
      distribution"? Measured by agreement with some particular manuscript? Or
      do you want to compare all manuscripts against all manuscripts? (Or,
      more realistically, some set against itself?)

      There have been studies done which use statistics -- the obvious
      examples being Colwell and Tune and Kurt Aland's Thousand Readings.
      As far as sophisticated statistical analysis of the results --
      there is nothing. We don't even have an adequate definition of
      the methods needed. Naturally, I hope to cure that. :-) Overall,
      however, there hasn't been much interest.

      I realize this isn't much of an answer. If you'll try to state the
      problem more precisely, I'll try to give a better response.

      -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

      Robert B. Waltz
      waltzmn@...

      Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism?
      Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn
      (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism)
    • Vincent Broman
      ... Various metrics have been computed on samples for classification, but no one has computed probability distributions for those statistics, that I ve heard
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 4, 1997
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        -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

        micah68@... asked:
        > Has any statistical analysis been done to test the hypothesis that the
        > various text types comprise one statistical distribution as opposed to
        > several?

        Various metrics have been computed on samples for classification,
        but no one has computed probability distributions for those statistics,
        that I've heard of.

        > Have any statistical tests in general been performed on the Biblical MSS?

        People have computed interesting statistical quantities from MSS,
        but the tests performed seem to be always heuristic.


        Vincent Broman San Diego, California, USA
        Email: broman at sd.znet.com (home) or spawar.navy.mil or nosc.mil (work)
        Phone: +1 619 284 3775 Starship: 32d42m22s N 117d14m13s W
        === PGP protected mail preferred. For public key finger me at np.nosc.mil ===

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      • lakr
        Dear TC-er s I remember a discussion awhile back on the issues surrounding 1 John 5:7 on this list, but a search for that verse in the archives came up with no
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 14, 1997
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          Dear TC-er's

          I remember a discussion awhile back on the issues surrounding
          1 John 5:7 on this list, but a search for that verse in
          the archives came up with no matches. Does anyone know
          if that discussion is still active in the archive (the one
          on www.reference.com only goes back to July 97.)

          Thanks in advance,
          Larry Kruper
        • PastorCHBC@aol.com
          Larry, I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 14, 1997
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            Larry,

            I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist
            Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate
            Over I John 5:7-8 by Michael Maynard published by Comma Publications. P. O.
            Box 1625, Temple Az. 85281-1625. I you have access to this book I would
            like your evaluation of it.

            Gene Hughes
            PastorCHBC@...
            Wichita, Ks. 67207
          • James R. Adair
            ... The tc-list archives are now also available in a very usable format at http://findmail.com/listsaver/tc-list. The archive currently goes back to December
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 17, 1997
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              On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, lakr wrote:

              > I remember a discussion awhile back on the issues surrounding
              > 1 John 5:7 on this list, but a search for that verse in
              > the archives came up with no matches. Does anyone know
              > if that discussion is still active in the archive (the one
              > on www.reference.com only goes back to July 97.)

              The tc-list archives are now also available in a very usable format at
              http://findmail.com/listsaver/tc-list. The archive currently goes back to
              December 1996, but I hope that earlier archives will soon be available
              there as well. In the meantime, remember that you can request specific
              months from the majordomo archive by sending the message "get tc-list
              tc-list.yymm" (where yymm is year and month, e.g., tc-list.9604) to
              majordomo@.... For those who would like to download
              and search the entire archive, I've made it available at
              ftp://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu/pub/openhouse/tc-list (the archive is
              complete through the end of October). The files at this ftp site will be
              updated monthly. My search of the archives (searching for "John 5:7" and
              "Jn 5:7" then omitting references to the gospel [to account for 1 John
              5:7, 1John 5:7, I John 5:7, etc.]) found the verse mentioned in
              tc-list.9601, tc-list.9608, tc-list.9706, and tc-list.9709.

              Jimmy Adair, Listowner, TC-List
              Manager of Information Technology Services, Scholars Press
              and
              Managing Editor of TELA, the Scholars Press World Wide Web Site
              -------------> http://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu <--------------
            • Mark Johnson
              The main arguments made in this book are appeals to the indirect tradition ( Old Syriac, Old Latin and Latin patristic sources, among others ) and providential
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 21, 1997
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                The main arguments made in this book are appeals to the indirect tradition
                ( Old Syriac, Old Latin and Latin patristic sources, among others ) and
                providential preservation. The problem with this approach is that to argue
                that the direct tradition ( greek MSS ) has become badly corrupt argues
                against providential preservation. The authour makes much of the fact that
                the Textus Receptus contains it, but not all editions of the TR do. In
                short, the Johannine Comma has little to recommend it, either textually or
                theologically.

                Mark Johnson

                ------------------------------

                From: PastorCHBC@...
                Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:52:18 -0500 (EST)
                Subject: Re: tc-list 1John 5:7

                Larry,

                I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist
                Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate
                Over I John 5:7-8 by Michael Maynard published by Comma Publications. P.
                O. Box 1625, Temple Az. 85281-1625. I you have access to this book I
                would
                like your evaluation of it.

                Gene Hughes
                PastorCHBC@...
                Wichita, Ks. 67207

                ------------------------------
              • Ronald L. Minton
                ... On page 352, Maynard claims the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not find a clear quote in Cyprian. Can anyone shed light on early church fathers and
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 22, 1997
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                  On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Mark Johnson wrote:
                  > The main arguments made in this book are appeals to the indirect tradition
                  > ( Old Syriac, Old Latin and Latin patristic sources, among others ) and
                  > providential preservation. The problem with this approach is that to argue
                  > that the direct tradition ( Greek MSS ) has become badly corrupt argues
                  > against providential preservation. The author makes much of the fact that
                  > the Textus Receptus contains it, but not all editions of the TR do. In
                  > short, the Johannine Comma has little to recommend it, either textually or
                  > theologically.

                  > From: PastorCHBC@...
                  > Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:52:18 -0500 (EST)
                  > I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist
                  > Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate
                  > Over I John 5:7-8 by Michael Maynard published by Comma Publications. P.
                  > O. Box 1625, Temple Az. 85281-1625. I you have access to this book I
                  > would like your evaluation of it.
                  > Gene Hughes


                  On page 352, Maynard claims the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not
                  find a clear quote in Cyprian. Can anyone shed light on early church
                  fathers and the comma?

                  --
                  Prof. Ron Minton: rminton@... W (417)268-6053 H 833-9581
                  Baptist Bible Graduate School 628 E. Kearney St. Springfield, MO 65803
                • Ronald L. Minton
                  On page 352 of _A History of the Debate Over I John 5:7, Maynard claims the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not find a clear case of this in Cyprian. Can
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 26, 1997
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                    On page 352 of _A History of the Debate Over I John 5:7, Maynard claims
                    the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not find a clear case of this in
                    Cyprian. Can anyone help me identify who was the first to really quote
                    the comma?

                    --
                    Prof. Ron Minton: rminton@... W (417)268-6053 H 833-9581
                    Baptist Bible Graduate School 628 E. Kearney St. Springfield, MO 65803
                  • Kevin W. Woodruff
                    Ron: I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of Cyprian, Treatise 1 On the Unity of the Church section 6. In my copy of the Ante
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 26, 1997
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                      Ron:
                      I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of
                      Cyprian, Treatise 1 "On the Unity of the Church" section 6. In my copy of
                      the Ante Nicene Fathers this Volume 5 page 423, bottom of left-hand column.

                      Incidentally, IMHO the best discussion of the comma is by Father Raymond
                      Brown in his Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine Epistles pages 775-787

                      Hope this helps

                      Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
                      Library Director/Reference Librarian
                      Cierpke Memorial Library
                      Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
                      1815 Union Ave.
                      Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
                      United States of America
                      423/493-4252 (office)
                      423/698-9447 (home)
                      423/493-4497 (FAX)
                      Cierpke@... (preferred)
                      kwoodruf@... (alternate)
                      http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
                    • James J. Cate
                      ... At: http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers/ Jeff Cate Assoc. Prof. of Christian Studies California Baptist College
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
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                        ><<the Ante-Nicene Fathers>>
                        >
                        >Is this available on line anywhere, do you know?
                        >
                        >Guy Story Brown, Dallas
                        >storybrown@...
                        >

                        At:

                        http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers/

                        Jeff Cate
                        Assoc. Prof. of Christian Studies
                        California Baptist College
                      • STORYBROWN@aol.com
                        In a message dated 11/27/97 10.33.07 am, you wrote: Is this available on line anywhere, do you know? Guy Story Brown, Dallas
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
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                          In a message dated 11/27/97 10.33.07 am, you wrote:

                          <<the Ante-Nicene Fathers>>

                          Is this available on line anywhere, do you know?

                          Guy Story Brown, Dallas
                          storybrown@...
                        • Jim West
                          ... here http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/christian-history.html jim ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West Adjunct Professor of Bible Quartz Hill
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
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                            At 11:48 AM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
                            >
                            >In a message dated 11/27/97 10.33.07 am, you wrote:
                            >
                            ><<the Ante-Nicene Fathers>>
                            >
                            >Is this available on line anywhere, do you know?
                            >
                            >Guy Story Brown, Dallas
                            >storybrown@...
                            >
                            >

                            here

                            http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/christian-history.html

                            jim

                            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                            Jim West
                            Adjunct Professor of Bible
                            Quartz Hill School of Theology

                            jwest@...
                          • Kevin W. Woodruff
                            Ron: I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of Cyprian, Treatise 1 On the Unity of the Church section 6. In my copy of the Ante
                            Message 13 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
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                              Ron:
                              I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of
                              Cyprian, Treatise 1 "On the Unity of the Church" section 6. In my copy of
                              the Ante Nicene Fathers this Volume 5 page 423, bottom of left-hand column.

                              Incidentally, IMHO the best discussion of the comma is by Father Raymond
                              Brown in his Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine Epistles pages 775-787
                              Chapter 6

                              The spouse of Christ cannot be defiled; she is uncorrupted and chaste. She
                              knows one home, with chaste modesty she guards the sanctity of one couch.
                              She keeps us for God; she assigns the children whom she has created to the
                              kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined with an
                              adulteress is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he who
                              has abandoned the Church arrive at the rewards of Christ. He is a
                              stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He cannot have God as a father
                              who does not have the Church as a mother. If whoever was outside the ark
                              of Noe was able to escape, he too who is outside. the Church escapes. The
                              Lord warns, saying: 'He who is not with me is against me, and who does not
                              gather with me, scatters.' He who breaks the peace and concord of Christ
                              acts against Christ; he who gathers somewhere outside the Church scatters
                              the Church of Christ. The Lord says: 'I and the Father are one.' And again
                              of the Father and Son and the Holy Spirit it is written: 'And these three
                              are one.' Does anyone believe that this unity which comes from divine
                              strength, which is closely connected with the divine sacraments, can be
                              broken asunder in the Church and be separated by the divisions of
                              colliding wills? He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of
                              God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life
                              and salvation.


                              Hope this helps

                              Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
                              Library Director/Reference Librarian
                              Cierpke Memorial Library
                              Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
                              1815 Union Ave.
                              Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
                              United States of America
                              423/493-4252 (office)
                              423/698-9447 (home)
                              423/493-4497 (FAX)
                              Cierpke@... (preferred)
                              kwoodruf@... (alternate)
                              http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
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