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tc-list Probability and Text Types

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  • Mark Johnson
    Has any statistical analysis been done to test the hypothesis that the various text types comprise one statistical distribution as opposed to several? Have any
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 4, 1997
      Has any statistical analysis been done to test the hypothesis that the
      various text types comprise one statistical distribution as opposed to
      several?

      Have any statistical tests in general been performed on the Biblical MSS?

      Mark Johnson
    • Robert B. Waltz
      ... I think we need some clarification here. What do you mean by statistical distribution ? Measured by agreement with some particular manuscript? Or do you
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 4, 1997
        On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, "Mark Johnson" <micah68@...> wrote:

        >Has any statistical analysis been done to test the hypothesis that the
        >various text types comprise one statistical distribution as opposed to
        >several?
        >
        >Have any statistical tests in general been performed on the Biblical MSS?

        I think we need some clarification here. What do you mean by "statistical
        distribution"? Measured by agreement with some particular manuscript? Or
        do you want to compare all manuscripts against all manuscripts? (Or,
        more realistically, some set against itself?)

        There have been studies done which use statistics -- the obvious
        examples being Colwell and Tune and Kurt Aland's Thousand Readings.
        As far as sophisticated statistical analysis of the results --
        there is nothing. We don't even have an adequate definition of
        the methods needed. Naturally, I hope to cure that. :-) Overall,
        however, there hasn't been much interest.

        I realize this isn't much of an answer. If you'll try to state the
        problem more precisely, I'll try to give a better response.

        -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

        Robert B. Waltz
        waltzmn@...

        Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism?
        Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn
        (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism)
      • Vincent Broman
        ... Various metrics have been computed on samples for classification, but no one has computed probability distributions for those statistics, that I ve heard
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 4, 1997
          -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

          micah68@... asked:
          > Has any statistical analysis been done to test the hypothesis that the
          > various text types comprise one statistical distribution as opposed to
          > several?

          Various metrics have been computed on samples for classification,
          but no one has computed probability distributions for those statistics,
          that I've heard of.

          > Have any statistical tests in general been performed on the Biblical MSS?

          People have computed interesting statistical quantities from MSS,
          but the tests performed seem to be always heuristic.


          Vincent Broman San Diego, California, USA
          Email: broman at sd.znet.com (home) or spawar.navy.mil or nosc.mil (work)
          Phone: +1 619 284 3775 Starship: 32d42m22s N 117d14m13s W
          === PGP protected mail preferred. For public key finger me at np.nosc.mil ===

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        • lakr
          Dear TC-er s I remember a discussion awhile back on the issues surrounding 1 John 5:7 on this list, but a search for that verse in the archives came up with no
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 14, 1997
            Dear TC-er's

            I remember a discussion awhile back on the issues surrounding
            1 John 5:7 on this list, but a search for that verse in
            the archives came up with no matches. Does anyone know
            if that discussion is still active in the archive (the one
            on www.reference.com only goes back to July 97.)

            Thanks in advance,
            Larry Kruper
          • PastorCHBC@aol.com
            Larry, I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 14, 1997
              Larry,

              I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist
              Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate
              Over I John 5:7-8 by Michael Maynard published by Comma Publications. P. O.
              Box 1625, Temple Az. 85281-1625. I you have access to this book I would
              like your evaluation of it.

              Gene Hughes
              PastorCHBC@...
              Wichita, Ks. 67207
            • James R. Adair
              ... The tc-list archives are now also available in a very usable format at http://findmail.com/listsaver/tc-list. The archive currently goes back to December
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 17, 1997
                On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, lakr wrote:

                > I remember a discussion awhile back on the issues surrounding
                > 1 John 5:7 on this list, but a search for that verse in
                > the archives came up with no matches. Does anyone know
                > if that discussion is still active in the archive (the one
                > on www.reference.com only goes back to July 97.)

                The tc-list archives are now also available in a very usable format at
                http://findmail.com/listsaver/tc-list. The archive currently goes back to
                December 1996, but I hope that earlier archives will soon be available
                there as well. In the meantime, remember that you can request specific
                months from the majordomo archive by sending the message "get tc-list
                tc-list.yymm" (where yymm is year and month, e.g., tc-list.9604) to
                majordomo@.... For those who would like to download
                and search the entire archive, I've made it available at
                ftp://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu/pub/openhouse/tc-list (the archive is
                complete through the end of October). The files at this ftp site will be
                updated monthly. My search of the archives (searching for "John 5:7" and
                "Jn 5:7" then omitting references to the gospel [to account for 1 John
                5:7, 1John 5:7, I John 5:7, etc.]) found the verse mentioned in
                tc-list.9601, tc-list.9608, tc-list.9706, and tc-list.9709.

                Jimmy Adair, Listowner, TC-List
                Manager of Information Technology Services, Scholars Press
                and
                Managing Editor of TELA, the Scholars Press World Wide Web Site
                -------------> http://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu <--------------
              • Mark Johnson
                The main arguments made in this book are appeals to the indirect tradition ( Old Syriac, Old Latin and Latin patristic sources, among others ) and providential
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 21, 1997
                  The main arguments made in this book are appeals to the indirect tradition
                  ( Old Syriac, Old Latin and Latin patristic sources, among others ) and
                  providential preservation. The problem with this approach is that to argue
                  that the direct tradition ( greek MSS ) has become badly corrupt argues
                  against providential preservation. The authour makes much of the fact that
                  the Textus Receptus contains it, but not all editions of the TR do. In
                  short, the Johannine Comma has little to recommend it, either textually or
                  theologically.

                  Mark Johnson

                  ------------------------------

                  From: PastorCHBC@...
                  Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:52:18 -0500 (EST)
                  Subject: Re: tc-list 1John 5:7

                  Larry,

                  I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist
                  Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate
                  Over I John 5:7-8 by Michael Maynard published by Comma Publications. P.
                  O. Box 1625, Temple Az. 85281-1625. I you have access to this book I
                  would
                  like your evaluation of it.

                  Gene Hughes
                  PastorCHBC@...
                  Wichita, Ks. 67207

                  ------------------------------
                • Ronald L. Minton
                  ... On page 352, Maynard claims the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not find a clear quote in Cyprian. Can anyone shed light on early church fathers and
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 22, 1997
                    On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Mark Johnson wrote:
                    > The main arguments made in this book are appeals to the indirect tradition
                    > ( Old Syriac, Old Latin and Latin patristic sources, among others ) and
                    > providential preservation. The problem with this approach is that to argue
                    > that the direct tradition ( Greek MSS ) has become badly corrupt argues
                    > against providential preservation. The author makes much of the fact that
                    > the Textus Receptus contains it, but not all editions of the TR do. In
                    > short, the Johannine Comma has little to recommend it, either textually or
                    > theologically.

                    > From: PastorCHBC@...
                    > Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:52:18 -0500 (EST)
                    > I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist
                    > Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate
                    > Over I John 5:7-8 by Michael Maynard published by Comma Publications. P.
                    > O. Box 1625, Temple Az. 85281-1625. I you have access to this book I
                    > would like your evaluation of it.
                    > Gene Hughes


                    On page 352, Maynard claims the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not
                    find a clear quote in Cyprian. Can anyone shed light on early church
                    fathers and the comma?

                    --
                    Prof. Ron Minton: rminton@... W (417)268-6053 H 833-9581
                    Baptist Bible Graduate School 628 E. Kearney St. Springfield, MO 65803
                  • Ronald L. Minton
                    On page 352 of _A History of the Debate Over I John 5:7, Maynard claims the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not find a clear case of this in Cyprian. Can
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 26, 1997
                      On page 352 of _A History of the Debate Over I John 5:7, Maynard claims
                      the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not find a clear case of this in
                      Cyprian. Can anyone help me identify who was the first to really quote
                      the comma?

                      --
                      Prof. Ron Minton: rminton@... W (417)268-6053 H 833-9581
                      Baptist Bible Graduate School 628 E. Kearney St. Springfield, MO 65803
                    • Kevin W. Woodruff
                      Ron: I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of Cyprian, Treatise 1 On the Unity of the Church section 6. In my copy of the Ante
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 26, 1997
                        Ron:
                        I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of
                        Cyprian, Treatise 1 "On the Unity of the Church" section 6. In my copy of
                        the Ante Nicene Fathers this Volume 5 page 423, bottom of left-hand column.

                        Incidentally, IMHO the best discussion of the comma is by Father Raymond
                        Brown in his Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine Epistles pages 775-787

                        Hope this helps

                        Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
                        Library Director/Reference Librarian
                        Cierpke Memorial Library
                        Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
                        1815 Union Ave.
                        Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
                        United States of America
                        423/493-4252 (office)
                        423/698-9447 (home)
                        423/493-4497 (FAX)
                        Cierpke@... (preferred)
                        kwoodruf@... (alternate)
                        http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
                      • James J. Cate
                        ... At: http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers/ Jeff Cate Assoc. Prof. of Christian Studies California Baptist College
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
                          ><<the Ante-Nicene Fathers>>
                          >
                          >Is this available on line anywhere, do you know?
                          >
                          >Guy Story Brown, Dallas
                          >storybrown@...
                          >

                          At:

                          http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers/

                          Jeff Cate
                          Assoc. Prof. of Christian Studies
                          California Baptist College
                        • STORYBROWN@aol.com
                          In a message dated 11/27/97 10.33.07 am, you wrote: Is this available on line anywhere, do you know? Guy Story Brown, Dallas
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
                            In a message dated 11/27/97 10.33.07 am, you wrote:

                            <<the Ante-Nicene Fathers>>

                            Is this available on line anywhere, do you know?

                            Guy Story Brown, Dallas
                            storybrown@...
                          • Jim West
                            ... here http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/christian-history.html jim ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West Adjunct Professor of Bible Quartz Hill
                            Message 13 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
                              At 11:48 AM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
                              >
                              >In a message dated 11/27/97 10.33.07 am, you wrote:
                              >
                              ><<the Ante-Nicene Fathers>>
                              >
                              >Is this available on line anywhere, do you know?
                              >
                              >Guy Story Brown, Dallas
                              >storybrown@...
                              >
                              >

                              here

                              http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/christian-history.html

                              jim

                              ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                              Jim West
                              Adjunct Professor of Bible
                              Quartz Hill School of Theology

                              jwest@...
                            • Kevin W. Woodruff
                              Ron: I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of Cyprian, Treatise 1 On the Unity of the Church section 6. In my copy of the Ante
                              Message 14 of 14 , Nov 27, 1997
                                Ron:
                                I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of
                                Cyprian, Treatise 1 "On the Unity of the Church" section 6. In my copy of
                                the Ante Nicene Fathers this Volume 5 page 423, bottom of left-hand column.

                                Incidentally, IMHO the best discussion of the comma is by Father Raymond
                                Brown in his Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine Epistles pages 775-787
                                Chapter 6

                                The spouse of Christ cannot be defiled; she is uncorrupted and chaste. She
                                knows one home, with chaste modesty she guards the sanctity of one couch.
                                She keeps us for God; she assigns the children whom she has created to the
                                kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined with an
                                adulteress is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he who
                                has abandoned the Church arrive at the rewards of Christ. He is a
                                stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He cannot have God as a father
                                who does not have the Church as a mother. If whoever was outside the ark
                                of Noe was able to escape, he too who is outside. the Church escapes. The
                                Lord warns, saying: 'He who is not with me is against me, and who does not
                                gather with me, scatters.' He who breaks the peace and concord of Christ
                                acts against Christ; he who gathers somewhere outside the Church scatters
                                the Church of Christ. The Lord says: 'I and the Father are one.' And again
                                of the Father and Son and the Holy Spirit it is written: 'And these three
                                are one.' Does anyone believe that this unity which comes from divine
                                strength, which is closely connected with the divine sacraments, can be
                                broken asunder in the Church and be separated by the divisions of
                                colliding wills? He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of
                                God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life
                                and salvation.


                                Hope this helps

                                Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div.
                                Library Director/Reference Librarian
                                Cierpke Memorial Library
                                Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary
                                1815 Union Ave.
                                Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404
                                United States of America
                                423/493-4252 (office)
                                423/698-9447 (home)
                                423/493-4497 (FAX)
                                Cierpke@... (preferred)
                                kwoodruf@... (alternate)
                                http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm
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