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Re: tc-list Re: P52

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  • Bart Ehrman
    A side-question. How have you arrived at 113 CE as the terminus a quo? -- Bart Ehrman, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 29, 1997
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      A side-question. How have you arrived at 113 CE as the terminus a quo?

      -- Bart Ehrman, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

      On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Jack Kilmon wrote:

      > List:
      >
      > Are any of the earliest NT papyri opisthographs? P52 appears
      > to be the oldest example of a codex fragment, therefore it's a quo
      > date of 113 CE is the earliest date I can assign for the practice
      > (unless anyone knows of an earlier example). I would be
      > interested in some examples of the ad quo dates for both Hebrew
      > and Greek opisthographic papyri.
      >
      > Jack
      >
      > --
      > D�man dith laych idneh d�nishMA nishMA
      > Jack Kilmon (jpman@...)
      >
      >
      > http://users.accesscomm.net/scriptorium
      >
      >
      >
    • Jack Kilmon
      ... Actually, I mistyped and it should have been 117 CE. The fragmenthas been dated to the time of Hadrian by Roberts with agreement from most of the eminent
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 29, 1997
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        Bart Ehrman wrote:

        > A side-question. How have you arrived at 113 CE as the terminus a
        > quo?
        >
        > -- Bart Ehrman, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

        Actually, I mistyped and it should have been 117 CE. The
        fragmenthas been dated to the time of Hadrian by Roberts with agreement
        from
        most of the eminent palaeographers of the time, Deissman, Kenyon, etc.
        Deissman actually held open the possibility for the time of Trajan
        (98-117 CE).

        Jack

        > On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Jack Kilmon wrote:
        >
        > > List:
        > >
        > > Are any of the earliest NT papyri opisthographs? P52 appears
        > > to be the oldest example of a codex fragment, therefore it's a quo
        > > date of 113 CE is the earliest date I can assign for the practice
        > > (unless anyone knows of an earlier example). I would be
        > > interested in some examples of the ad quo dates for both Hebrew
        > > and Greek opisthographic papyri.
        > >
        > > Jack
        > >
        > > --
        > > D’man dith laych idneh d’nishMA nishMA
        > > Jack Kilmon (jpman@...)
        > >
        > >
        > > http://users.accesscomm.net/scriptorium
        > >
        > >
        > >



        --
        D’man dith laych idneh d’nishMA nishMA
        Jack Kilmon (jpman@...)


        http://users.accesscomm.net/scriptorium
      • Jack Kilmon
        ... Since the text on the verso of P13 is Livy, has their been an opinion offered as to how the papyrus was used? A draft preliminary to the making of a
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 29, 1997
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          Robert B. Waltz wrote:

          > On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Jack Kilmon <jpman@...> wrote:
          >
          > >List:
          > >
          > > Are any of the earliest NT papyri opisthographs? P52 appears
          > >to be the oldest example of a codex fragment, therefore it's a quo
          > >date of 113 CE is the earliest date I can assign for the practice
          > >(unless anyone knows of an earlier example). I would be
          > >interested in some examples of the ad quo dates for both Hebrew
          > >and Greek opisthographic papyri.
          >
          > P13 -- the most substantial papyrus not in the Beatty or Bodmer
          > collections -- is an opisthograph. Date is listed as III/IV.
          > Text is similar to P46 and B.
          >

          Since the text on the verso of P13 is Livy, has their been an
          opinion
          offered as to how the papyrus was used? A draft preliminary to the
          making of a codex? A singular scroll of Hebrews, reusing a scroll
          of Livy? Is it a true opisthograph in that the text of Hebrews does not

          continue on the reverse?

          I am wondering if the invention of the codex is of Christian origin
          and may coincide with the "collation" of the Gospels and epistles
          of Paul, perhaps in Ephesus, around the turn of the 2nd century.....
          perhaps Ephesians being a "cover letter" for that work.

          For the life of me, I cannot find support for Thiede's claim that
          the Codex was in use in the mid 1st century.

          Jack

          --
          D’man dith laych idneh d’nishMA nishMA
          Jack Kilmon (jpman@...)


          http://users.accesscomm.net/scriptorium
        • Curt Niccum
          I am not familiar with Thiede s specific claim. As for the secular use of the codex, it had apparently experienced limited use before the first century of the
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 29, 1997
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            I am not familiar with Thiede's specific claim. As for the secular use
            of the codex, it had apparently experienced limited use before the first
            century of the common era (if we understand Martial correctly). In
            addition, I believe the notes of Philodemus' lectures were discovered in
            codex form which would provide hard evidence of its use around the
            middle of the first century. If Thiede is specifically referring to
            Christian codices, then his argument rests on his untenable dating of
            p64 et al.

            Curt

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Jack Kilmon [SMTP:jpman@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 1997 12:53 PM
            To: tc-list@...
            Subject: Re: tc-list Re: P52

            Robert B. Waltz wrote:

            > On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Jack Kilmon <jpman@...> wrote:
            >
            > >List:
            > >
            > > Are any of the earliest NT papyri opisthographs? P52
            appears
            > >to be the oldest example of a codex fragment, therefore it's
            a quo
            > >date of 113 CE is the earliest date I can assign for the
            practice
            > >(unless anyone knows of an earlier example). I would be
            > >interested in some examples of the ad quo dates for both
            Hebrew
            > >and Greek opisthographic papyri.
            >
            > P13 -- the most substantial papyrus not in the Beatty or
            Bodmer
            > collections -- is an opisthograph. Date is listed as III/IV.
            > Text is similar to P46 and B.
            >

            Since the text on the verso of P13 is Livy, has their been
            an
            opinion
            offered as to how the papyrus was used? A draft preliminary to
            the
            making of a codex? A singular scroll of Hebrews, reusing a
            scroll
            of Livy? Is it a true opisthograph in that the text of Hebrews
            does not

            continue on the reverse?

            I am wondering if the invention of the codex is of Christian
            origin
            and may coincide with the "collation" of the Gospels and
            epistles
            of Paul, perhaps in Ephesus, around the turn of the 2nd
            century.....
            perhaps Ephesians being a "cover letter" for that work.

            For the life of me, I cannot find support for Thiede's claim
            that
            the Codex was in use in the mid 1st century.

            Jack

            --
            D’man dith laych idneh d’nishMA nishMA
            Jack Kilmon (jpman@...)


            http://users.accesscomm.net/scriptorium
          • Jack Kilmon
            ... This is interesting. It would seem, therefore, that the codex wasdeveloped from its pagan invention by Christians while the Jewish format continued in
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 29, 1997
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              Curt Niccum wrote:

              > I am not familiar with Thiede's specific claim. As for the secular use
              >
              > of the codex, it had apparently experienced limited use before the
              > first
              > century of the common era (if we understand Martial correctly). In
              > addition, I believe the notes of Philodemus' lectures were discovered
              > in
              > codex form which would provide hard evidence of its use around the
              > middle of the first century. If Thiede is specifically referring to
              > Christian codices, then his argument rests on his untenable dating of
              > p64 et al.
              >
              > Curt
              >

              This is interesting. It would seem, therefore, that the codex
              wasdeveloped from its "pagan" invention by Christians while the
              Jewish format continued in scroll form...since the earliest Hebrew
              codex, of which I am aware, is C. Cairensis (late 9th C). The
              Jewish resistance of this much more convenient format must have
              been held on religious grounds. I wonder what format old
              Flavius Joe used for his autographs?

              Jack
              --
              D’man dith laych idneh d’nishMA nishMA
              Jack Kilmon (jpman@...)


              http://users.accesscomm.net/scriptorium
            • Professor L.W. Hurtado
              To the best of my knowledge, refs. to the use of codices in the lst-2nd cents (other than the indications of Christian appropriation of the format) signal the
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 30, 1997
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                To the best of my knowledge, refs. to the use of
                codices in the lst-2nd cents (other than the indications of Christian
                appropriation of the format) signal the following:
                --Use of the codex for non-literary purposes/writings, such as
                notebooks, study-copies of literary works, documentary texts, etc.
                --Experimentation with the codex in a few cases for liteary works,
                with a view toward making "pocket" editions. Martial's ref. for
                example seems to refer to the particular advantage of a codex for
                reading while en route.
                Thus, the Christian innovation with the codex appears as follows:
                --a MUCH more regularised/standardised appropriation/usage of the
                codex. The % figures given by Roberts & others who have worked on
                the question are undeniable.
                --a particular FAVORING of the codex for what became their
                "scriptures", both OT & NT writings. Christian copies of other
                Christian writings survive, and a number of them are NOT in codex
                form. The Christian favoring of the codex seems not easily accounted
                for merely as an act of convenience (e.g., to make "pocket
                editions"). It looks quite deliberate and purposeful. Problem is
                trying to find clear indications of the purpose!

                L. W. Hurtado
                University of Edinburgh,
                New College
                Mound Place
                Edinburgh, Scotland EH1 2LX
                Phone: 0131-650-8920
                Fax: 0131-650-6579
                E-mail: L.Hurtado@...
              • Mark and Wendy Proctor
                I m probably mentioning the obvious here, but it might be a good idea to check Harry Y. Gambe s *Books and Readers in the Early Church: A History of Early
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 30, 1997
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                  I'm probably mentioning the obvious here, but it might be a good idea to check Harry Y. Gambe's *Books and Readers in the Early Church: A History of Early Christian Texts* (New Haven: Yale U. Press, 1995) on this subject. Unless I'm mistaken, Gamble argues that the codex was not a Christian "invention," but that it was used more by Christians than others. Why? It seems that the collection of the Pauline letters and the subsequent need for an efficient way of binding this material in a usable format precipitated the widespread use of the codex form in early Christian circles. If Gamble is right, this would push the appearance of Christian codices back into the latter part of the first century.

                  Hope this is of some assistance,

                  Mark Proctor

                  ----------
                  From: Professor L.W. Hurtado[SMTP:hurtadol@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, October 30, 1997 4:15 AM
                  To: tc-list@...
                  Subject: tc-list Re: codex

                  To the best of my knowledge, refs. to the use of
                  codices in the lst-2nd cents (other than the indications of Christian
                  appropriation of the format) signal the following:
                  --Use of the codex for non-literary purposes/writings, such as
                  notebooks, study-copies of literary works, documentary texts, etc.
                  --Experimentation with the codex in a few cases for liteary works,
                  with a view toward making "pocket" editions. Martial's ref. for
                  example seems to refer to the particular advantage of a codex for
                  reading while en route.
                  Thus, the Christian innovation with the codex appears as follows:
                  --a MUCH more regularised/standardised appropriation/usage of the
                  codex. The % figures given by Roberts & others who have worked on
                  the question are undeniable.
                  --a particular FAVORING of the codex for what became their
                  "scriptures", both OT & NT writings. Christian copies of other
                  Christian writings survive, and a number of them are NOT in codex
                  form. The Christian favoring of the codex seems not easily accounted
                  for merely as an act of convenience (e.g., to make "pocket
                  editions"). It looks quite deliberate and purposeful. Problem is
                  trying to find clear indications of the purpose!

                  L. W. Hurtado
                  University of Edinburgh,
                  New College
                  Mound Place
                  Edinburgh, Scotland EH1 2LX
                  Phone: 0131-650-8920
                  Fax: 0131-650-6579
                  E-mail: L.Hurtado@...
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