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Re: acc. vs gen reading

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  • Ben Crick
    ... Hullo Andrew, I think you ll find that D in the Epistles is Codex Claramontanus (Paris, sixth century), containing the Pauline epistles; not C Bezae
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 7, 2002
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      On Fri 4 Jul 97 (10:04:42 +0930), anku@... wrote:
      >�Metzger, in his textual commentary states that the variant should be
      >�discounted because even though it is supported by B it is also
      >�supported by D and G, which weakens the authority of B. Now I checked
      >�Metzger's Text of the NT where he describes D as western witness
      >�containing the Gospels and Acts and G as a Byzantine witness containing
      >�the gospels - no mention of Romans anywhere!

      Hullo Andrew,

      I think you'll find that "D" in the Epistles is Codex Claramontanus (Paris,
      sixth century), containing the Pauline epistles; not C Bezae which is Gospels
      and Acts only.

      "G" is a ninth-century MSS in Dresden (v Dobschuetz 012; v Soden a1028),
      containing the Pauline epistles.

      FWIW the King James opted for DIA TO ENOIKOUN (Byzantine text). The
      Revised Version of 1881 relegated that to the margin, and opted for
      TOU ENOIKOUNTOS AUTOU PNEUMATOS. It is well known that Westcott and Hort
      frequently preferred the "difficult" reading, on the grounds that that would
      be the more likely to have been "improved" by an editor; therefore the
      more likely to have been the original. IMHO this is rather a subjective
      approach to the problem. I think Fee has got it right.

      Charles Hodge, /Romans/, new edition, Edinburgh, 1864, pp 260f has an
      interesting comment antedating W&H:

      "For the reading DIA TO ENOIKOUN AUTOU PNEUMA, Wetstein quotes the MSS D.E
    • Robert B. Waltz
      ... You were reading the Gospels list. In Paul, D is Codex Claromontanus, not Bezae, and G is also a different manuscript. Both are Western -- *in Paul.* Not
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 3, 1997
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        On Fri, 04 Jul 1997, Andrew Kulikovsky <anku@...> wrote:

        >Filloi, (Aussie translation: G'day mates!)
        >
        >I was reading Fee's exegesis of Rom 8:11 [ ... ]
        > The UBS4 reading has:
        >DIA TOU ENOIKOUNTOS
        >
        >and the variant:
        >DIA TO ENOIKOUN
        >
        >Metzger, in his textual commentary states that the variant should be
        >discounted because even though it is supported by B it is also supported
        >by D and G, which weakens the authority of B. Now I checked Metzger's
        >Text of the NT where he describes D as western witness containing the
        >Gospels and Acts and G as a Byzantine witness containing the gospels -
        >no mention of Romans anywhere!

        You were reading the Gospels list. In Paul, D is Codex Claromontanus, not
        Bezae, and G is also a different manuscript.

        Both are Western -- *in Paul.*

        Not that Metzger's manuscript lists are worth much. (IMHO.)

        >So firstly, are the citations of D and G in UBS4 correct and if so then
        >what about Metzger's descriptions?

        Let's give the raw evidence, then classify. (I maintain this is how
        *all* variants should be analysed -- though of course others use
        different approaches.)

        TOU ENOIKOUNTOS
        Aleph A C P**
        81 88 104 206 223 256 263 326 436 623 1319 1505 1506 1611 1799 1852
        1962 2127 2495
        f m hark sa bo arm eth geo slav
        Clement

        TO ENOIKOUN
        B D F G K L P* Psi
        6 33 181 330 424 451 (614) 629 630 1022 1175 1241 1739 1881 (1912) 2200
        2412 2464 2492 Byz
        a b d vg pesh (pal)
        Ir-lat Origen Ambrosiaster

        ********

        Analysing by text-types, we find

        TOU ENOIKOUNTOS:
        p46-B: sa
        Alexandrian: Aleph A C 81 104 1506
        family 2127 (=256 263 [hiat 365] 1319 2127 etc.) bo eth
        "Western:" f m
        family 1739: (none)
        Byzantine: slav pc
        Misc:
        family 1611: 1505 1611 2495 hark
        family 330: (none)
        arm geo Clement

        TO ENOIKOUN:
        p46-B: B
        Alexandrian (none -- 33 1175 1241 are Byzantine in Romans)
        "Western": D F G a b d vg Ir-lat Ambrosiaster
        family 1739: 6 630-2200 1739 1881 Origen (no correction in 424)
        Byzantine: K L Psi 33 (614)-2412 1022 1175 1241 pm Byz
        Misc:
        family 1611: (none)
        family 330: 330 451 2492
        pal

        In other words, TOU ENOIKOUNTOS is the reading of the Alexandrian
        text, supported only by family 1611 and some scattered witnesses.
        TO ENOIKOUN has the support of B, the "Western" text, and family
        1739. It is also supported by family 330, but this might be
        Byzantine influence. Even so, since three text-types support
        TO ENOIKOUN, it should be adopted barring extremely strong
        internal evidence -- which I don't see here.

        In other words, I agree with Fee against UBS.

        It's worth remembering that the UBS committee almost always adopted
        the Alexandrian reading, whatever the other evidence says....

        -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

        Robert B. Waltz
        waltzmn@...

        Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism?
        Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn
        (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism)
      • kdlitwak
        I gound Robert Waltx s analysis quite helpful but now I have a question. I can t say that I remember ever reading the classification of miniscule MSS like
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 3, 1997
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          I gound Robert Waltx's analysis quite helpful but now I have a
          question. I can't say that I remember ever reading the classification
          of miniscule MSS like 33,81, and 1739, etc., but it seems to me that
          usually, these three MSS agree with major Alexandrian MSS like A and B.
          This seems so much the case that I'd assumed these miniscules were
          Alexandrian. I thought I'd seen them classified that way long ago.
          Robert Waltz has treated them, if I've read his analysis correctly, as
          either Western, or not belonging to a "text type." Would someone please
          clear this up for me? Thanks.

          Ken Litwak
          Graduate Theological Union
          Berkeley, CA

          Robert B. Waltz wrote:
          [snip]


          > You were reading the Gospels list. In Paul, D is Codex Claromontanus,
          > not
          > Bezae, and G is also a different manuscript.
          >
          > Both are Western -- *in Paul.*
          >
          > Not that Metzger's manuscript lists are worth much. (IMHO.)
          >
          > >So firstly, are the citations of D and G in UBS4 correct and if so
          > then
          > >what about Metzger's descriptions?
          >
          > Let's give the raw evidence, then classify. (I maintain this is how
          > *all* variants should be analysed -- though of course others use
          > different approaches.)
          >
          > TOU ENOIKOUNTOS
          > Aleph A C P**
          > 81 88 104 206 223 256 263 326 436 623 1319 1505 1506 1611 1799 1852
          > 1962 2127 2495
          > f m hark sa bo arm eth geo slav
          > Clement
          >
          > TO ENOIKOUN
          > B D F G K L P* Psi
          > 6 33 181 330 424 451 (614) 629 630 1022 1175 1241 1739 1881 (1912)
          > 2200
          > 2412 2464 2492 Byz
          > a b d vg pesh (pal)
          > Ir-lat Origen Ambrosiaster
          >
          > ********
          >
          > Analysing by text-types, we find
          >
          > TOU ENOIKOUNTOS:
          > p46-B: sa
          > Alexandrian: Aleph A C 81 104 1506
          > family 2127 (=256 263 [hiat 365] 1319 2127 etc.) bo eth
          > "Western:" f m
          > family 1739: (none)
          > Byzantine: slav pc
          > Misc:
          > family 1611: 1505 1611 2495 hark
          > family 330: (none)
          > arm geo Clement
          >
          > TO ENOIKOUN:
          > p46-B: B
          > Alexandrian (none -- 33 1175 1241 are Byzantine in Romans)
          > "Western": D F G a b d vg Ir-lat Ambrosiaster
          > family 1739: 6 630-2200 1739 1881 Origen (no correction in 424)
          > Byzantine: K L Psi 33 (614)-2412 1022 1175 1241 pm Byz
          > Misc:
          > family 1611: (none)
          > family 330: 330 451 2492
          > pal
          >
          > In other words, TOU ENOIKOUNTOS is the reading of the Alexandrian
          > text, supported only by family 1611 and some scattered witnesses.
          > TO ENOIKOUN has the support of B, the "Western" text, and family
          > 1739. It is also supported by family 330, but this might be
          > Byzantine influence. Even so, since three text-types support
          > TO ENOIKOUN, it should be adopted barring extremely strong
          > internal evidence -- which I don't see here.
          >
          > In other words, I agree with Fee against UBS.
          >
          > It's worth remembering that the UBS committee almost always adopted
          > the Alexandrian reading, whatever the other evidence says....
          >
          > -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
          >
          > Robert B. Waltz
          > waltzmn@...
        • Robert B. Waltz
          ... Remember that I do my own analysis of text-types, using computer sampling techniques. Thus my results are somewhat different (I say better, Larry Hurtado
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 4, 1997
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            On Thu, 03 Jul 1997, kdlitwak <kdlitwak@...> wrote:

            > I gound Robert Waltx's analysis quite helpful but now I have a
            >question. I can't say that I remember ever reading the classification
            >of miniscule MSS like 33,81, and 1739, etc., but it seems to me that
            >usually, these three MSS agree with major Alexandrian MSS like A and B.
            >This seems so much the case that I'd assumed these miniscules were
            >Alexandrian. I thought I'd seen them classified that way long ago.
            >Robert Waltz has treated them, if I've read his analysis correctly, as
            >either Western, or not belonging to a "text type." Would someone please
            >clear this up for me? Thanks.

            Remember that I do my own analysis of text-types, using computer
            sampling techniques. Thus my results are somewhat different (I
            say better, Larry Hurtado would probably say worse) than those
            in the standard manuals.

            But let's look at what I said.

            In the case of 81, I classified it as Alexandrian. No disagreements
            there.

            In the case of 33, it is of course generally Alexandrian. In fact,
            after Aleph, it appears to be the best Alexandrian witness in Paul.
            *Except* in Romans. I have read that 33's text of Romans comes from
            another hand. Certainly its text is different. In Romans -- and *only*
            in Romans -- 33 is a primarily Byzantine witness.

            Then there is the truly complicated matter of 1739. When it was
            first discovered, it was listed as Alexandrian. That was based on
            the fact that it wasn't Byzantine (obviously) and wasn't "Western."

            It was Zuntz who first noted that the Alexandrian text wasn't just
            a monolithic entity. He split it into two subgroups, "proto-Alexandrian"
            and Alexandrian proper. He put 1739, along with p46 and B, in the
            former group.

            Zuntz's great achievement lay in "breaking the mold"; he didn't assume
            existing text-types. Instead, he started from p46 -- the earliest
            witness -- and tried to see where that led.

            This was a real advance, but even it was an imperfect approach. Zuntz
            noted that 1739 came closer to p46 and B than did other Alexandrian
            witnesses such as Aleph and A. Therefore Zuntz classified 1739 with
            those witnesses.

            My approach is different and, I think, more complete. I start *everywhere*
            at once. And in that process I found that 1739 is closer to all three
            established groups (p46-B, Alexandrian, "Western") than they are to each
            other.

            This leads to one of two possible conclusions. Either 1739 is a sort of
            primitive eclectic text, compiled from proto-Alexandrian, Alexandrian,
            and "Western" witnesses, or it represents a text-type in its own
            right.

            The question then becomes, "Are there any other witnesses of the 1739
            type?" The answer is emphatically YES! There are two uncials: 0121 (M)
            and 0243. And there are quite a few minuscules, among them (in Paul)
            6 424** 630+2200 (in Romans-Galatians) 1881.

            One of these -- 0121 -- gives some evidence of being actually descended
            from 1739 (with at least one intermediate copy which was partly accomodated
            to the Byzantine text). But the others are *not*. 6 and 424** form a
            subgroup with some non-Byzantine readings not found in 1739. 1881 (the
            best "1739-type" witness other than 1739 itself) also has some independent
            readings. 0243 looks like a sister or first cousin of 1739, but it does
            not appear to be either parent or child.

            Thus we have several "family 1739" witnesses not directly derived from
            1739 itself. On this basis I consider it to be a text-type in its own
            right. Hence my listing of 1739, and its relatives, apart from the
            Alexandrian text.

            If you want more details, check the article on "text-types" at the
            web site below. Also see the individual articles on 33, 81, 1739, and
            any other minuscules that interest you.

            I'm working -- slowly -- on a detailed study of family 1739 -- particularly
            on the relationship between 1739 and 0243 -- but I can't promise when it
            will be complete.


            -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

            Robert B. Waltz
            waltzmn@...

            Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism?
            Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn
            (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism)
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