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Re: New TR

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  • ANDREW SMITH
    ... Yes! We must distinguish between TCers and translators (and their respective motives).
    Message 1 of 10 , May 7, 1997
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      On Wed, 7 May 1997, DC PARKER wrote:

      > Translators may use the UBS/NA27
      > text - though they may adopt readings in the apparatus. But they are
      > not necessarily, and in that tole are not primarily, textual critics.

      Yes! We must distinguish between TCers and translators (and their
      respective motives).
    • ANDREW SMITH
      To a certain extent, I agree. TC is primarily an academic project; it does have some application to the real world community of believers, but it is primarily
      Message 2 of 10 , May 7, 1997
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        To a certain extent, I agree. TC is primarily an academic project; it does
        have some application to the real world community of believers, but it is
        primarily the study of historical text transmission. Consider how an
        English professor may compare the variant spellings in the first three
        printed editions of a Shakespeare play, for example. As an academic
        myself, I do not deride such work, and such work is not any more "self
        congratulatory" than any other work. Being "self congratulatory" is
        primarily a personal characteristic, and a good TCer, like any other human
        being, should be humble. Although I love academia, I do admit that there
        is a distinction between it and the real world. Trouble often arises when
        that boundary is ignored.

        On Wed, 7 May 1997, Jim West wrote:

        > Andrew raises an important question. He suggests that TC is not the same as
        > Bible translation. This is of course true. But if the purpose of TC is not
        > to provide a textual base that is as near to the original as possible, for
        > translators of the Bible and for the community of faith, then what is the
        > purpose of TC? If TC is simply a task "incurvate in se" for the dwellers of
        > ivory towers, and has no practical application in the community of
        > believers, then why is it practiced at all?
        >
        > In short, I have always believed that TC is one of the most important
        > aspects of Biblical Studies. When one has a text that is relaible then, and
        > only then, can one procede to exegesis. But if TCers, as Andrew seems to
        > suggest, are simply engaged in self congratulatory work (my phrase, not
        > his), then what validity does their work have? They are merely examining
        > the "entrails of the gnat" (to steal a line from an old Greek play).
      • ANDREW SMITH
        ... TC is a purely academic activity. Consider the question of which sub-family of LXX text Wulfila used when making his Gothic translation of the Tanakh.
        Message 3 of 10 , May 7, 1997
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          On Wed, 7 May 1997, Jim West wrote:

          > True. But if TC is not aimed at the work of translators, what is its purpose?

          TC is a purely academic activity. Consider the question of which
          sub-family of LXX text Wulfila used when making his Gothic translation of
          the Tanakh. Given that Gothic now a completely dead language, and that
          Wulfila's translation has been lost except for about five verses from the
          book of Nehemiah, this question is hopelessly useless. Yet I work on it
          passionately.

          I personally practice a type of split-personality disorder: one considers
          the text as the object of TC activity in one way, and in an entirely
          different way when one is, e.g., teaching Bible class on Sunday morning.

          By way of analogy, consider the activity of comparing the 1611 KJV to the
          1769 KJV; this is
          an exercise in English spelling, not an exercise of faith. On the other
          hand, asking why the resurrected Jesus appeared at first like a gardener
          to Mary is an exercise of faith, not TC.
        • Jim West
          Dr. Parker, ... True. But if TC is not aimed at the work of translators, what is its purpose? ... textual critic who is ... Nor do I. But by base text I mean
          Message 4 of 10 , May 7, 1997
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            Dr. Parker,
            At 02:11 PM 5/7/97 +0000, you wrote:
            >In reply to Jim West:
            >
            >2. You've changed the subject. Translators may use the UBS/NA27
            >text - though they may adopt readings in the apparatus. But they are
            >not necessarily, and in that tole are not primarily, textual critics.

            True. But if TC is not aimed at the work of translators, what is its purpose?

            >
            >I did not write that there were textual critics 'who do not work with
            >NA27 as the base' (whatever 'base means' here), but that 'I know of no
            textual critic who is
            >satisfied with a printed edition'.

            Nor do I. But by base text I mean that the NA26 or 27 is the base text for
            TC work. You admit that you use it for the basis of your work. It is the
            Received Text for TCers and translators. It is the text we have at hand
            which we use in our everyday work. What else would a TR be?

            > Of course I use NA27 to look up
            >readings and for teaching. But I am in continuous critical debate
            >with its text, and so is every textual critic.

            I would suggest that translators and preachers are in dialogue with its
            readings as well. This does not change the fact that it is the established
            text for such work.

            > I use many other
            >printed texts and apparatus critici as well. They all have their
            >strengths and weaknesses, and part of our discipline is to know and
            >understand them. That is what I meant by 'I know of no textual
            >critic who is satisfied with a printed edition'.
            >

            I know of no TCer who is satisfied with any text or any set of ideas.

            I thank you for your clarifications.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >DC PARKER
            >DEPT OF THEOLOGY
            >UNIVERSITY OF BIRMINGHAM
            >TEL. 0121-414 3613
            >FAX 0121-414 6866
            >E-MAIL PARKERDC@...

            Jim

            +++++++++++++++++++++++
            Jim West, ThD
            Pastor, Petros Baptist Church
            jwest@...


            "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes!"
          • ANDREW SMITH
            I agree with Bultmann s view - which is why I think that the Church shouldn t expend its resources on lots of TC type activities. Professional scholarship is
            Message 5 of 10 , May 7, 1997
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              I agree with Bultmann's view - which is why I think that the Church
              shouldn't expend its resources on lots of TC type activities.
              Professional scholarship is like bowling or fishing - nice passtimes.
              While I'm happy to collect a paycheck for analyzing Goethe's use of the
              subjunctive, I'd never confuse it with productive activity. And I'd never
              expect my church to subsidize any such thing. The has practical business
              to attend to: feeding the poor, preaching the Gospel. Hence I devote my
              evenings and weekends to such. The academic needs of the church center
              around the interpretation of text for practical decisions; this is
              contrasted with the academic study of text for the sake of studying text.
              Many academics would be happy to study any text.

              We had a discussion on this list a month or two ago about NT TC and other
              kinds of TC. NT TC is more marketable, because there is a reading public
              interested in the NT for reasons of faith. But the TC enterprise itself
              is happy to study text for the sake of study.

              On Wed, 7 May 1997, Jim West wrote:

              > Andrew suggested that TC is indeed a self contained scholarly enterprise. I
              > would simply offer the folloiwng dictum from R. Bultmann (whom I believe to
              > be right in most instances):
              >
              > Unsere Kirche hat den Laien viel von Kritik und Wissenschaft vorenthalten
              > und muss das Versaeumte schnell nachholen, wenn sie nicht bitter buessen
              > will... Aber Hand in Hand mit den Laienkreisen wird auch die Theologie viel
              > weiter kommen als allein.
            • Jim West
              Andrew suggested that TC is indeed a self contained scholarly enterprise. I would simply offer the folloiwng dictum from R. Bultmann (whom I believe to be
              Message 6 of 10 , May 7, 1997
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                Andrew suggested that TC is indeed a self contained scholarly enterprise. I
                would simply offer the folloiwng dictum from R. Bultmann (whom I believe to
                be right in most instances):

                Unsere Kirche hat den Laien viel von Kritik und Wissenschaft vorenthalten
                und muss das Versaeumte schnell nachholen, wenn sie nicht bitter buessen
                will... Aber Hand in Hand mit den Laienkreisen wird auch die Theologie viel
                weiter kommen als allein.


                Jim

                +++++++++++++++++++++++
                Jim West, ThD
                Pastor, Petros Baptist Church
                jwest@...


                "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes!"
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