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[tatar-l] Re: Religeous oppression in Tatarstan

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  • Ibrahim Underwood
    assalamu alaikum, it is a pity that such obstacles exist to understanding the Qur an, though perhaps that is the intention? As a dear English brother who lives
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 1, 2000
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      assalamu alaikum,

      it is a pity that such obstacles exist to understanding the Qur'an, though
      perhaps that is the intention?

      As a dear English brother who lives in Saudi told me, they might not be the
      best scholars or rulers, but it is in their understanding of tauheed (the
      unity of our Lord) that they excel. Probably my favourite trans. of the
      Qur'an is by two Saudi scholars, other translations are quite pale by
      comparision.

      On another note, the so-called "Wahhabism" (what better way of denigrating
      an reformist idea than by labelling it) has been persecuted in Russia since
      1996 because of its association with Chechnya correct? Has that been right
      across the former USSR or just the Rus. Fed.?

      wasalam wa ramadhan kareem all!

      Ibrahim Underwood
      Brisbane, Australia

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Resat Sabik [mailto:turktatar@...]
      Sent: Friday, 31 December 1999 8:37
      To: tatar-l@egroups.com
      Subject: [tatar-l] Re: Religeous oppression in Tatarstan


      Esselamogaleykom,
      i have never seen any other Tatar me'al of the Qur'an
      than the perverted edition i mentioned. When i last
      was in Tatarstan, August-September 1998, i attended
      jum'a prayers but never encountered anything
      suggesting possible Saudi- or other-published me'als.
      I also talked to some interested people but they only
      mentioned that there were some preparations for a new
      edition of the me'al, but again by unfortunately
      untrustworthy officials. Not a word of any other
      edition from abroad.
      Maybe, Saudis might distribute some Tatar me'als to
      hajjis, but this is only a guess (i'm not a hajji
      yet). But Wahhabi comprehension of Islam, as i
      mentioned a month ago, has been castigated since about
      1996. So, in any case, authorities (both russian and
      Tatarstann)will not welcome it. In any case, they will
      not facilitate distribution of such me'als in
      state-controled mosques. The word Wahhabi in russia
      has become identical to terrorist, or "state-enemy" of
      the Soviet times.

      russian me'als of the Qur'an are available since about
      end of 19th century. I foregot the name of the person
      that prepared the one i read, but he prepared it in
      about 1910. I'm not an Islamic scientist, but i had
      impression that his edition is at least fair, pure of
      ideological effects. I also saw another one prepared
      by a relatively new graduate of Arabic studies of a
      Moscow university, a woman with russian surname. (i
      don't know how fiqih looks at women preparing me'als,
      but guess it is not welcome) These editions are not by
      Christian organizations. Strange-a Christian people
      (just like all others) have better me'als in their
      language than Tatars. I guess the official Tatar me'al
      is the worst ever published in any language.

      As i said i heard of new official me'al being prepared
      , but i doubt that it will be objective, just any
      published or televised material in Tatarstan. As to
      non-official editions, so far i doubt they are
      possible: Muslim organizations in Tatarstan depend on
      the government and the government does not espouse
      anything non-official, or alternative.

      Personally, although as i mentioned i do not share
      some singular Saudi practices, i think they are the
      best in me'als and tafsirs. Recently i encountered an
      English version-the best i've ever seen. It's no
      wonder, since most of other Muslim countries do not
      treat Qur'an as the primary source of religeous
      judgements, paying unduely large attention to what
      previous scholars of specific mazhabs (sects) of their
      affiliation had to say. (Once in Turkey (in a very
      close-minded jama'at), i heard from one that if Sunni
      scholars contradict the Qur'an then there is something
      incomprehensible, and Muslims still should adhere to
      what scholars said and not to what is in the Qur'an.
      Although, there are many scholars in Turkey now who
      argue that such a view is wrong)

      Actually, if somebody wanted to prepare a fairly
      authentic me'al it could be done from a me'al in a
      different language (English/Turkish)-this wouldn't be
      as good as from Arabic, but it would be hundred times
      better than the official me'al, and already good for a
      first objective attempt.

      Ramazan kerim,
      Resat

      --- Ibrahim Underwood <s346223@...>
      wrote:
      > assalamu alaikum
      >
      > surely there are translations of the meaning of the
      > Qur'an into Tatar from
      > organisations such as the Saudis and Pakistanis?
      > The literature from Muslim
      > missionary organisations from these countries is
      > prolific (Iran runs a close
      > third), in many many languages. Or is literature
      > from these countries
      > demonised as "Wahhabi"?
      >
      > What about the Qur'an in Russian (or are these of
      > Orthodox Church origin)?
      >
      > And are there attempts by Tatar Muslims to produce a
      > reliable and more
      > authentic me'al?
      >
      > wasalam wa ramadhan kareem.
      >
      > Ibrahim al Australi Underwood
      > Brisbane, Australia
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Resat Sabik [mailto:turktatar@...]
      > Sent: Wednesday, 29 December 1999 5:11
      > To: Zulfia Kadir
      > Cc: tatar-l@egroups.com
      > Subject: [tatar-l] Religeous oppression in Tatarstan
      >
      >
      > To add to the religeous persecution mentioned i want
      > to refer to the "me'al" (translation of the Holy
      > Qur'an) that was allegedly approved by the First
      > World
      > Congress of Tatars.(i am sure most of the delegates
      > never had a chance to look through it before it was
      > offered for approval)
      >
      > When i first got interested in Islam i said Tatar is
      > a
      > language of my nation, a Muslim nation, so i should
      > try to read the me'al of the Qur'an in Tatar not in
      > russian. I tried hard. Then my young but acute mind
      > questioned "why is it that five-six sentences in
      > Arabic (after i tried to compare Arabic with Tatar
      > texts) are translated by one-two pages of lengthy,
      > imperceivable and incoherent text. Then i took a
      > russian me'al and said "Hay daaaah". The Tatar text
      > was anything but close to Arabic original. And i can
      > bet this was done purposely, maybe not by
      > shaimiev-then by russian friends from Lubnianka
      > street, whatever the address of the headquarters.
      >
      > The result is not only that the me'al doesn't have
      > an
      > impression of harmonious verse-no language can
      > produce
      > the harmony of the Qur'an in Arabic. Most
      > importantly,
      > the text is difficult to comprehend-you simply can't
      > figure out anything from the mess that is presented
      > as
      > Tatar me'al of the Qur'an.
      >
      >
      > I would ask somebody from Tatarstan/russia to find
      > that text and image or print the suratul-Fatiha. I
      > would then try to provide the Tatar version of how
      > this introductory sura is presented in Turkish or
      > English. Believe me, i wouldn't be able to provide
      > such mess even if i would like to. And that is not
      > the
      > worst of that pagan text that is sold to Tatars as
      > meal of the Holy Qur'an.
      >
      > Resat.
      > __________________________________________________
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    • Resat Sabik
      Esselamogaleykom, regarding Saudi purity in religion, i somewhere encountered that a blind Qur anic scholar in the 1950s, i guess, that is before the first
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 3, 2000
      • 0 Attachment
        Esselamogaleykom,

        regarding Saudi purity in religion, i somewhere
        encountered that a blind Qur'anic scholar in the
        1950s, i guess, that is before the first space travel,
        inferred from the Qur'an that the land moves around
        the sun. I don't recall the exact idea, maybe that
        something else moves around something else. Does
        anybody have any info on this miracle of the Qur'an.

        Regarding persecution of Muwahhidun
        (Unitarians-believers in the Unity of the Almighty), i
        guess it is not only because of possible connotations
        with Chechnya. In fact, i guess Chechens mostly adhere
        to Shafi'i interpretation within Sunnis. Although, i
        guess they are not that much close-minded to reject
        any other comprehensions.

        Most importantly, i think because of the Qur'an's
        place as the primary religeous source Wahhabism is
        persecuted in russia (i didn't hear about other CIS
        countries). When scholars opinion is considered higher
        than the Qur'an it is easy to manipulate with people:
        what is being done in russia now.

        Resat.

        --- Ibrahim Underwood <s346223@...>
        wrote:
        > assalamu alaikum,
        >
        > it is a pity that such obstacles exist to
        > understanding the Qur'an, though
        > perhaps that is the intention?
        >
        > As a dear English brother who lives in Saudi told
        > me, they might not be the
        > best scholars or rulers, but it is in their
        > understanding of tauheed (the
        > unity of our Lord) that they excel. Probably my
        > favourite trans. of the
        > Qur'an is by two Saudi scholars, other translations
        > are quite pale by
        > comparision.
        >
        > On another note, the so-called "Wahhabism" (what
        > better way of denigrating
        > an reformist idea than by labelling it) has been
        > persecuted in Russia since
        > 1996 because of its association with Chechnya
        > correct? Has that been right
        > across the former USSR or just the Rus. Fed.?
        >
        > wasalam wa ramadhan kareem all!
        >
        > Ibrahim Underwood
        > Brisbane, Australia
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Resat Sabik [mailto:turktatar@...]
        > Sent: Friday, 31 December 1999 8:37
        > To: tatar-l@egroups.com
        > Subject: [tatar-l] Re: Religeous oppression in
        > Tatarstan
        >
        >
        > Esselamogaleykom,
        > i have never seen any other Tatar me'al of the
        > Qur'an
        > than the perverted edition i mentioned. When i last
        > was in Tatarstan, August-September 1998, i attended
        > jum'a prayers but never encountered anything
        > suggesting possible Saudi- or other-published
        > me'als.
        > I also talked to some interested people but they
        > only
        > mentioned that there were some preparations for a
        > new
        > edition of the me'al, but again by unfortunately
        > untrustworthy officials. Not a word of any other
        > edition from abroad.
        > Maybe, Saudis might distribute some Tatar me'als to
        > hajjis, but this is only a guess (i'm not a hajji
        > yet). But Wahhabi comprehension of Islam, as i
        > mentioned a month ago, has been castigated since
        > about
        > 1996. So, in any case, authorities (both russian
        > and
        > Tatarstann)will not welcome it. In any case, they
        > will
        > not facilitate distribution of such me'als in
        > state-controled mosques. The word Wahhabi in russia
        > has become identical to terrorist, or "state-enemy"
        > of
        > the Soviet times.
        >
        > russian me'als of the Qur'an are available since
        > about
        > end of 19th century. I foregot the name of the
        > person
        > that prepared the one i read, but he prepared it in
        > about 1910. I'm not an Islamic scientist, but i had
        > impression that his edition is at least fair, pure
        > of
        > ideological effects. I also saw another one prepared
        > by a relatively new graduate of Arabic studies of a
        > Moscow university, a woman with russian surname. (i
        > don't know how fiqih looks at women preparing
        > me'als,
        > but guess it is not welcome) These editions are not
        > by
        > Christian organizations. Strange-a Christian people
        > (just like all others) have better me'als in their
        > language than Tatars. I guess the official Tatar
        > me'al
        > is the worst ever published in any language.
        >
        > As i said i heard of new official me'al being
        > prepared
        > , but i doubt that it will be objective, just any
        > published or televised material in Tatarstan. As to
        > non-official editions, so far i doubt they are
        > possible: Muslim organizations in Tatarstan depend
        > on
        > the government and the government does not espouse
        > anything non-official, or alternative.
        >
        > Personally, although as i mentioned i do not share
        > some singular Saudi practices, i think they are the
        > best in me'als and tafsirs. Recently i encountered
        > an
        > English version-the best i've ever seen. It's no
        > wonder, since most of other Muslim countries do not
        > treat Qur'an as the primary source of religeous
        > judgements, paying unduely large attention to what
        > previous scholars of specific mazhabs (sects) of
        > their
        > affiliation had to say. (Once in Turkey (in a very
        > close-minded jama'at), i heard from one that if
        > Sunni
        > scholars contradict the Qur'an then there is
        > something
        > incomprehensible, and Muslims still should adhere to
        > what scholars said and not to what is in the Qur'an.
        > Although, there are many scholars in Turkey now who
        > argue that such a view is wrong)
        >
        > Actually, if somebody wanted to prepare a fairly
        > authentic me'al it could be done from a me'al in a
        > different language (English/Turkish)-this wouldn't
        > be
        > as good as from Arabic, but it would be hundred
        > times
        > better than the official me'al, and already good for
        > a
        > first objective attempt.
        >
        > Ramazan kerim,
        > Resat
        >
        > --- Ibrahim Underwood <s346223@...>
        > wrote:
        > > assalamu alaikum
        > >
        > > surely there are translations of the meaning of
        > the
        > > Qur'an into Tatar from
        > > organisations such as the Saudis and Pakistanis?
        > > The literature from Muslim
        > > missionary organisations from these countries is
        > > prolific (Iran runs a close
        > > third), in many many languages. Or is literature
        > > from these countries
        > > demonised as "Wahhabi"?
        > >
        > > What about the Qur'an in Russian (or are these of
        > > Orthodox Church origin)?
        > >
        > > And are there attempts by Tatar Muslims to produce
        > a
        > > reliable and more
        > > authentic me'al?
        > >
        > > wasalam wa ramadhan kareem.
        > >
        > > Ibrahim al Australi Underwood
        > > Brisbane, Australia
        > >
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Resat Sabik [mailto:turktatar@...]
        > > Sent: Wednesday, 29 December 1999 5:11
        > > To: Zulfia Kadir
        > > Cc: tatar-l@egroups.com
        > > Subject: [tatar-l] Religeous oppression in
        > Tatarstan
        > >
        > >
        > > To add to the religeous persecution mentioned i
        > want
        > > to refer to the "me'al" (translation of the Holy
        > > Qur'an) that was allegedly approved by the First
        > > World
        > > Congress of Tatars.(i am sure most of the
        > delegates
        > > never had a chance to look through it before it
        > was
        > > offered for approval)
        > >
        > > When i first got interested in Islam i said Tatar
        > is
        > > a
        > > language of my nation, a Muslim nation, so i
        > should
        > > try to read the me'al of the Qur'an in Tatar not
        > in
        > > russian. I tried hard. Then my young but acute
        > mind
        > > questioned "why is it that five-six sentences in
        > > Arabic (after i tried to compare Arabic with Tatar
        > > texts) are translated by one-two pages of lengthy,
        > > imperceivable and incoherent text. Then i took a
        > > russian me'al and said "Hay daaaah". The Tatar
        > text
        > > was anything but close to Arabic original. And i
        > can
        > > bet this was done purposely, maybe not by
        > > shaimiev-then by russian friends from Lubnianka
        > > street, whatever the address of the headquarters.
        > >
        >
        === message truncated ===

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