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Re: Why Tatars should Support Palestine

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  • Jonathan Reiss
    Comparing the Tatars situation to the cause and the methods of the Palestinian terrorists is ignorant and offensive. Do Tatars teach their children to hate
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 14, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Comparing the Tatars' situation to the cause and the methods of the
      Palestinian terrorists is ignorant and offensive.

      Do Tatars teach their children to hate all Jews (or Russians)? Do
      Tatars create children's shows where animal characters promote murder?
      Do Tatars dress their children in fake suicide bomber vests and train
      them in the use of machine guns?

      I know that Israel is not blameless in this conflict, but when they
      are under constant attack from terrorists like Hamas, how are they
      supposed to react? How would France react if Belgium launched rockets
      across their shared border? Can you imagine what Russia would do if
      some fringe Tatar group started attacking the cities just outside of
      Tatarstan??

      I feel great sympathy for the majority of the Palestinian people, who
      have gotten a raw deal for years. However, the fanatics and
      terrorists have made life even worse for those people. Every time
      Israel has given a concession, the terrorists have used it to increase
      attacks and tighten their stranglehold on the people they claim to be
      protecting.

      --- In tatar-l@yahoogroups.com, "EmilK" <tafik@...> wrote:
      >
      > Sabirjan-bey, I find your Tatar Israeli comparance very disturbing.
      >
      > We are two absolutely different nations that have very little in
      common. The only thing I can think of is an old Russian reference to
      Tatars as "jews of the east".
      > First of all, we are not scattered nation and we do have our land,
      maybe not at full Tatar control but we do.
      > Second of all, we still live under oppressor and at certain
      historical moments we fight for our right to independence using any
      means necessary, diplomacy or firepower.
      > But if we would take on arms against Russia, will you support them
      with your speech of protecting Russian children?
      >
      > In our cause for independence we have much more in common with
      people of Palestine than with israelis.
      > Palestinians fight for their land and their independence with nation
      that treats them like animals at the zoo, deciding to let them out for
      a walk or not.
      > It's been not that long since Tatar language was referred to as
      "dog's language" in Russia, so go talk to israelis and listen to their
      reference to the people of Palestine. You will very quickly find
      parallels between Russians and Israelis, who not that long ago were
      almost same people.
      >
      > Comparing Tatar to Israeli is like comparing Tatar to Russian.
      >
      > Jewish influence of Russian Mass Media, Educational system and
      Entertainment channels is also very interesting. Why is there very
      little support to Turkic independence movement or simple participation
      in Information Outlets (movies, concerts, programs) by people with
      Turkic last names? We blame Russian government, but it's
      administration with Jewish last names that executes the orders.
      >
      > You would think that the nation that suffered such horrible
      atrocities as Holocaust would do everything possible not let other
      nation treated this way.
      > At this point, there is very little difference between what Nazis
      did and what Israel is doing.
      >
      > Your reference to Russian commentators and politicians "Just
      consider how Israel has been likened to Nazism, and the Gazans to
      refugees living in the Warsaw ghetto" is absolutely correct and as the
      same point of view is shared by Israeli Human Rights organizations.
      > " Al these facts clearly show that ethically Israel is on a much
      higher ground than the guerrillas of Hamas."
      > What ethics are you talking about?????
      > With millions displaced people, with no right to their land, treated
      like farm animals. Or you forgot what Russians did to our nation?
      >
      > This is far from "blind loyalty", "blind loyalty" is more what FOX,
      CNN will offer and off course Bush's press center.
      > But what's really upsetting is Tatars that find comfort in Israeli
      cause.
      > There was a Tatar lady, that changed her Tatar name to Russian,
      married to Russian-Jewish man, and named her children with
      Russian-Jewish names and blessed them off to serve in IDF. And then,
      she remembered her Tatar identity and created a group "Tatars for
      Israel". Which luckily turned out to be a joke.
      > It would be very sad to see another Tatar go this way.
      >
      > My prayers go to People of Palestine against Israeli oppressor.
      >
      > Emil Khisamov
      >
    • SabirjanB@aol.com
      Hi Jonathan, Thank you for your message in Tatar-L.? I am glad that the situation in Israel and Gaza is becoming a topic of discussions in the Tatar-L mailing
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 14, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Jonathan,

        Thank you for your message in Tatar-L.  I am glad that the situation in Israel and Gaza is becoming a topic of discussions in the Tatar-L mailing list.  It is important for Tatars to start thinking about global issues, not just about regional issues, especially keeping in mind that Tatarstan might become an independent state in the future.  But I noticed that all the people who posted anti-Israeli messages on Tatar-L so far are not Volga Tatars - they are either Turks or Crimean Tatar members of the list.  In my opinion, Volga Tatars are much more nuanced in their views and probably more pro-Israel.  That's why any argumentation involving examples based on parallels with the Tatarstan's situation will fall on deaf ears. It bothers me sometimes that about 50 percent of all messages in the mailing groups that originally was meant to be for Volga Tatars are either in Turkish or Crimean Tatar language. I have nothing against Turks and Crimean Tatars but their participation in the mailing group shifts the focus of our discussions into a more conservative, religious and anti-Semitic realm.  So, please remember that they don't represent the Volga Tatar people.

        Selemner belen,
        Sabirjan Badretdin


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Jonathan Reiss <maristredfox@...>
        To: tatar-l@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 8:22 am
        Subject: [tatar-l] Re: Why Tatars should Support Palestine

        Comparing the Tatars' situation to the cause and the methods of the
        Palestinian terrorists is ignorant and offensive.

        Do Tatars teach their children to hate all Jews (or Russians)? Do
        Tatars create children's shows where animal characters promote murder?
        Do Tatars dress their children in fake suicide bomber vests and train
        them in the use of machine guns?

        I know that Israel is not blameless in this conflict, but when they
        are under constant attack from terrorists like Hamas, how are they
        supposed to react? How would France react if Belgium launched rockets
        across their shared border? Can you imagine what Russia would do if
        some fringe Tatar group started attacking the cities just outside of
        Tatarstan??

        I feel great sympathy for the majority of the Palestinian people, who
        have gotten a raw deal for years. However, the fanatics and
        terrorists have made life even worse for those people. Every time
        Israel has given a concession, the terrorists have used it to increase
        attacks and tighten their stranglehold on the people they claim to be
        protecting.

        --- In tatar-l@yahoogroups .com, "EmilK" <tafik@...> wrote:
        >
        > Sabirjan-bey, I find your Tatar Israeli comparance very disturbing.
        >
        > We are two absolutely different nations that have very little in
        common. The only thing I can think of is an old Russian reference to
        Tatars as "jews of the east".
        > First of all, we are not scattered nation and we do have our land,
        maybe not at full Tatar control but we do.
        > Second of all, we still live under oppressor and at certain
        historical moments we fight for our right to independence using any
        means necessary, diplomacy or firepower.
        > But if we would take on arms against Russia, will you support them
        with your speech of protecting Russian children?
        >
        > In our cause for independence we have much more in common with
        people of Palestine than with israelis.
        > Palestinians fight for their land and their independence with nation
        that treats them like animals at the zoo, deciding to let them out for
        a walk or not.
        > It's been not that long since Tatar language was referred to as
        "dog's language" in Russia, so go talk to israelis and listen to their
        reference to the people of Palestine. You will very quickly find
        parallels between Russians and Israelis, who not that long ago were
        almost same people.
        >
        > Comparing Tatar to Israeli is like comparing Tatar to Russian.
        >
        > Jewish influence of Russian Mass Media, Educational system and
        Entertainment channels is also very interesting. Why is there very
        little support to Turkic independence movement or simple participation
        in Information Outlets (movies, concerts, programs) by people with
        Turkic last names? We blame Russian government, but it's
        administration with Jewish last names that executes the orders.
        >
        > You would think that the nation that suffered such horrible
        atrocities as Holocaust would do everything possible not let other
        nation treated this way.
        > At this point, there is very little difference between what Nazis
        did and what Israel is doing.
        >
        > Your reference to Russian commentators and politicians "Just
        consider how Israel has been likened to Nazism, and the Gazans to
        refugees living in the Warsaw ghetto" is absolutely correct and as the
        same point of view is shared by Israeli Human Rights organizations.
        > " Al these facts clearly show that ethically Israel is on a much
        higher ground than the guerrillas of Hamas."
        > What ethics are you talking about?????
        > With millions displaced people, with no right to their land, treated
        like farm animals. Or you forgot what Russians did to our nation?
        >
        > This is far from "blind loyalty", "blind loyalty" is more what FOX,
        CNN will offer and off course Bush's press center.
        > But what's really upsetting is Tatars that find comfort in Israeli
        cause.
        > There was a Tatar lady, that changed her Tatar name to Russian,
        married to Russian-Jewish man, and named her children with
        Russian-Jewish names and blessed them off to serve in IDF. And then,
        she remembered her Tatar identity and created a group "Tatars for
        Israel". Which luckily turned out to be a joke.
        > It would be very sad to see another Tatar go this way.
        >
        > My prayers go to People of Palestine against Israeli oppressor.
        >
        > Emil Khisamov
        >

      • pohur
        My dear Mankurt, Personally I am a Volga Tatar born and raised in Turkiye. And furthermore the correct terminology is Kazan Turkish , my dear mankurt. Also
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 14, 2009
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          My dear Mankurt,

          Personally I am a "Volga Tatar" born and raised in Turkiye. And
          furthermore the correct terminology is "Kazan Turkish", my dear mankurt.

          Also just because you are probably living in Tataristan or Russia ,
          does not mean that you represent Volga Tatars.

          As for Israel, you do not have to be an anti-semite to understand the
          situation in Gazze. A little bit of empathy plus common sense is
          enough to perceive what is going on.

          Halim Sibay Tugsavul

          --- In tatar-l@yahoogroups.com, SabirjanB@... wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi Jonathan,
          >
          >
          >
          > Thank you for your message in Tatar-L.? I am glad that the situation in
          > Israel and Gaza is becoming a topic of discussions in the Tatar-L
          > mailing list.? It is important for Tatars to start thinking about
          > global issues, not just about regional issues, especially keeping in
          > mind that Tatarstan might become an independent state in the future.?
          > But I noticed that all the people who posted anti-Israeli messages on
          > Tatar-L so far are not Volga Tatars - they are either Turks or Crimean
          > Tatar members of the list.? In my opinion, Volga Tatars are much more
          > nuanced in their views and probably more pro-Israel.? That's why any
          > argumentation involving examples based on parallels with the
          > Tatarstan's situation will fall on deaf ears. It bothers me sometimes
          > that about 50 percent of all messages in the mailing groups that
          > originally was meant to be for Volga Tatars are either in Turkish or
          > Crimean Tatar language. I have nothing against Turks and Crimean Tatars
          > but their participation in the mailing group shifts the focus of our
          > discussions into a more conservative, religious and anti-Semitic
          realm.? So, please remember that they don't represent the Volga Tatar
          people.
          >
          >
          >
          > Selemner belen,
          >
          > Sabirjan Badretdin
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Jonathan Reiss <maristredfox@...>
          > To: tatar-l@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 8:22 am
          > Subject: [tatar-l] Re: Why Tatars should Support Palestine
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Comparing the Tatars' situation to the cause and the methods of the
          >
          > Palestinian terrorists is ignorant and offensive.
          >
          >
          >
          > Do Tatars teach their children to hate all Jews (or Russians)? Do
          >
          > Tatars create children's shows where animal characters promote murder?
          >
          > Do Tatars dress their children in fake suicide bomber vests and train
          >
          > them in the use of machine guns?
          >
          >
          >
          > I know that Israel is not blameless in this conflict, but when they
          >
          > are under constant attack from terrorists like Hamas, how are they
          >
          > supposed to react? How would France react if Belgium launched rockets
          >
          > across their shared border? Can you imagine what Russia would do if
          >
          > some fringe Tatar group started attacking the cities just outside of
          >
          > Tatarstan??
          >
          >
          >
          > I feel great sympathy for the majority of the Palestinian people, who
          >
          > have gotten a raw deal for years. However, the fanatics and
          >
          > terrorists have made life even worse for those people. Every time
          >
          > Israel has given a concession, the terrorists have used it to increase
          >
          > attacks and tighten their stranglehold on the people they claim to be
          >
          > protecting.
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In tatar-l@yahoogroups.com, "EmilK" <tafik@> wrote:
          >
          > >
          >
          > > Sabirjan-bey, I find your Tatar Israeli comparance very disturbing.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > We are two absolutely different nations that have very little in
          >
          > common. The only thing I can think of is an old Russian reference to
          >
          > Tatars as "jews of the east".
          >
          > > First of all, we are not scattered nation and we do have our land,
          >
          > maybe not at full Tatar control but we do.
          >
          > > Second of all, we still live under oppressor and at certain
          >
          > historical moments we fight for our right to independence using any
          >
          > means necessary, diplomacy or firepower.
          >
          > > But if we would take on arms against Russia, will you support them
          >
          > with your speech of protecting Russian children?
          >
          > >
          >
          > > In our cause for independence we have much more in common with
          >
          > people of Palestine than with israelis.
          >
          > > Palestinians fight for their land and their independence with nation
          >
          > that treats them like animals at the zoo, deciding to let them out for
          >
          > a walk or not.
          >
          > > It's been not that long since Tatar language was referred to as
          >
          > "dog's language" in Russia, so go talk to israelis and listen to their
          >
          > reference to the people of Palestine. You will very quickly find
          >
          > parallels between Russians and Israelis, who not that long ago were
          >
          > almost same people.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > Comparing Tatar to Israeli is like comparing Tatar to Russian.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > Jewish influence of Russian Mass Media, Educational system and
          >
          > Entertainment channels is also very interesting. Why is there very
          >
          > little support to Turkic independence movement or simple participation
          >
          > in Information Outlets (movies, concerts, programs) by people with
          >
          > Turkic last names? We blame Russian government, but it's
          >
          > administration with Jewish last names that executes the orders.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > You would think that the nation that suffered such horrible
          >
          > atrocities as Holocaust would do everything possible not let other
          >
          > nation treated this way.
          >
          > > At this point, there is very little difference between what Nazis
          >
          > did and what Israel is doing.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > Your reference to Russian commentators and politicians "Just
          >
          > consider how Israel has been likened to Nazism, and the Gazans to
          >
          > refugees living in the Warsaw ghetto" is absolutely correct and as the
          >
          > same point of view is shared by Israeli Human Rights organizations.
          >
          > > " Al these facts clearly show that ethically Israel is on a much
          >
          > higher ground than the guerrillas of Hamas."
          >
          > > What ethics are you talking about?????
          >
          > > With millions displaced people, with no right to their land, treated
          >
          > like farm animals. Or you forgot what Russians did to our nation?
          >
          > >
          >
          > > This is far from "blind loyalty", "blind loyalty" is more what FOX,
          >
          > CNN will offer and off course Bush's press center.
          >
          > > But what's really upsetting is Tatars that find comfort in Israeli
          >
          > cause.
          >
          > > There was a Tatar lady, that changed her Tatar name to Russian,
          >
          > married to Russian-Jewish man, and named her children with
          >
          > Russian-Jewish names and blessed them off to serve in IDF. And then,
          >
          > she remembered her Tatar identity and created a group "Tatars for
          >
          > Israel". Which luckily turned out to be a joke.
          >
          > > It would be very sad to see another Tatar go this way.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > My prayers go to People of Palestine against Israeli oppressor.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > Emil Khisamov
          >
          > >
          >
        • Irek Bikkinin
          Well, I am Volga Tatar (from Mishar group), but not Kazan Turkish. Kazan has many good for us, Mishars, but also it has many negative connotations for us. So
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 14, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Well, I am Volga Tatar (from Mishar group), but not Kazan Turkish.
            Kazan has many good for us, Mishars, but also it has many negative
            connotations for us. So we will never be Kazan Turkish, of course.

            Halim, you cannot call Sabirjan Mankurt. He is not a Mankurt. I hope
            you know the meaning of the word.

            I could add that Sabirjan is right about the language of our group.

            Irek Bikkinin.

            2009/1/14, pohur <pohur@...>:
            > My dear Mankurt,
            >
            > Personally I am a "Volga Tatar" born and raised in Turkiye. And
            > furthermore the correct terminology is "Kazan Turkish", my dear mankurt.
            >
            > Also just because you are probably living in Tataristan or Russia ,
            > does not mean that you represent Volga Tatars.
            >
            > As for Israel, you do not have to be an anti-semite to understand the
            > situation in Gazze. A little bit of empathy plus common sense is
            > enough to perceive what is going on.
            >
            > Halim Sibay Tugsavul
            >
            > --- In tatar-l@yahoogroups.com, SabirjanB@... wrote:
            >>
            >>
            >> Hi Jonathan,
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Thank you for your message in Tatar-L.? I am glad that the situation in
            >> Israel and Gaza is becoming a topic of discussions in the Tatar-L
            >> mailing list.? It is important for Tatars to start thinking about
            >> global issues, not just about regional issues, especially keeping in
            >> mind that Tatarstan might become an independent state in the future.?
            >> But I noticed that all the people who posted anti-Israeli messages on
            >> Tatar-L so far are not Volga Tatars - they are either Turks or Crimean
            >> Tatar members of the list.? In my opinion, Volga Tatars are much more
            >> nuanced in their views and probably more pro-Israel.? That's why any
            >> argumentation involving examples based on parallels with the
            >> Tatarstan's situation will fall on deaf ears. It bothers me sometimes
            >> that about 50 percent of all messages in the mailing groups that
            >> originally was meant to be for Volga Tatars are either in Turkish or
            >> Crimean Tatar language. I have nothing against Turks and Crimean Tatars
            >> but their participation in the mailing group shifts the focus of our
            >> discussions into a more conservative, religious and anti-Semitic
            > realm.? So, please remember that they don't represent the Volga Tatar
            > people.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Selemner belen,
            >>
            >> Sabirjan Badretdin
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> -----Original Message-----
            >> From: Jonathan Reiss <maristredfox@...>
            >> To: tatar-l@yahoogroups.com
            >> Sent: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 8:22 am
            >> Subject: [tatar-l] Re: Why Tatars should Support Palestine
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Comparing the Tatars' situation to the cause and the methods of the
            >>
            >> Palestinian terrorists is ignorant and offensive.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Do Tatars teach their children to hate all Jews (or Russians)? Do
            >>
            >> Tatars create children's shows where animal characters promote murder?
            >>
            >> Do Tatars dress their children in fake suicide bomber vests and train
            >>
            >> them in the use of machine guns?
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> I know that Israel is not blameless in this conflict, but when they
            >>
            >> are under constant attack from terrorists like Hamas, how are they
            >>
            >> supposed to react? How would France react if Belgium launched rockets
            >>
            >> across their shared border? Can you imagine what Russia would do if
            >>
            >> some fringe Tatar group started attacking the cities just outside of
            >>
            >> Tatarstan??
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> I feel great sympathy for the majority of the Palestinian people, who
            >>
            >> have gotten a raw deal for years. However, the fanatics and
            >>
            >> terrorists have made life even worse for those people. Every time
            >>
            >> Israel has given a concession, the terrorists have used it to increase
            >>
            >> attacks and tighten their stranglehold on the people they claim to be
            >>
            >> protecting.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> --- In tatar-l@yahoogroups.com, "EmilK" <tafik@> wrote:
            >>
            >> >
            >>
            >> > Sabirjan-bey, I find your Tatar Israeli comparance very disturbing.
            >>
            >> >
            >>
            >> > We are two absolutely different nations that have very little in
            >>
            >> common. The only thing I can think of is an old Russian reference to
            >>
            >> Tatars as "jews of the east".
            >>
            >> > First of all, we are not scattered nation and we do have our land,
            >>
            >> maybe not at full Tatar control but we do.
            >>
            >> > Second of all, we still live under oppressor and at certain
            >>
            >> historical moments we fight for our right to independence using any
            >>
            >> means necessary, diplomacy or firepower.
            >>
            >> > But if we would take on arms against Russia, will you support them
            >>
            >> with your speech of protecting Russian children?
            >>
            >> >
            >>
            >> > In our cause for independence we have much more in common with
            >>
            >> people of Palestine than with israelis.
            >>
            >> > Palestinians fight for their land and their independence with nation
            >>
            >> that treats them like animals at the zoo, deciding to let them out for
            >>
            >> a walk or not.
            >>
            >> > It's been not that long since Tatar language was referred to as
            >>
            >> "dog's language" in Russia, so go talk to israelis and listen to their
            >>
            >> reference to the people of Palestine. You will very quickly find
            >>
            >> parallels between Russians and Israelis, who not that long ago were
            >>
            >> almost same people.
            >>
            >> >
            >>
            >> > Comparing Tatar to Israeli is like comparing Tatar to Russian.
            >>
            >> >
            >>
            >> > Jewish influence of Russian Mass Media, Educational system and
            >>
            >> Entertainment channels is also very interesting. Why is there very
            >>
            >> little support to Turkic independence movement or simple participation
            >>
            >> in Information Outlets (movies, concerts, programs) by people with
            >>
            >> Turkic last names? We blame Russian government, but it's
            >>
            >> administration with Jewish last names that executes the orders.
            >>
            >> >
            >>
            >> > You would think that the nation that suffered such horrible
            >>
            >> atrocities as Holocaust would do everything possible not let other
            >>
            >> nation treated this way.
            >>
            >> > At this point, there is very little difference between what Nazis
            >>
            >> did and what Israel is doing.
            >>
            >> >
            >>
            >> > Your reference to Russian commentators and politicians "Just
            >>
            >> consider how Israel has been likened to Nazism, and the Gazans to
            >>
            >> refugees living in the Warsaw ghetto" is absolutely correct and as the
            >>
            >> same point of view is shared by Israeli Human Rights organizations.
            >>
            >> > " Al these facts clearly show that ethically Israel is on a much
            >>
            >> higher ground than the guerrillas of Hamas."
            >>
            >> > What ethics are you talking about?????
            >>
            >> > With millions displaced people, with no right to their land, treated
            >>
            >> like farm animals. Or you forgot what Russians did to our nation?
            >>
            >> >
            >>
            >> > This is far from "blind loyalty", "blind loyalty" is more what FOX,
            >>
            >> CNN will offer and off course Bush's press center.
            >>
            >> > But what's really upsetting is Tatars that find comfort in Israeli
            >>
            >> cause.
            >>
            >> > There was a Tatar lady, that changed her Tatar name to Russian,
            >>
            >> married to Russian-Jewish man, and named her children with
            >>
            >> Russian-Jewish names and blessed them off to serve in IDF. And then,
            >>
            >> she remembered her Tatar identity and created a group "Tatars for
            >>
            >> Israel". Which luckily turned out to be a joke.
            >>
            >> > It would be very sad to see another Tatar go this way.
            >>
            >> >
            >>
            >> > My prayers go to People of Palestine against Israeli oppressor.
            >>
            >> >
            >>
            >> > Emil Khisamov
            >>
            >> >
            >>
            >
            >
            >
          • mk
            Jonathan Reiss jewish name? possible objectivity? Tatarstan becoming independent, when hell freezes over ? why would they want to be independent, long
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 14, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              "Jonathan Reiss" jewish name?  possible objectivity?
               
              Tatarstan becoming independent, when "hell freezes over"?
              why would they want to be independent, long topic .. geoculture ..
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 2:15 PM
              Subject: Re: [tatar-l] Re: Why Tatars should Support Palestine

              Well, I am Volga Tatar (from Mishar group), but not Kazan Turkish.
              Kazan has many good for us, Mishars, but also it has many negative
              connotations for us. So we will never be Kazan Turkish, of course.

              Halim, you cannot call Sabirjan Mankurt. He is not a Mankurt. I hope
              you know the meaning of the word.

              I could add that Sabirjan is right about the language of our group.

              Irek Bikkinin.

              2009/1/14, pohur <pohur@yahoo. com>:
              > My dear Mankurt,
              >
              > Personally I am a "Volga Tatar" born and raised in Turkiye. And
              > furthermore the correct terminology is "Kazan Turkish", my dear mankurt.
              >
              > Also just because you are probably living in Tataristan or Russia ,
              > does not mean that you represent Volga Tatars.
              >
              > As for Israel, you do not have to be an anti-semite to understand the
              > situation in Gazze. A little bit of empathy plus common sense is
              > enough to perceive what is going on.
              >
              > Halim Sibay Tugsavul
              >
              > --- In tatar-l@yahoogroups .com, SabirjanB@.. . wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >> Hi Jonathan,
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Thank you for your message in Tatar-L.? I am glad that the situation in
              >> Israel and Gaza is becoming a topic of discussions in the Tatar-L
              >> mailing list.? It is important for Tatars to start thinking about
              >> global issues, not just about regional issues, especially keeping in
              >> mind that Tatarstan might become an independent state in the future.?
              >> But I noticed that all the people who posted anti-Israeli messages on
              >> Tatar-L so far are not Volga Tatars - they are either Turks or Crimean
              >> Tatar members of the list.? In my opinion, Volga Tatars are much more
              >> nuanced in their views and probably more pro-Israel.? That's why any
              >> argumentation involving examples based on parallels with the
              >> Tatarstan's situation will fall on deaf ears. It bothers me sometimes
              >> that about 50 percent of all messages in the mailing groups that
              >> originally was meant to be for Volga Tatars are either in Turkish or
              >> Crimean Tatar language. I have nothing against Turks and Crimean Tatars
              >> but their participation in the mailing group shifts the focus of our
              >> discussions into a more conservative, religious and anti-Semitic
              > realm.? So, please remember that they don't represent the Volga Tatar
              > people.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Selemner belen,
              >>
              >> Sabirjan Badretdin
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> -----Original Message-----
              >> From: Jonathan Reiss <maristredfox@ ...>
              >> To: tatar-l@yahoogroups .com
              >> Sent: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 8:22 am
              >> Subject: [tatar-l] Re: Why Tatars should Support Palestine
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Comparing the Tatars' situation to the cause and the methods of the
              >>
              >> Palestinian terrorists is ignorant and offensive.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Do Tatars teach their children to hate all Jews (or Russians)? Do
              >>
              >> Tatars create children's shows where animal characters promote murder?
              >>
              >> Do Tatars dress their children in fake suicide bomber vests and train
              >>
              >> them in the use of machine guns?
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> I know that Israel is not blameless in this conflict, but when they
              >>
              >> are under constant attack from terrorists like Hamas, how are they
              >>
              >> supposed to react? How would France react if Belgium launched rockets
              >>
              >> across their shared border? Can you imagine what Russia would do if
              >>
              >> some fringe Tatar group started attacking the cities just outside of
              >>
              >> Tatarstan??
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> I feel great sympathy for the majority of the Palestinian people, who
              >>
              >> have gotten a raw deal for years. However, the fanatics and
              >>
              >> terrorists have made life even worse for those people. Every time
              >>
              >> Israel has given a concession, the terrorists have used it to increase
              >>
              >> attacks and tighten their stranglehold on the people they claim to be
              >>
              >> protecting.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> --- In tatar-l@yahoogroups .com, "EmilK" <tafik@> wrote:
              >>
              >> >
              >>
              >> > Sabirjan-bey, I find your Tatar Israeli comparance very disturbing.
              >>
              >> >
              >>
              >> > We are two absolutely different nations that have very little in
              >>
              >> common. The only thing I can think of is an old Russian reference to
              >>
              >> Tatars as "jews of the east".
              >>
              >> > First of all, we are not scattered nation and we do have our land,
              >>
              >> maybe not at full Tatar control but we do.
              >>
              >> > Second of all, we still live under oppressor and at certain
              >>
              >> historical moments we fight for our right to independence using any
              >>
              >> means necessary, diplomacy or firepower.
              >>
              >> > But if we would take on arms against Russia, will you support them
              >>
              >> with your speech of protecting Russian children?
              >>
              >> >
              >>
              >> > In our cause for independence we have much more in common with
              >>
              >> people of Palestine than with israelis.
              >>
              >> > Palestinians fight for their land and their independence with nation
              >>
              >> that treats them like animals at the zoo, deciding to let them out for
              >>
              >> a walk or not.
              >>
              >> > It's been not that long since Tatar language was referred to as
              >>
              >> "dog's language" in Russia, so go talk to israelis and listen to their
              >>
              >> reference to the people of Palestine. You will very quickly find
              >>
              >> parallels between Russians and Israelis, who not that long ago were
              >>
              >> almost same people.
              >>
              >> >
              >>
              >> > Comparing Tatar to Israeli is like comparing Tatar to Russian.
              >>
              >> >
              >>
              >> > Jewish influence of Russian Mass Media, Educational system and
              >>
              >> Entertainment channels is also very interesting. Why is there very
              >>
              >> little support to Turkic independence movement or simple participation
              >>
              >> in Information Outlets (movies, concerts, programs) by people with
              >>
              >> Turkic last names? We blame Russian government, but it's
              >>
              >> administration with Jewish last names that executes the orders.
              >>
              >> >
              >>
              >> > You would think that the nation that suffered such horrible
              >>
              >> atrocities as Holocaust would do everything possible not let other
              >>
              >> nation treated this way.
              >>
              >> > At this point, there is very little difference between what Nazis
              >>
              >> did and what Israel is doing.
              >>
              >> >
              >>
              >> > Your reference to Russian commentators and politicians "Just
              >>
              >> consider how Israel has been likened to Nazism, and the Gazans to
              >>
              >> refugees living in the Warsaw ghetto" is absolutely correct and as the
              >>
              >> same point of view is shared by Israeli Human Rights organizations.
              >>
              >> > " Al these facts clearly show that ethically Israel is on a much
              >>
              >> higher ground than the guerrillas of Hamas."
              >>
              >> > What ethics are you talking about?????
              >>
              >> > With millions displaced people, with no right to their land, treated
              >>
              >> like farm animals. Or you forgot what Russians did to our nation?
              >>
              >> >
              >>
              >> > This is far from "blind loyalty", "blind loyalty" is more what FOX,
              >>
              >> CNN will offer and off course Bush's press center.
              >>
              >> > But what's really upsetting is Tatars that find comfort in Israeli
              >>
              >> cause.
              >>
              >> > There was a Tatar lady, that changed her Tatar name to Russian,
              >>
              >> married to Russian-Jewish man, and named her children with
              >>
              >> Russian-Jewish names and blessed them off to serve in IDF. And then,
              >>
              >> she remembered her Tatar identity and created a group "Tatars for
              >>
              >> Israel". Which luckily turned out to be a joke.
              >>
              >> > It would be very sad to see another Tatar go this way.
              >>
              >> >
              >>
              >> > My prayers go to People of Palestine against Israeli oppressor.
              >>
              >> >
              >>
              >> > Emil Khisamov
              >>
              >> >
              >>
              >
              >
              >

            • uh3ukhe
              FIRST OF ALLL,I DO THINK THAT THIS MAILIN-LIST SHOULD BE USED TO DISCUSS MATTERS RELATED TO THE TATAR WORLD.I AM SURE THAT MOST OF US ARE INTERESTED IN OTHER
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 15, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                FIRST OF ALLL,I DO THINK THAT THIS MAILIN-LIST SHOULD BE USED TO
                DISCUSS MATTERS RELATED TO THE TATAR WORLD.I AM SURE THAT MOST OF US
                ARE INTERESTED IN OTHER GEOPOLITICAL ISSUES,BUT THERE ARE OTHER
                AGENDA WHERE THESE MIGHT BE DISCUSSED.

                SECONDLY,MR SABIRJAN BADRETTIN,I AM GLAD THAT YOU SHOW YOUR TRUE FACE.

                YOU DIVIDE TATARS AND WISH THAT NON-WOLGA TATARS SHOULD BE EXCLUDED
                FROM THE MAILING LIST OR BE DEPRIVED FROM THE ROGHT TO MAKE
                CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE LIST.
                WHAT ARE TATARS FOR YOU?ONLY THE WOLGA TATARS?
                THE NAME OF THIS LIST IS TATAR-L,AND NOT WOLGA OR IDEL-URAL-L.
                I DON'T HAVE THE DESIRE TO DISCUSS THE ORGINS AND HISTORY OF TATAR
                PEOPLE HERE.
                BUT INM SURE THAT YOU KNOW,THAT THERE ARE 3 MAIN GROUPS OF TATARS,THE
                CRIMEAN TATARS,IDEL-URAL OR WOLGA TATARS AND NOGHAI TATARS
                I MYSELF AM A MIXTURE OF CRIMEAN TATARS AND NOGHAI.
                I REGARD ALL TATARS AS A UNITY AND AM VERY MUCH INTERESTED IN
                EVERYTHING CONCERNING IDEL-URAL.

                AND YOU SHOULD ALSO KNOW THAT TATARS ARE A PART OF THE TURKISH WORLD
                BELONGING TO THE KIPCHAK GROUP.
                I KNOW OUR GREAT YOLBASHCHI ALI AKISH PERSONALLY,AND KNOW THAT HE
                DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TATAR GROUPS AND THAT HE SHARES
                AND PROPAGATES THE ABOVE MENTIONED VIEWS.
                ALSO THE GREAT HEROINE OF THE TATAR PEOPLE,FAUZIYA BAYRAMOVA,WHOM I
                ADORE VERY MUCH SHARES AND PROPAGATES THE SAME VIEWS.
                THESE VIEWS ARE THE TRUTH.
                YOU CAN CLAIM,THAT YOU ARE NOT A TATAR BUT BULGAR,ALSO THEN YOU ARE
                OF TURKISH ORIIGIN,AS THE OLD BULGAR WERE A TURKISH PEOPLE.
                BACK TO OUR CASE:
                IF THIS GROUP WOULD BE A MAILING LIST ONLY FOR IDEL-URAL TATARS,THEN
                YOU WERE RIGHT.
                BUT THE NAME OF THE LIST IS TATAR-L!!!!!!!!!!!!
                THUS THIS LIST IS FOR ALL TATARS,IDEL-URAL,CRIMEANS,NOGHAI ETC.
                YOU REMEMBER,THAT AZAT BADRETTINOV WANTED TO EXCLUDE NON-WOLGA TATARS
                AND ESTABLISHED AN IDEL-URAL MAILING LIST.
                YOU CAN TRY THE SAME.
                I SUGGEST YOU TO READ BOOKS AND ARTICLES OF IDEL URAL-TATAR LEADERS.
                THEY ALL SHARE WITHOUT EXCEPTION PAN-TURKIST VIEWS.

                HERE I DO HAVE TO EXPRESS AN OPINION OF MINE WITHOUT INTENDING TO
                OFFEND ANYBODY
                I STRONGLY BELIEVE,THAT IT DEPENDS ON WHERE SOMEONE IS LIVING AND IS
                EARNING HIS LIFE;THIS AFFECTS THE COLUR OF THE VIEWS,WHETHER SOMEONE
                IS PRO-AMERICAN (IDENTICAL WTH PRO-ISRAEL) OR PRO-RUSSIAN.

                I INVITE YOU TO BE PRO-TATAR FOR OF ALL!!!!!!!

                Ihsan Yokuþ

                (Genuine Tatar: Crimean/Akkerman-Noghai/Yetishkul)
                ----------------------------------------------------------
                --- In tatar-l@yahoogroups.com, SabirjanB@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hi Jonathan,
                >
                >
                >
                > Thank you for your message in Tatar-L.? I am glad that the
                situation in
                > Israel and Gaza is becoming a topic of discussions in the Tatar-L
                > mailing list.? It is important for Tatars to start thinking about
                > global issues, not just about regional issues, especially keeping in
                > mind that Tatarstan might become an independent state in the
                future.?
                > But I noticed that all the people who posted anti-Israeli messages
                on
                > Tatar-L so far are not Volga Tatars - they are either Turks or
                Crimean
                > Tatar members of the list.? In my opinion, Volga Tatars are much
                more
                > nuanced in their views and probably more pro-Israel.? That's why any
                > argumentation involving examples based on parallels with the
                > Tatarstan's situation will fall on deaf ears. It bothers me
                sometimes
                > that about 50 percent of all messages in the mailing groups that
                > originally was meant to be for Volga Tatars are either in Turkish or
                > Crimean Tatar language. I have nothing against Turks and Crimean
                Tatars
                > but their participation in the mailing group shifts the focus of our
                > discussions into a more conservative, religious and anti-Semitic
                realm.? So, please remember that they don't represent the Volga Tatar
                people.
                >
                >
                >
                > Selemner belen,
                >
                > Sabirjan Badretdin
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Jonathan Reiss <maristredfox@...>
                > To: tatar-l@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 8:22 am
                > Subject: [tatar-l] Re: Why Tatars should Support Palestine
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Comparing the Tatars' situation to the cause and the methods of the
                >
                > Palestinian terrorists is ignorant and offensive.
                >
                >
                >
                > Do Tatars teach their children to hate all Jews (or Russians)? Do
                >
                > Tatars create children's shows where animal characters promote
                murder?
                >
                > Do Tatars dress their children in fake suicide bomber vests and
                train
                >
                > them in the use of machine guns?
                >
                >
                >
                > I know that Israel is not blameless in this conflict, but when they
                >
                > are under constant attack from terrorists like Hamas, how are they
                >
                > supposed to react? How would France react if Belgium launched
                rockets
                >
                > across their shared border? Can you imagine what Russia would do if
                >
                > some fringe Tatar group started attacking the cities just outside of
                >
                > Tatarstan??
                >
                >
                >
                > I feel great sympathy for the majority of the Palestinian people,
                who
                >
                > have gotten a raw deal for years. However, the fanatics and
                >
                > terrorists have made life even worse for those people. Every time
                >
                > Israel has given a concession, the terrorists have used it to
                increase
                >
                > attacks and tighten their stranglehold on the people they claim to
                be
                >
                > protecting.
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In tatar-l@yahoogroups.com, "EmilK" <tafik@> wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Sabirjan-bey, I find your Tatar Israeli comparance very
                disturbing.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > We are two absolutely different nations that have very little in
                >
                > common. The only thing I can think of is an old Russian reference to
                >
                > Tatars as "jews of the east".
                >
                > > First of all, we are not scattered nation and we do have our land,
                >
                > maybe not at full Tatar control but we do.
                >
                > > Second of all, we still live under oppressor and at certain
                >
                > historical moments we fight for our right to independence using any
                >
                > means necessary, diplomacy or firepower.
                >
                > > But if we would take on arms against Russia, will you support them
                >
                > with your speech of protecting Russian children?
                >
                > >
                >
                > > In our cause for independence we have much more in common with
                >
                > people of Palestine than with israelis.
                >
                > > Palestinians fight for their land and their independence with
                nation
                >
                > that treats them like animals at the zoo, deciding to let them out
                for
                >
                > a walk or not.
                >
                > > It's been not that long since Tatar language was referred to as
                >
                > "dog's language" in Russia, so go talk to israelis and listen to
                their
                >
                > reference to the people of Palestine. You will very quickly find
                >
                > parallels between Russians and Israelis, who not that long ago were
                >
                > almost same people.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Comparing Tatar to Israeli is like comparing Tatar to Russian.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Jewish influence of Russian Mass Media, Educational system and
                >
                > Entertainment channels is also very interesting. Why is there very
                >
                > little support to Turkic independence movement or simple
                participation
                >
                > in Information Outlets (movies, concerts, programs) by people with
                >
                > Turkic last names? We blame Russian government, but it's
                >
                > administration with Jewish last names that executes the orders.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > You would think that the nation that suffered such horrible
                >
                > atrocities as Holocaust would do everything possible not let other
                >
                > nation treated this way.
                >
                > > At this point, there is very little difference between what Nazis
                >
                > did and what Israel is doing.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Your reference to Russian commentators and politicians "Just
                >
                > consider how Israel has been likened to Nazism, and the Gazans to
                >
                > refugees living in the Warsaw ghetto" is absolutely correct and as
                the
                >
                > same point of view is shared by Israeli Human Rights organizations.
                >
                > > " Al these facts clearly show that ethically Israel is on a much
                >
                > higher ground than the guerrillas of Hamas."
                >
                > > What ethics are you talking about?????
                >
                > > With millions displaced people, with no right to their land,
                treated
                >
                > like farm animals. Or you forgot what Russians did to our nation?
                >
                > >
                >
                > > This is far from "blind loyalty", "blind loyalty" is more what
                FOX,
                >
                > CNN will offer and off course Bush's press center.
                >
                > > But what's really upsetting is Tatars that find comfort in Israeli
                >
                > cause.
                >
                > > There was a Tatar lady, that changed her Tatar name to Russian,
                >
                > married to Russian-Jewish man, and named her children with
                >
                > Russian-Jewish names and blessed them off to serve in IDF. And then,
                >
                > she remembered her Tatar identity and created a group "Tatars for
                >
                > Israel". Which luckily turned out to be a joke.
                >
                > > It would be very sad to see another Tatar go this way.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > My prayers go to People of Palestine against Israeli oppressor.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Emil Khisamov
                >
                > >
                >
              • Sadi Birbilen
                THANKS FOR SUPPORTERS FOR PALESTINE/ GAZZA AND SHAME ON SUPPORTERS FOR ISRAEL IN THE NAME OF HUMANITY.   because ISRAEL MEANS OCCUPATION AND OPPRESSION AND
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 15, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  THANKS FOR SUPPORTERS FOR PALESTINE/ GAZZA AND SHAME ON SUPPORTERS FOR ISRAEL IN THE NAME OF HUMANITY.
                    because ISRAEL MEANS OCCUPATION AND OPPRESSION AND MASSACRE/GENOCIDE, CHILD MURDERER AND ILLEGITIMATE
                  --- On Tue, 1/13/09, EmilK <tafik@...> wrote:
                  From: EmilK <tafik@...>
                  Subject: [tatar-l] Why Tatars should Support Palestine
                  To: tatar-l@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2009, 6:59 PM

                  Sabirjan-bey, I find your Tatar Israeli comparance very disturbing.

                  We are two absolutely different nations that have very little in common. The only thing I can think of is an old Russian reference to Tatars as "jews of the east".
                  First of all, we are not scattered nation and we do have our land, maybe not at full Tatar control but we do.
                  Second of all, we still live under oppressor and at certain historical moments we fight for our right to independence using any means necessary, diplomacy or firepower.
                  But if we would take on arms against Russia, will you support them with your speech of protecting Russian children?

                  In our cause for independence we have much more in common with people of Palestine than with israelis.
                  Palestinians fight for their land and their independence with nation that treats them like animals at the zoo, deciding to let them out for a walk or not.
                  It's been not that long since Tatar language was referred to as "dog's language" in Russia, so go talk to israelis and listen to their reference to the people of Palestine. You will very quickly find parallels between Russians and Israelis, who not that long ago were almost same people.

                  Comparing Tatar to Israeli is like comparing Tatar to Russian.

                  Jewish influence of Russian Mass Media, Educational system and Entertainment channels is also very interesting. Why is there very little support to Turkic independence movement or simple participation in Information Outlets (movies, concerts, programs) by people with Turkic last names? We blame Russian government, but it's administration with Jewish last names that executes the orders.

                  You would think that the nation that suffered such horrible atrocities as Holocaust would do everything possible not let other nation treated this way.
                  At this point, there is very little difference between what Nazis did and what Israel is doing.

                  Your reference to Russian commentators and politicians "Just consider how Israel has been likened to Nazism, and the Gazans to refugees living in the Warsaw ghetto" is absolutely correct and as the same point of view is shared by Israeli Human Rights organizations.
                  " Al these facts clearly show that ethically Israel is on a much higher ground than the guerrillas of Hamas."
                  What ethics are you talking about?????
                  With millions displaced people, with no right to their land, treated like farm animals. Or you forgot what Russians did to our nation?

                  This is far from "blind loyalty", "blind loyalty" is more what FOX, CNN will offer and off course Bush's press center.
                  But what's really upsetting is Tatars that find comfort in Israeli cause.
                  There was a Tatar lady, that changed her Tatar name to Russian, married to Russian-Jewish man, and named her children with Russian-Jewish names and blessed them off to serve in IDF. And then, she remembered her Tatar identity and created a group "Tatars for Israel". Which luckily turned out to be a joke.
                  It would be very sad to see another Tatar go this way.

                  My prayers go to People of Palestine against Israeli oppressor.

                  Emil Khisamov


                • Jonathan Reiss
                  MK, This is not the first time you have questioned my name, so I will lay out the facts about me for you. My mother is the daughter of Mishar Tatars. She was
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 16, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    MK,

                    This is not the first time you have questioned my name, so I will lay
                    out the facts about me for you. My mother is the daughter of Mishar
                    Tatars. She was born in the U.S. and her maiden name is Akchurin. My
                    father's family are Eastern European Jews, with several generations
                    here in the U.S.

                    Because I don't have a Tatar name, does that make me somehow less
                    qualified to share my thoughts and opinions on this board? Perhaps
                    being part of both worlds gives me a unique perspective on things.

                    If you want to talk about objectivity, then look at both sides of the
                    Israeli-Palestinian conflict, not just the Muslim side (although I am
                    loath to call terrorists like Hamas Muslims).

                    Yes, the Palestinians have generally gotten a raw deal from Israel.
                    Israel is not blameless in this conflict. However, Israel also has
                    every right to defend its citizens, regardless of the source of the
                    attack.

                    If Hamas truly cared about the Palestinian people, they would spend
                    their money NOT on rockets and fake suicide bomber vests for CHILDREN.
                    They would instead work to improve the lives of the people by
                    building schools and hospitals and by creating a viable economy and
                    jobs. Look at what the Israelis have done since World War II. They
                    didn't train their young men to infiltrate Berlin and blow themselves
                    up in crowded cafes. They invested in education, infrastructure and
                    technology.

                    I understand that Israel's blockade has made commerce difficult for
                    Gazans, so, Hamas must negotiate in good faith to stop the rocket
                    attacks and arms smuggling in exchange for open borders. It's like a
                    "chicken-and-egg" situation. Israel won't open the borders because
                    Hamas smuggles in rockets, and Hamas smuggles rockets because Israel
                    closes the borders.

                    As a side note, if Iran or the Arab nations actually gave a damn about
                    the Palestinians, they would send them food and medicine, not bullets
                    and bombs. However, if the Palestinians weren't suffering, these
                    nations would no longer have a reason to hate Israel, so they have no
                    real interest in helping the Palestinians.

                    Jonathan

                    --- In tatar-l@yahoogroups.com, "mk" <mktemir@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > "Jonathan Reiss" jewish name? possible objectivity?
                    >
                    > Tatarstan becoming independent, when "hell freezes over"?
                    > why would they want to be independent, long topic .. geoculture ..
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Irek Bikkinin
                    > To: tatar-l@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 2:15 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [tatar-l] Re: Why Tatars should Support Palestine
                    >
                    >
                    > Well, I am Volga Tatar (from Mishar group), but not Kazan Turkish.
                    > Kazan has many good for us, Mishars, but also it has many negative
                    > connotations for us. So we will never be Kazan Turkish, of course.
                    >
                    > Halim, you cannot call Sabirjan Mankurt. He is not a Mankurt. I hope
                    > you know the meaning of the word.
                    >
                    > I could add that Sabirjan is right about the language of our group.
                    >
                    > Irek Bikkinin.
                    >
                    > 2009/1/14, pohur <pohur@...>:
                    > > My dear Mankurt,
                    > >
                    > > Personally I am a "Volga Tatar" born and raised in Turkiye. And
                    > > furthermore the correct terminology is "Kazan Turkish", my dear
                    mankurt.
                    > >
                    > > Also just because you are probably living in Tataristan or Russia ,
                    > > does not mean that you represent Volga Tatars.
                    > >
                    > > As for Israel, you do not have to be an anti-semite to
                    understand the
                    > > situation in Gazze. A little bit of empathy plus common sense is
                    > > enough to perceive what is going on.
                    > >
                    > > Halim Sibay Tugsavul
                    > >
                    > > --- In tatar-l@yahoogroups.com, SabirjanB@ wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> Hi Jonathan,
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> Thank you for your message in Tatar-L.? I am glad that the
                    situation in
                    > >> Israel and Gaza is becoming a topic of discussions in the Tatar-L
                    > >> mailing list.? It is important for Tatars to start thinking about
                    > >> global issues, not just about regional issues, especially
                    keeping in
                    > >> mind that Tatarstan might become an independent state in the
                    future.?
                    > >> But I noticed that all the people who posted anti-Israeli
                    messages on
                    > >> Tatar-L so far are not Volga Tatars - they are either Turks or
                    Crimean
                    > >> Tatar members of the list.? In my opinion, Volga Tatars are
                    much more
                    > >> nuanced in their views and probably more pro-Israel.? That's
                    why any
                    > >> argumentation involving examples based on parallels with the
                    > >> Tatarstan's situation will fall on deaf ears. It bothers me
                    sometimes
                    > >> that about 50 percent of all messages in the mailing groups that
                    > >> originally was meant to be for Volga Tatars are either in
                    Turkish or
                    > >> Crimean Tatar language. I have nothing against Turks and
                    Crimean Tatars
                    > >> but their participation in the mailing group shifts the focus
                    of our
                    > >> discussions into a more conservative, religious and anti-Semitic
                    > > realm.? So, please remember that they don't represent the Volga
                    Tatar
                    > > people.
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> Selemner belen,
                    > >>
                    > >> Sabirjan Badretdin
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> -----Original Message-----
                    > >> From: Jonathan Reiss <maristredfox@>
                    > >> To: tatar-l@yahoogroups.com
                    > >> Sent: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 8:22 am
                    > >> Subject: [tatar-l] Re: Why Tatars should Support Palestine
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> Comparing the Tatars' situation to the cause and the methods of the
                    > >>
                    > >> Palestinian terrorists is ignorant and offensive.
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> Do Tatars teach their children to hate all Jews (or Russians)? Do
                    > >>
                    > >> Tatars create children's shows where animal characters promote
                    murder?
                    > >>
                    > >> Do Tatars dress their children in fake suicide bomber vests and
                    train
                    > >>
                    > >> them in the use of machine guns?
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> I know that Israel is not blameless in this conflict, but when they
                    > >>
                    > >> are under constant attack from terrorists like Hamas, how are they
                    > >>
                    > >> supposed to react? How would France react if Belgium launched
                    rockets
                    > >>
                    > >> across their shared border? Can you imagine what Russia would do if
                    > >>
                    > >> some fringe Tatar group started attacking the cities just
                    outside of
                    > >>
                    > >> Tatarstan??
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> I feel great sympathy for the majority of the Palestinian
                    people, who
                    > >>
                    > >> have gotten a raw deal for years. However, the fanatics and
                    > >>
                    > >> terrorists have made life even worse for those people. Every time
                    > >>
                    > >> Israel has given a concession, the terrorists have used it to
                    increase
                    > >>
                    > >> attacks and tighten their stranglehold on the people they claim
                    to be
                    > >>
                    > >> protecting.
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> --- In tatar-l@yahoogroups.com, "EmilK" <tafik@> wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >> >
                    > >>
                    > >> > Sabirjan-bey, I find your Tatar Israeli comparance very
                    disturbing.
                    > >>
                    > >> >
                    > >>
                    > >> > We are two absolutely different nations that have very little in
                    > >>
                    > >> common. The only thing I can think of is an old Russian
                    reference to
                    > >>
                    > >> Tatars as "jews of the east".
                    > >>
                    > >> > First of all, we are not scattered nation and we do have our
                    land,
                    > >>
                    > >> maybe not at full Tatar control but we do.
                    > >>
                    > >> > Second of all, we still live under oppressor and at certain
                    > >>
                    > >> historical moments we fight for our right to independence using any
                    > >>
                    > >> means necessary, diplomacy or firepower.
                    > >>
                    > >> > But if we would take on arms against Russia, will you support
                    them
                    > >>
                    > >> with your speech of protecting Russian children?
                    > >>
                    > >> >
                    > >>
                    > >> > In our cause for independence we have much more in common with
                    > >>
                    > >> people of Palestine than with israelis.
                    > >>
                    > >> > Palestinians fight for their land and their independence with
                    nation
                    > >>
                    > >> that treats them like animals at the zoo, deciding to let them
                    out for
                    > >>
                    > >> a walk or not.
                    > >>
                    > >> > It's been not that long since Tatar language was referred to as
                    > >>
                    > >> "dog's language" in Russia, so go talk to israelis and listen
                    to their
                    > >>
                    > >> reference to the people of Palestine. You will very quickly find
                    > >>
                    > >> parallels between Russians and Israelis, who not that long ago were
                    > >>
                    > >> almost same people.
                    > >>
                    > >> >
                    > >>
                    > >> > Comparing Tatar to Israeli is like comparing Tatar to Russian.
                    > >>
                    > >> >
                    > >>
                    > >> > Jewish influence of Russian Mass Media, Educational system and
                    > >>
                    > >> Entertainment channels is also very interesting. Why is there very
                    > >>
                    > >> little support to Turkic independence movement or simple
                    participation
                    > >>
                    > >> in Information Outlets (movies, concerts, programs) by people with
                    > >>
                    > >> Turkic last names? We blame Russian government, but it's
                    > >>
                    > >> administration with Jewish last names that executes the orders.
                    > >>
                    > >> >
                    > >>
                    > >> > You would think that the nation that suffered such horrible
                    > >>
                    > >> atrocities as Holocaust would do everything possible not let other
                    > >>
                    > >> nation treated this way.
                    > >>
                    > >> > At this point, there is very little difference between what Nazis
                    > >>
                    > >> did and what Israel is doing.
                    > >>
                    > >> >
                    > >>
                    > >> > Your reference to Russian commentators and politicians "Just
                    > >>
                    > >> consider how Israel has been likened to Nazism, and the Gazans to
                    > >>
                    > >> refugees living in the Warsaw ghetto" is absolutely correct and
                    as the
                    > >>
                    > >> same point of view is shared by Israeli Human Rights organizations.
                    > >>
                    > >> > " Al these facts clearly show that ethically Israel is on a much
                    > >>
                    > >> higher ground than the guerrillas of Hamas."
                    > >>
                    > >> > What ethics are you talking about?????
                    > >>
                    > >> > With millions displaced people, with no right to their land,
                    treated
                    > >>
                    > >> like farm animals. Or you forgot what Russians did to our nation?
                    > >>
                    > >> >
                    > >>
                    > >> > This is far from "blind loyalty", "blind loyalty" is more
                    what FOX,
                    > >>
                    > >> CNN will offer and off course Bush's press center.
                    > >>
                    > >> > But what's really upsetting is Tatars that find comfort in
                    Israeli
                    > >>
                    > >> cause.
                    > >>
                    > >> > There was a Tatar lady, that changed her Tatar name to Russian,
                    > >>
                    > >> married to Russian-Jewish man, and named her children with
                    > >>
                    > >> Russian-Jewish names and blessed them off to serve in IDF. And
                    then,
                    > >>
                    > >> she remembered her Tatar identity and created a group "Tatars for
                    > >>
                    > >> Israel". Which luckily turned out to be a joke.
                    > >>
                    > >> > It would be very sad to see another Tatar go this way.
                    > >>
                    > >> >
                    > >>
                    > >> > My prayers go to People of Palestine against Israeli oppressor.
                    > >>
                    > >> >
                    > >>
                    > >> > Emil Khisamov
                    > >>
                    > >> >
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Elis Bekir
                    Dear members of tatar-l,   I m usually a quiet member of this list but reading the last comments I just couldn t resist not replying. I ve studied
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 16, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear members of tatar-l,
                       
                      I'm usually a quiet member of this list but reading the last comments I just couldn't resist not replying. I've studied Nationalism and I'm currenly studying International Relations- Conflict Resolution (in my disertation thesis on Tatars I even used some materials written by Mr. Sabirjan and I'm now revolted against his remarks and opinions).
                      I believe that saying that Tatars should support Israel or Palestinians is so wrong! no nation/ ethnic group can be expected to support another! let's take this individually and not globally! I will not support an ideology just because we share the same religion, but i would dig into more information and try to make my own opinion unbiased by the country i live in or by my ethnicity. I was educated to be against nationalism and pro multiculturalism and not to judge people according to which nation/ethnicity they belong to.
                      All these comments on who is who, whether he/she is a Crimean Tatar or Volga Tatar reminds me of the 1st reason why the Tatars do not have a state anymore. Instead of thinking and acting against a common "enemy", they ended up fighting against each other.. that's why Tatars (and i speak about all the 20 m Tatars in the world) are now assimilated to a great extent and will eventually lose their identity.
                      Let's end this dabate here and focus on other aspects that concern us all.
                       
                      Sincerely,
                      Elis Bekir

                    • mk
                      assimilated to a great extent this goes both ways will eventually lose their identity not sure about this. ... From: Elis Bekir To: tatar-l@yahoogroups.com
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jan 16, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        assimilated to a great extent
                         
                                this goes both ways
                         
                         
                        will eventually lose their identity
                         
                                not sure about this.
                         
                         
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:04 PM
                        Subject: Re: [tatar-l] Re: Why Tatars should Support Palestine

                        Dear members of tatar-l,
                         
                        I'm usually a quiet member of this list but reading the last comments I just couldn't resist not replying. I've studied Nationalism and I'm currenly studying International Relations- Conflict Resolution (in my disertation thesis on Tatars I even used some materials written by Mr. Sabirjan and I'm now revolted against his remarks and opinions).
                        I believe that saying that Tatars should support Israel or Palestinians is so wrong! no nation/ ethnic group can be expected to support another! let's take this individually and not globally! I will not support an ideology just because we share the same religion, but i would dig into more information and try to make my own opinion unbiased by the country i live in or by my ethnicity. I was educated to be against nationalism and pro multiculturalism and not to judge people according to which nation/ethnicity they belong to.
                        All these comments on who is who, whether he/she is a Crimean Tatar or Volga Tatar reminds me of the 1st reason why the Tatars do not have a state anymore. Instead of thinking and acting against a common "enemy", they ended up fighting against each other.. that's why Tatars (and i speak about all the 20 m Tatars in the world) are now assimilated to a great extent and will eventually lose their identity.
                        Let's end this dabate here and focus on other aspects that concern us all.
                         
                        Sincerely,
                        Elis Bekir

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