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OT re CncPRO group banning

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  • ballendo
    Hello fellow CNC ers, (I apologise to members of multiple groups who receive multiple copies. I am posting this on groups where potential cnc control customers
    Message 1 of 4 , May 1, 2002
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      Hello fellow CNC'ers,

      (I apologise to members of multiple groups who receive multiple
      copies. I am posting this on groups where potential cnc control
      customers may be looking...)

      <begin msg>
      Tonight I was banned from a yahoo group. The first time ever.
      Yeager Automation (YA), a group for users of CncPRO and AceConverter.
      I had been a member since its inception, and had posted quite a few
      helpful messages (according to the responses given).

      I became aware of this tonight when "My groups" did not list me as a
      member of YA. I thought it might be a yahoo blip (but maybe not), so
      I rejoined and posted the first message below. Below that are my
      posts for this evening. I left the YA group site to take a look at
      Jeff Davis's new roll-your-own-preload-ballscrews(nice!), and when I
      came back I had been banned.

      Lately a lot of YA group members have been concerned by the lack of
      support of CncPRO. Doug Yeager, the author, no longer answered direct
      group requests for help or advice with his program(s). As others
      wondered what to do, I suggested Master5 (and Mach1, its successor)
      by Art Fenerty. Art has been giving EXCELLENT support. A fact you can
      see by looking at the master5 yahoo group. You can also see the lack
      of support given in the last few months by YeagerAutomation in their
      yahoo group. (What you won't see is the messages I left recommending
      master5 to those who WERE LOOKING FOR AN ALTERNATIVE! They've been
      deleted from the archive... Whether my "other" posts will remain I
      will not know)

      So this is presented so that you may make your own determination as
      to whether you want to use CncPRO; knowing that the moderator of the
      group feels the need to censor posts, and ban active members. You can
      see that I still answered posts of members that didn't have anything
      to do with YA directly:

      I understand that some will be pleased to hear of my banning. OK. The
      facts are here posted so that others can make up their own minds
      about using CncPRO, or other YA products.

      Ballendo

      First here is the welcome message for the group, sent to all members
      upon joining:

      >Subject: Welcome to yeagerautomation
      >
      >Group discussion on products provided by Yeager Automation and
      >related issues. Talk about whatever you wish. If there are specific
      >bug or feature issues, be aware that i don't read all the posts, so
      >you may have to address me directly.
      >
      >Only one rule: NO FLAMING!
      >
      >thx,
      >doug yeager
      >yeager automation
      >
      ********** tonights' posts ******************************************

      Hello Jeff, List,

      You and others in this group might like to know that my recent
      messages were deleted and I was apparently removed from the group.
      More than a few messages were removed, and I'm not sure who did it,
      but it sure smells of censorship...

      Many of these messages were suggestions to try Master5, for Art F
      over there IS providing support like Doug USED TO...

      The latest one included the statement that "saying you are supporting
      a product is not the same as doing so..."

      THESE MESSAGES WERE RESPONSES TO OTHERS WHO, LIKE JEFFS MESSAGE
      BELOW, ARE WONDERING WHAT TO MAKE OF THE PRESENT SITUATION...

      I'd sure like to know what happened?!? Doug, do you know?

      As I keep a record of all that I post, I will wait for an answer
      here. If none is provided, I will repost my deleted messages in other
      CNC groups. (along with this "explanation" note)

      Ballendo

      P.S. As a member of over 65 groups, none of which were similarly
      affected, I DON'T think this was a Yahoo error...

      --- In yeagerautomation@y..., "jeffdavis516" <cadman@p...> wrote:
      > If Doug has time to answer your messages why can't he send one
      little
      > note to this group just to say he is around and working? I might
      > make some of us feel a little better.
      >
      > Jeff Davis
      > http://www.homecnc.info
      >
      > --- In yeagerautomation@y..., "Rien Kleinjan" <rienkleinjan@s...>
      > wrote:
      > > Hello everyone,
      > >
      > > i just recieved a message from Doug Yeager that he is still
      > supporting
      > > cncpro. So don't worry......he is a busy man.
      > > Some people talk about Master5 as an alternative for cncpro. I
      did
      > compare
      > > the programs but i'm sorry for the users of master5.....it is not
      > that
      > > profesional as it looks.
      > >
      > > Rien Kleinjan
      **********************************************************************
      *
      Rian,

      I am quite fond of CncPRO. I am frustrated that doug no longer feels
      the need to answer questions posed directly to him on this forum,
      which I think HE started! (I understand that he may not read it
      everyday, but weeks have gone by with no response from him...)

      Master5 is as you say limited to 8192 steps/second. It ALSO runs
      directly in windows without additional "hardware". Its successor,
      Mach1, will not/does not have the same speed limitations. And the
      user interface will be user-configurable!

      Furthermore, the Master5 CVV IS TRUE CVV, not a one-entity lookahead.
      Most important, view the master5 group messages. Look at the time
      frame between when a question is asked, and when Art himself answers
      it!

      After all, the recent threads have been largely about whether this
      was a "dead" program or not, And I'm NOT the one posting them...

      Hope this helps,

      Ballendo (saving a copy just in case)

      P.S. rather interesting to see a response to an "unlisted" message,
      don't you think?

      --- In yeagerautomation@y..., "Rien Kleinjan" <rienkleinjan@s...>
      wrote:
      > I'm not only staring at the controls, i'm even trying to work with
      master5 ! Master5 is not fast enough to do 4096 pulses/mm at
      1500mm/min and cncpro does !
      > So if you think Master5 is better thats your choice.
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: ballendo
      > To: yeagerautomation@y...
      > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 1:09 PM
      > Subject: [yeagerautomation] Re: support cncpro (NOT)
      >
      >
      > Don't worry?!?
      >
      > Saying you are supporting something and actually doing it are two
      > different things...
      >
      > When we have had entire threads go by with no input from Doug
      (even
      > when he was specifically asked to comment), That is
      NOT "support",
      > IMO...
      >
      > Ballendo
      >
      > P.S. With respect to master5, try similar CVV dependent files on
      > both. M5 CVV blows CncPRO away! As to the "look" of M5, the new
      > version called mach1 will be configurable to support different
      looks.
      > Besides, its the guts that matter, IMO. Unless you are staring at
      the
      > control as you are making parts...
      >
      > --- In yeagerautomation@y..., "Rien Kleinjan" <rienkleinjan@s...>
      > wrote:
      > > Hello everyone,
      > >
      > > i just recieved a message from Doug Yeager that he is still
      > supporting
      > > cncpro. So don't worry......he is a busy man.
      > > Some people talk about Master5 as an alternative for cncpro. I
      did
      > compare
      > > the programs but i'm sorry for the users of master5.....it is
      not
      > that
      > > profesional as it looks.
      > >
      > > Rien Kleinjan
      >
      **********************************************************************
      *

      Randy,

      If by "rapiding" you mean an axis move with MDI, then there is an
      easy explanation... The need for a jog routine to tightly integrate
      itself with the keyboard; which a rapid move to a specific location
      does not need. The extra "reads" of the keyboard status could easily
      affect the sound you hear as the motor(s) move.

      Hope this helps,

      Ballendo

      In yeagerautomation@y..., Randy Gordon-Gilmore <zephyrus@r...> wrote:
      <snip>
      >But I found out that 20ipm jogging is not the same as 20ipm rapiding
      >(I can hear the difference in the tone the motors make) I was never
      >able to get an explanation from Doug about that.
      <snip>
      **********************************************************************
      *

      Les,

      See my previous post to Randy re losing steps. If one does not use
      the robotic-grade cable, AND if it is not constrained to a "rolling"
      motion (using instead what wire mfrs. call "tick-tock", which is like
      holding two ends of a loop and moving them together, apart, together,
      apart, etc.); you may find wire failure as early as 15000 cycles. The
      SAME cable properly used might make 300,000... a robotics-grade cable
      might make 3 million cycles.

      Worth knowing, IMO,

      Ballendo

      --- In yeagerautomation@y..., "paladinironworks"
      <paladinironworks@h...> wrote:
      > Your lead screw is 20 TPI?
      >
      > Double check steps per inch.
      >
      > You should be able to cut .06 deep at about 3 IPM I would think in
      > G10 Epoxy glass.
      > I hope you get it going, I know the feeling, my plasma cutter
      > started losing steps lately.
      >
      > Les
      **********************************************************************
      *

      Randy,

      Nearly all 3 axis controls default to xy plane for arcs (G17), BUT...

      Expressly STATING G17 IS good programming practice! It is part of a
      standard safety block, as you surmised. A cnc control should
      not "hiccup" on a G17... (so take it out if cncpro requires that you
      do so, but keep the habit of including it so you won't be surprised
      at other machines.)

      Hope this helps,

      Ballendo

      -- In yeagerautomation@y..., Randy Gordon-Gilmore <zephyrus@r...>
      wrote:
      > At 09:58 PM 4/29/02 -0400, Ron wrote:
      >
      > >I still don't understand why you are using G17.
      > >There is nothing you describe to reguire it.
      >
      > OK, I'll leave it out. I thought that was a standard setup type of
      > command... But the less things to go wrong, the better! :-)
      >
      > Best regards,
      >
      > Randy
      >
      > Randy Gordon-Gilmore ,----.___________ ______________
      _________________
    • lasernerd2
      Ballendo, What did you expect to happen? If someone came into your store, or factory and started talking to your customers about how someone else s competing
      Message 2 of 4 , May 1, 2002
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        Ballendo,

        What did you expect to happen? If someone came into your store, or
        factory and started talking to your customers about how someone
        else's competing product was so much better than yours, would you
        just sit there and let him continue?

        It's rude and disrespectful to publicly talk badly of a product or a
        person in that person's or manufacturer's presence.

        If you really wanted to get the idea across, you should have
        individually e-mailed those who seem to be interested in selecting
        another control.

        Or perhaps advertising the other product on one or more of many
        other CNC-related forums?

        Regards,

        Robin
      • ballendo
        Hello Robin, Let me put this in perspective, using your store analogy. (Although the YA group is not a store; it is a CUSTOMER meeting area, and by the
        Message 3 of 4 , May 2, 2002
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          Hello Robin,

          Let me put this in perspective, using your "store" analogy. (Although
          the YA group is not a store; it is a CUSTOMER meeting area, and by
          the message given upon joining, the mfr may or may not be present
          unless called... in other words, it is offsite for the mfr.)

          So here goes:

          I walk into the "store" of YA. Except for a bunch of others who have
          purchased YA products, no one appears to BE around... The people
          (customers) in the "store" are upset and wondering why they can't get
          any help. Also wondering WHY the store is open, but the people who
          run it are gone...
          They see me, and knowing of my experience with many CNC products from
          reading my words,; they ask me what they should do to get support. I
          suggest another product, AND state why.
          In their frustration they continue to ask for more details about what
          I think are their options.

          Now that IS what happened... So to answer your questions:

          If I were the store owner, I would see this situation when I returned
          or visited.
          My FIRST attempt would be to calm MY customers (remember that
          Ballendo IS one of YA's customers TOO) by letting them know that
          their concerns are being considered and solutions are soon to come.

          IF, after this, a "rowdy" customer(In my opinion as mfr. and owner of
          the "store") continued his words of another product while in
          my "customer lounge", I would TAKE HIM ASIDE PRIVATELY and ask him to
          stop, OR leave. (Remembering this "rowdy" customer of mine can do
          more damage by telling others that I am unfair, or unreliable, so it
          is in my best interest to try to find a common ground solution.)

          So THAT! is what I would have done. If there was no result, THEN I
          would follow up the warning, and mention removal from the "store".
          Only after all this would I actually "BAN" a customer!

          In actual fact, none of this was done by YA. NO announcement of
          the "return" of the store owner or employees... No request to stop...
          Nothing at all, until in the middle of some helpful posts to his
          other customers (akin to Ballendo "going out to the car" to look at
          someones ballscrew retrofit), The doors were locked shut...

          Your message suggests that I should have gone "behind YA's back" to
          state that I felt the product or company was behaving badly. I do not
          agree with this. Much better in my opinion, to state the case
          directly TO the mfr or person. This gives them the ability to
          respond. (Please do remember that the group where this all happened
          EXISTS to talk about YA's product or company problems and solutions!)

          Moving on to your next suggestion: It is not possible for me to
          identify individually the people who are investigating a purchase of
          cnc controls... And in most of the groups of which I am a member, the
          question of "Which cnc control software/company is 'best'?" comes up
          frequently. Furthermore, my ability to do as you suggest was cut off
          when YA banned me, as those email addresses were no longer available
          to me.

          I do not "advertise" any one product over another. I do have
          preferences, and they change over time as products and companies get
          better, or worse... Personally I use about 20 products, and 5
          products regularly (including SuperCAM; tho' my taig tools are not
          currently cnc.)

          All that I write is simply one persons OPINION. And the computer
          makes it easy to delete my words, or reject my messages... And
          America makes everybody free to do so, or to speak out. Thank you for
          sharing your opinion.

          Hope this helps,

          Ballendo

          P.S. I really have no desire or need to continue this. Certainly
          enough group bandwidth has already been used. Any further discussion
          should be offline, IMO.

          --- In taigtools@y..., "lasernerd2" <lasernerd@h...> wrote:
          > Ballendo,
          >
          > What did you expect to happen? If someone came into your store, or
          > factory and started talking to your customers about how someone
          > else's competing product was so much better than yours, would you
          > just sit there and let him continue?
          >
          > It's rude and disrespectful to publicly talk badly of a product or
          > a person in that person's or manufacturer's presence.
          >
          > If you really wanted to get the idea across, you should have
          > individually e-mailed those who seem to be interested in selecting
          > another control.
          >
          > Or perhaps advertising the other product on one or more of many
          > other CNC-related forums?
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Robin
        • lasernerd2
          Well, you can come up with as many excuses as you like, but you re the one who is banned. Besides, if you detest the product/producer so much, then why do you
          Message 4 of 4 , May 2, 2002
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            Well, you can come up with as many excuses as you like, but you're
            the one who is banned.

            Besides, if you detest the product/producer so much, then why do you
            feel you've lost something (and apparently you do as you brought it
            up here)?

            If I were you, I'd cut my losses and move over to CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO.
            There, people will not ban you for talking about different products.

            By the by, if you feel this should be taken up in e-mail, why did
            you make your original post? One really shouldn't air one's dirty
            laundry in public.

            Now, I'm not saying all this to agrivate you, or to say "I told you
            so". You are an excellent contributing member of this group, and I
            do look forward to your continued participation.

            Live and learn.

            Regards,

            Robin
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