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Re: [taigtools] 1/2" end mill adapter

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  • Al Schoepp
    Stan, I would think the tricky part with this method would be aligning the drill bit with the center of the arbor. At the speeds it will be used at and the
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 5, 2002
      Stan,

      I would think the tricky part with this method would be aligning the drill
      bit with the center of the arbor. At the speeds it will be used at and the
      desired purpose it must be very accurate. That's were the lathe would be
      handy as the head and tailstock should already be aligned if they are
      properly setup.

      For now I've decided to get a Sherline 3/8" endmill holder. I would think
      that this would be something that people selling accessories for the Taig
      would take advantage of. I would rather buy and endmill adapter than try
      to make one without a lathe.

      Al

      At 10:36 AM 05/02/2002 -0500, you wrote:
      >Al;
      >
      >Mount the arbor on the quill. Hold a center drill vertically in the
      >vise. Locate the drill on the center of the arbor. Lock the table in
      >both axis. Enlarge to a bit less than final hole size by step
      >drilling. Once almost to size, either ream or finish to size with a
      >boring tool held in the vise. If boring, set the tool with the tip dead
      >on the X or Y axis. Unlock only that axis and move the table to control
      >the boring tool depth of cut. Cross drill and tap for set screw, deburr
      >the inside of the set screw hole - a length of drill rod with the end
      >cut to a sharp 20 degree tip as in a paternmakers reamer makes this
      >easy, or a ball stone or burr on a dremel tool does the job nicely.
      >
      >Nice thing about this approach is that you are sure the bore in the
      >arbor is dead on the quill centerline.
      >
      >Stan
      >
      >Al Schoepp wrote:
      > >
      > > I would like to make a few of these up but don't have access to a lathe,
      > > any suggestions on how best to do it with just a mill. I do plan on making
      > > a flycutter which I can do on the mill.
      > >
      > > Al
      > >
      > > At 11:04 PM 04/02/2002 -0800, you wrote:
      > > >Like these?
      > > >http://www.cartertools.com/ntaig11.jpg
      > > >http://www.cartertools.com/sbach03.jpg
      > > >http://www.cartertools.com/newjose4.html
      > > >felice@... is Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter. See our web
      > pages
      > > >http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html
      > > >
      > > >----- Original Message -----
      > > >From: <spsweene@...>
      > > >To: <taigtools@yahoogroups.com>
      > > >Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 10:31 PM
      > > >Subject: [taigtools] 1/2" end mill adapter
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > Hi all,
      > > > > I'm new to this & am in the process of building a CNC mill using
      > parts
      > > > > >From TAIG. My question is; Has anyone tried making an adapter to
      > use 1/2"
      > > >end
      > > > > mills out of a blank arbor? There appear to be loads of
      > inexpensive end
      > > > > mills with 1/2" and 3/8" shanks but they won't fit in the standard TAIG
      > > > > collets.
      > > > >
      > > > > Thanks
      > > > > Pat
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > To Post a message, send it to: taigtools@...
      > > > >
      > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      > taigtools-unsubscribe@...
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Let the chips fly!
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >To Post a message, send it to: taigtools@...
      > > >
      > > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: taigtools-unsubscribe@...
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >Let the chips fly!
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > > To Post a message, send it to: taigtools@...
      > >
      > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: taigtools-unsubscribe@...
      > >
      > > Let the chips fly!
      > >
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >To Post a message, send it to: taigtools@...
      >
      >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: taigtools-unsubscribe@...
      >
      >
      >
      >Let the chips fly!
      >
      >
      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Stan Stocker
      Al; Probably a good choice if the em holder from Sherline fits up well! But if you think about it, you find center all the time in milling operations, to
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 5, 2002
        Al;

        Probably a good choice if the em holder from Sherline fits up well!

        But if you think about it, you find center all the time in milling
        operations, to better than a thou with care. You just have to think
        upside down, picking up the edge of a cylinder held on the spindle with
        the tool on the table.

        The quickest way to get to dead center on a cylinder is to pick up an
        edge close to the max on the y axis, then move half the workpiece
        diameter + half the edge finder or pin/drill diameter in. Pick up an X
        axis edge, move half the distance + half the tool. Repeat once again
        starting with the y axis then the x axis and you'll be dead on center,
        to better than a thou with no fancy footwork required, just the usual
        keeping track of backlash and reading the dials in good light. Gotta
        love trig, plug in fairly good starting conditions and the solution
        point converges rapidly!

        By boring to final size rather than drilling, any off center or out of
        round nature of the hole is removed, as you are automatically referenced
        to the axis of rotation.

        For precision hole making on a lathe, I'd never use the tailstock to
        hold the drill except to open up the hole leaving 10 thou or more for
        boring. The boring bar is held on the carriage. Even if you have your
        tailstock dead on center, the variations on all but the most expensive
        drill chucks over the range of the chuck will toss you a thou or two,
        maybe more, off center.

        You could pull this stunt off holding the arbor in a vise, but this
        looses the self aligning nature of the boring operation. I have bored
        cylinders on the mill better than a half thou concentric with the turned
        OD, but the setup requires a tenths reading indicator and an appropriate
        way to hold the indicator to the spindle, not to mention very good V
        blocks to get things truly perpendicular. Easy on an R8 sized mill,
        using an Indicol holder, but likely not so easy on a Taig mill.

        You'll need a spacer behind the Sherline em holder I think, as their
        spindles don't have a register. I know this effects using Sherline
        chucks on the lathe, but don't know if this applies to the end mill
        adapters.

        Please post how it works out for you.

        Cheers,
        Stan

        Al Schoepp wrote:
        >
        > Stan,
        >
        > I would think the tricky part with this method would be aligning the drill
        > bit with the center of the arbor. At the speeds it will be used at and the
        > desired purpose it must be very accurate. That's were the lathe would be
        > handy as the head and tailstock should already be aligned if they are
        > properly setup.
        >
        > For now I've decided to get a Sherline 3/8" endmill holder. I would think
        > that this would be something that people selling accessories for the Taig
        > would take advantage of. I would rather buy and endmill adapter than try
        > to make one without a lathe.
        >
        > Al
        >
        <snipped>
      • Tony Jeffree
        ... Take a look at the Taig spindle nose. At the shoulder end of the 3/4-16 thread, there is a short section that is plain turned; that is the register. If
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 6, 2002
          At 09:09 06/02/2002 -0800, you wrote:
          >Stan:
          >
          >|-----Original Message-----
          >|From: Stan Stocker [mailto:skstocker@...]
          >|Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 10:01 PM
          >|To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
          >|Subject: Re: [taigtools] 1/2" end mill adapter
          >
          >|You'll need a spacer behind the Sherline em holder I think, as their
          >|spindles don't have a register. I know this effects using Sherline
          >|chucks on the lathe, but don't know if this applies to the end mill
          >|adapters.
          >
          >I've not come across the term "register" used in this context. Could you
          >please explain.

          Take a look at the Taig spindle nose. At the shoulder end of the 3/4-16
          thread, there is a short section that is plain turned; that is the
          register. If you look at one of the chucks or blank arbors, you will find
          that the thread has been bored out at the back of the chuck to match this
          register. If the register on the spindle is concentric with the spindle
          and is a close fit with the matching bore at the back end of the chuck or
          arbor, the register will tend to keep the chuck/arbor on axis, the runout
          (of the chuck/arbor) will be considerably reduced, and you will get more
          repeatable behaviour when the chuck/arbor is removed & re-fitted. If the
          register is a loose fit, then it doesn't have the desired effect.

          Regards,
          Tony
        • Al Schoepp
          ... This all assumes that the outside of the adapter is round and that the piece was originally made so that it turned true. I would think you would have to
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 6, 2002
            At 01:00 AM 06/02/2002 -0500, you wrote:
            >The quickest way to get to dead center on a cylinder is to pick up an
            >edge close to the max on the y axis, then move half the workpiece
            >diameter + half the edge finder or pin/drill diameter in. Pick up an X
            >axis edge, move half the distance + half the tool. Repeat once again
            >starting with the y axis then the x axis and you'll be dead on center,
            >to better than a thou with no fancy footwork required, just the usual
            >keeping track of backlash and reading the dials in good light. Gotta
            >love trig, plug in fairly good starting conditions and the solution
            >point converges rapidly!

            This all assumes that the outside of the adapter is round and that the
            piece was originally made so that it turned true. I would think you would
            have to take at least a light cut off the sides to ensure that is correct.

            I agree it would be possible and I may yet end up giving it a try but I
            personally would prefer to buy something like that if it were available and
            spend my time making my projects rather than spend time making something
            like this so I can then make the projects.

            Al


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Carol & Jerry Jankura
            ... I ve not come across the term register used in this context. Could you please explain. Thanks, -- Carol & Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio So many toys,
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 6, 2002
              Stan:

              |-----Original Message-----
              |From: Stan Stocker [mailto:skstocker@...]
              |Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 10:01 PM
              |To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
              |Subject: Re: [taigtools] 1/2" end mill adapter

              |You'll need a spacer behind the Sherline em holder I think, as their
              |spindles don't have a register. I know this effects using Sherline
              |chucks on the lathe, but don't know if this applies to the end mill
              |adapters.

              I've not come across the term "register" used in this context. Could you
              please explain.

              Thanks,

              -- Carol & Jerry Jankura
              Strongsville, Ohio
              So many toys, so little time....
            • Stan Stocker
              The register is the unthreaded portion between the shoulder of the spindle and the threads. This is a contact area that is a very close fit with the
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 6, 2002
                The register is the unthreaded portion between the shoulder of the
                spindle and the threads. This is a contact area that is a very close
                fit with the unthreaded area on the headstock end of the
                chuck/arbor/whatever. Rather than relying on the thread wedging action
                to be self centering, this area provides centering of whatever you are
                mounting to the spindle before the threads begin to tighten. Done
                right, a register reduces runout quite a bit. If the register to chuck
                bore is a sloppy fit, it doesn't do much for you, as is seen on the
                chucks provided with 9x20 lathes.

                On larger lathes with threaded spindles, the register is often larger
                than the OD of the spindle threads, so to make a backing plate, you bore
                a stepped bore, one the minor diameter of the spindle threads all the
                way through, and a larger bore to mate to the register. You then cut
                the internal threads, mount the backing plate, and finish up the
                machining on the part of the back plate that the chuck mounts to.

                Stan

                Carol & Jerry Jankura wrote:
                >
                > Stan:
                >
                > |-----Original Message-----
                > |From: Stan Stocker [mailto:skstocker@...]
                > |Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 10:01 PM
                > |To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
                > |Subject: Re: [taigtools] 1/2" end mill adapter
                >
                > |You'll need a spacer behind the Sherline em holder I think, as their
                > |spindles don't have a register. I know this effects using Sherline
                > |chucks on the lathe, but don't know if this applies to the end mill
                > |adapters.
                >
                > I've not come across the term "register" used in this context. Could you
                > please explain.
                >
                > Thanks,
                >
                > -- Carol & Jerry Jankura
                > Strongsville, Ohio
                > So many toys, so little time....
                >
                >
                > To Post a message, send it to: taigtools@...
                >
                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: taigtools-unsubscribe@...
                >
                > Let the chips fly!
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • toddfoh
                Does anyone know the actual specifications for the register and counterbore on the spindle and arbor? If we knew the min/max diameters on each of these parts,
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 6, 2002
                  Does anyone know the actual specifications for the register and
                  counterbore on the spindle and arbor? If we knew the min/max
                  diameters on each of these parts, we could stop guessing about how
                  effective the setup might be. For the parts to work as they appear
                  to be intended, the runout between the register and the spindle axis
                  of rotation would need to be <.001" (or much less) and the loosest
                  fit between the arbor c-bore and the spindle register would need to
                  be <.001" (or much less). Unless we know the true specifications for
                  these parts from Taig, we can only guess what happens from arbor to
                  arbor and spindle to spindle. Having just purchased a lathe to
                  compliment my mill, I'm very interested in authoritative answers to
                  this question.
                  Todd F.

                  --- In taigtools@y..., Stan Stocker <skstocker@a...> wrote:
                  > The register is the unthreaded portion between the shoulder of the
                  > spindle and the threads. This is a contact area that is a very
                  close
                  > fit with the unthreaded area on the headstock end of the
                  > chuck/arbor/whatever.
                • Stan Stocker
                  The use of the register to provide axial location of threaded chucks has been common practice among lathe makers since at least the very early 1900 s, probably
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 7, 2002
                    The use of the register to provide axial location of threaded chucks has
                    been common practice among lathe makers since at least the very early
                    1900's, probably earlier. No guessing required, using a register is
                    proven practice.

                    The Taig spec doesn't really matter, any more than the factory spec for
                    South Bend, Atlas, Clausing, or any other lathe maker matters. You make
                    the tool or backing plate to fit your particular spindle if you want
                    maximum accuracy. Taig could probably give you the specs and tolerances
                    for the spindle nose if you asked them.

                    Some of this is based on wanting to be able to work to a thou easily,
                    and chase tenths when needed. It also is based on wanting to be able to
                    unmount a chuck or fixture from the lathe, then remount it with better
                    than a thou repeatability. If your work doesn't require this, just use
                    the stuff as provided and relax.

                    In your case, I'd mike the register on both the mill and lathe.
                    Hopefully they match very closely. If so, you make things to mate to
                    the slightly larger register and just use it in most cases. In a case
                    where you are making a specialized holder for the tool with the smaller
                    register, that particular item becomes mated to only that tool. As both
                    of your tools are from Taig, I think you'll have no problems, the
                    variation will likely be in the low tenths. A snug wringing fit on one
                    will likely be a good to snug wringing fit on the other. It's when you
                    mix manufacturers and eras that things get interesting, I have a SB9 and
                    a Jet 9 inch lathe. The chucks don't interchange, even though they are
                    both 1 1/2-8 thread spindles, due to register size differences. I could
                    "make" them interchange, but then all the chucks would be sloppy fits on
                    one lathe.

                    The blank arbors I checked have the register bore about 1.5 to 2 thou
                    over the register diameter on my lathe. Perceptably loose, probably too
                    lose to provide any locating beyond that provided by the flat faces of
                    the spindle nose and rear of the arbor and the tendency of clean oiled
                    threads to self center when loaded evenly.

                    If you are making tooling for sale, then you have to allow the maximum
                    tolerance on this dimension, plus a half thou or so, to ensure your
                    products will fit. The downside of this is that the person whose
                    spindle is at the smallest end of the tolerance gets a looser less
                    accurate fit than the person whose lathe is near the max tolerance.
                    This is why on larger lathes, the better manufacturers provide both
                    blank and semi-machined backing plates for their chucks. You bore to
                    match your spindle, they simply save you the time to clean up the
                    casting and cut the spindle threads when you buy a semi machined backing
                    plate.

                    Typically you make a set of plug gages to match your exact spindle. One
                    with the minor diameter of the spindle threads, used to bore out the
                    blank prior to threading. The second gage is stepped, having the
                    register and the minor diameters. You bore the register using this, to
                    a gently wringing fit. The final gage is an exact replica of your
                    spindle nose, including threads. This is used when threading to gage
                    the threads, and verify that the register lines up just right. Slightly
                    loose threads and a dead on register beats tight threads and a sloppy
                    register every time. Spindle threads are rarely better than a class 2
                    or 2A fit when a register is used.

                    While most of this will never apply to most lathe owners (Taig or
                    other), if you ever want to make a special chuck or fixture that is dead
                    on for your lathe spindle this is how you get it done.

                    In the case of using blank arbors, most of the work is already done.
                    I'd just turn off about half the existing register and bore the arbor to
                    match the register. If you turn off the entire register, you may have
                    the spindle nose bottom in the adaptor before the arbor pulls up tight
                    against the spindle face. You could bore out the interior past the
                    threads, but if you're doing that much work you might as well start from
                    a piece of shaft. Face nicely, chamfer to accomodate the radius at the
                    spindle face to register transition, run in a 3/4-16 tap to clean up the
                    threads you bored into, then flip it around, mount it up, and drill and
                    bore the holes you need. Everytime you mount it up it will be at least
                    a tad more repeatable than using the default fit provided on blank
                    arbors. Even facing the rear of the arbor nicely will be an
                    improvement, although less then nicely mating the registers as well.

                    Boring the register is also required should you want to use Sears small
                    woodturning faceplates on your Taig. Beats a spacer.

                    Stan

                    toddfoh wrote:
                    >
                    > Does anyone know the actual specifications for the register and
                    > counterbore on the spindle and arbor? If we knew the min/max
                    > diameters on each of these parts, we could stop guessing about how
                    > effective the setup might be. For the parts to work as they appear
                    > to be intended, the runout between the register and the spindle axis
                    > of rotation would need to be <.001" (or much less) and the loosest
                    > fit between the arbor c-bore and the spindle register would need to
                    > be <.001" (or much less). Unless we know the true specifications for
                    > these parts from Taig, we can only guess what happens from arbor to
                    > arbor and spindle to spindle. Having just purchased a lathe to
                    > compliment my mill, I'm very interested in authoritative answers to
                    > this question.
                    > Todd F.
                    >
                    > --- In taigtools@y..., Stan Stocker <skstocker@a...> wrote:
                    > > The register is the unthreaded portion between the shoulder of the
                    > > spindle and the threads. This is a contact area that is a very
                    > close
                    > > fit with the unthreaded area on the headstock end of the
                    > > chuck/arbor/whatever.
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: taigtools@...
                    >
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: taigtools-unsubscribe@...
                    >
                    > Let the chips fly!
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • Carol & Jerry Jankura
                    ... Or, you could provide a coupling that the end user machines like Unimat used to do for some of their tooling! -- Carol & Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 7, 2002
                      |-----Original Message-----
                      |From: Stan Stocker [mailto:skstocker@...]
                      |Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:32 AM
                      |To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
                      |
                      |If you are making tooling for sale, then you have to allow the maximum
                      |tolerance on this dimension, plus a half thou or so, to ensure your
                      |products will fit. The downside of this is that the person whose
                      |spindle is at the smallest end of the tolerance gets a looser less
                      |accurate fit than the person whose lathe is near the max tolerance.
                      |This is why on larger lathes, the better manufacturers provide both
                      |blank and semi-machined backing plates for their chucks. You bore to
                      |match your spindle, they simply save you the time to clean up the
                      |casting and cut the spindle threads when you buy a semi machined backing
                      |plate.
                      |
                      Or, you could provide a coupling that the end user machines like Unimat used
                      to do for some of their tooling!

                      -- Carol & Jerry Jankura
                      Strongsville, Ohio
                      So many toys, so little time....
                    • gmfoster2000
                      Actually it doesn t make any difference. You need to think your geometry over again. That is the beauty of boring. You will be concentric with the shaft. It
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 10, 2002
                        Actually it doesn't make any difference. You need to think your
                        geometry over again. That is the beauty of boring. You will be
                        concentric with the shaft. It the law!...

                        Except for flex and things like that. You don't need to start the
                        hole in the center at all as long as you finish by boring and the
                        edge af a drill bit will work very well as a boring bar. An end mill
                        held in the vise will work better. It just has to be smaller than the
                        final hole. You can moev the table to enlarge to final size just as
                        if it was a cross slide.

                        It is the beauty of relvoing the work rather than the tooling.

                        Garry

                        --- In taigtools@y..., Al Schoepp <schoepp4887@r...> wrote:
                        > At 01:00 AM 06/02/2002 -0500, you wrote:
                        > >The quickest way to get to dead center on a cylinder is to pick up
                        an
                        > >edge close to the max on the y axis, then move half the workpiece
                        > >diameter + half the edge finder or pin/drill diameter in. Pick up
                        an X
                        > >axis edge, move half the distance + half the tool. Repeat once
                        again
                        > >starting with the y axis then the x axis and you'll be dead on
                        center,
                        > >to better than a thou with no fancy footwork required, just the
                        usual
                        > >keeping track of backlash and reading the dials in good light.
                        Gotta
                        > >love trig, plug in fairly good starting conditions and the solution
                        > >point converges rapidly!
                        >
                        > This all assumes that the outside of the adapter is round and that
                        the
                        > piece was originally made so that it turned true. I would think
                        you would
                        > have to take at least a light cut off the sides to ensure that is
                        correct.
                        >
                        > I agree it would be possible and I may yet end up giving it a try
                        but I
                        > personally would prefer to buy something like that if it were
                        available and
                        > spend my time making my projects rather than spend time making
                        something
                        > like this so I can then make the projects.
                        >
                        > Al
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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