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Re: Question on milling machine

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  • Don
    Ed, with the three point mount, you can t introduce a twist to the base when bolting it down.
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 30, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Ed, with the three point mount, you can't introduce a twist to the base when bolting it down.

      --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, ED MAISEY <holmes_ca_2000@...> wrote:
      >
      > Don,Paul.
      >
      >    no difference after clamping, 
      >  
      > ........Edmund.........
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: ED MAISEY <holmes_ca_2000@...>
      > To: "taigtools@yahoogroups.com" <taigtools@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 4:10 PM
      > Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine
      >
      >
      >  
      > Don, Paul, 
      >
      >    I wouldn't dismantle any parts until I have bolted the base down, I have .006 discrepancy on my Y axis, I have removed the X Y saddle and determined that the error is in the bed mounted to the steel main base, but that is without the base bolted down, 
      >
      > I have already checked the accuracy of the Z axis with suitable measuring equipment on a granite surface large enough to cope with the size, I will let you know if when bolted down the error is gone,   
      >  
      > ........Edmund.........
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Don <Don@...>
      > To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 12:44 PM
      > Subject: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine
      >
      >
      >  
      > Paul' suggestion on the graduated shims is very important. If you do not do this, you will end up with a bow in the ways.
      >
      > I really question though that you need to shim the Y saddle. Unless the mill has been dropped and bent, the relationship between the Z mount face and the Y saddle mount should not have changed. Well maybe if you did over tighten the big column bolt, but you would really have to tighten it to warp that part of the base. Read my article, Taig-Column.pdf in the files section of this group. It's near the bottom of list. I show how I determined if there was a problem with the saddle or not.
      >
      > Even if the saddle base and z tilt face are out of square, shimming the saddle would be my last choice of ways to fix it. Scrapping the bottom of the saddle would be one way, and having the base reground would be my first choice.
      >
      > What ever method you use, the saddle can be cocked quite a bit on the screw pattern and I ended up with the face of the Z being 0.008" out of parallel with the X travel due to this cock. It is an easy fix though, loosen all eight screws, then snug down just one corner, scan the Z face and tap the other end to zero run out, then snug down that corner. Now tighten all screws in Paul's pattern. I start with the center four and snug each screw down alternating side to side and fore and aft. Then tighten a little more in the same pattern, then repeat with the final tightening. By the way, my definition of snug is just slightly tighter than finger tight.
      >
      > --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Ste. Marie" <taig@> wrote:
      > >
      > > On 8/28/2012 7:36 PM, Edmund wrote:
      > > > I cannot see any location dowels for replacing the saddle to the base
      > > > other than screws, has any member removed one,
      > >
      > > What I did was put set screws in the holes sticking out a bit to serve
      > > as locators. After putting the shims in place (btw, use a progression
      > > of shims so you aren't flexing the y-ways), I dropped the saddle in
      > > place over the set screws. I then went to each in turn, unscrewing each
      > > set screw, pulling it out, and replacing it with the cap screw.
      > >
      > > If you hold a pick-up magnet to the head of the cap screw, it will
      > > conduct the magnetic flux down to the tip, making it real easy to pluck
      > > out the set screw after loosening it.
      > >
      > > One other tip--tighten the cap screws in a pattern like you would a
      > > wheel when changing a tire. You'll need to remove the saddle from the
      > > y-ways to do that--take the two caps screw off the end plate with the y
      > > crank, back the lead screw out until it comes loose from the nut, and
      > > slide the saddle and table off the ways. I had a heck of a time
      > > figuring out why the shims weren't having the expected results until
      > > very methodically went in a zig-zag and torqued the screws as evenly as
      > > I could, using a finger tip on the end of the long arm of an Allen
      > > wrench as a makeshift torque wrench.
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • ED MAISEY
      Don,    an update on setting up new Taig mill, the steel base was pretty well perfect, two problems were  found that solved the the inaccuracies I had one
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 1, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Don,

           an update on setting up new Taig mill, the steel base was pretty well perfect, two problems were  found that solved the the inaccuracies I had one was needing a tweak on the Z axis,  the two side plates had some slackness and needing adjustment, the second was I had to shim the Y axis at the column end between steel base and mating bed, I now have a perfect tram of zero zero in both X and Y plane over a 10 inch span, I have to add that I am impressed with the quality and finish of the product,
         
        ........Edmund.........


        ________________________________
        From: Don <Don@...>
        To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 11:51 AM
        Subject: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine


         
        Ed, with the three point mount, you can't introduce a twist to the base when bolting it down.

        --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, ED MAISEY <holmes_ca_2000@...> wrote:
        >
        > Don,Paul.
        >
        >    no difference after clamping, 
        >  
        > ........Edmund.........
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: ED MAISEY <holmes_ca_2000@...>
        > To: "taigtools@yahoogroups.com" <taigtools@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 4:10 PM
        > Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine
        >
        >
        >  
        > Don, Paul, 
        >
        >    I wouldn't dismantle any parts until I have bolted the base down, I have .006 discrepancy on my Y axis, I have removed the X Y saddle and determined that the error is in the bed mounted to the steel main base, but that is without the base bolted down, 
        >
        > I have already checked the accuracy of the Z axis with suitable measuring equipment on a granite surface large enough to cope with the size, I will let you know if when bolted down the error is gone,   
        >  
        > ........Edmund.........
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: Don <Don@...>
        > To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 12:44 PM
        > Subject: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine
        >
        >
        >  
        > Paul' suggestion on the graduated shims is very important. If you do not do this, you will end up with a bow in the ways.
        >
        > I really question though that you need to shim the Y saddle. Unless the mill has been dropped and bent, the relationship between the Z mount face and the Y saddle mount should not have changed. Well maybe if you did over tighten the big column bolt, but you would really have to tighten it to warp that part of the base. Read my article, Taig-Column.pdf in the files section of this group. It's near the bottom of list. I show how I determined if there was a problem with the saddle or not.
        >
        > Even if the saddle base and z tilt face are out of square, shimming the saddle would be my last choice of ways to fix it. Scrapping the bottom of the saddle would be one way, and having the base reground would be my first choice.
        >
        > What ever method you use, the saddle can be cocked quite a bit on the screw pattern and I ended up with the face of the Z being 0.008" out of parallel with the X travel due to this cock. It is an easy fix though, loosen all eight screws, then snug down just one corner, scan the Z face and tap the other end to zero run out, then snug down that corner. Now tighten all screws in Paul's pattern. I start with the center four and snug each screw down alternating side to side and fore and aft. Then tighten a little more in the same pattern, then repeat with the final tightening. By the way, my definition of snug is just slightly tighter than finger tight.
        >
        > --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Ste. Marie" <taig@> wrote:
        > >
        > > On 8/28/2012 7:36 PM, Edmund wrote:
        > > > I cannot see any location dowels for replacing the saddle to the base
        > > > other than screws, has any member removed one,
        > >
        > > What I did was put set screws in the holes sticking out a bit to serve
        > > as locators. After putting the shims in place (btw, use a progression
        > > of shims so you aren't flexing the y-ways), I dropped the saddle in
        > > place over the set screws. I then went to each in turn, unscrewing each
        > > set screw, pulling it out, and replacing it with the cap screw.
        > >
        > > If you hold a pick-up magnet to the head of the cap screw, it will
        > > conduct the magnetic flux down to the tip, making it real easy to pluck
        > > out the set screw after loosening it.
        > >
        > > One other tip--tighten the cap screws in a pattern like you would a
        > > wheel when changing a tire. You'll need to remove the saddle from the
        > > y-ways to do that--take the two caps screw off the end plate with the y
        > > crank, back the lead screw out until it comes loose from the nut, and
        > > slide the saddle and table off the ways. I had a heck of a time
        > > figuring out why the shims weren't having the expected results until
        > > very methodically went in a zig-zag and torqued the screws as evenly as
        > > I could, using a finger tip on the end of the long arm of an Allen
        > > wrench as a makeshift torque wrench.
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Don
        Ed, you never told us how you determined that the Y was off by 0.008 and that the saddle needed shimming. Would you tell us what setup you used? Don
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 1, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Ed, you never told us how you determined that the Y was off by 0.008" and that the saddle needed shimming. Would you tell us what setup you used?

          Don
          --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, ED MAISEY <holmes_ca_2000@...> wrote:
          >
          > Don,
          >
          >    an update on setting up new Taig mill, the steel base was pretty well perfect, two problems were  found that solved the the inaccuracies I had one was needing a tweak on the Z axis,  the two side plates had some slackness and needing adjustment, the second was I had to shim the Y axis at the column end between steel base and mating bed, I now have a perfect tram of zero zero in both X and Y plane over a 10 inch span, I have to add that I am impressed with the quality and finish of the product,
          >  
          > ........Edmund.........
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Don <Don@...>
          > To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 11:51 AM
          > Subject: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine
          >
          >
          >  
          > Ed, with the three point mount, you can't introduce a twist to the base when bolting it down.
          >
          > --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, ED MAISEY <holmes_ca_2000@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Don,Paul.
          > >
          > >    no difference after clamping, 
          > >  
          > > ........Edmund.........
          > >
          > >
          > > ________________________________
          > > From: ED MAISEY <holmes_ca_2000@>
          > > To: "taigtools@yahoogroups.com" <taigtools@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 4:10 PM
          > > Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine
          > >
          > >
          > >  
          > > Don, Paul, 
          > >
          > >    I wouldn't dismantle any parts until I have bolted the base down, I have .006 discrepancy on my Y axis, I have removed the X Y saddle and determined that the error is in the bed mounted to the steel main base, but that is without the base bolted down, 
          > >
          > > I have already checked the accuracy of the Z axis with suitable measuring equipment on a granite surface large enough to cope with the size, I will let you know if when bolted down the error is gone,   
          > >  
          > > ........Edmund.........
          > >
          > > ________________________________
          > > From: Don <Don@>
          > > To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 12:44 PM
          > > Subject: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine
          > >
          > >
          > >  
          > > Paul' suggestion on the graduated shims is very important. If you do not do this, you will end up with a bow in the ways.
          > >
          > > I really question though that you need to shim the Y saddle. Unless the mill has been dropped and bent, the relationship between the Z mount face and the Y saddle mount should not have changed. Well maybe if you did over tighten the big column bolt, but you would really have to tighten it to warp that part of the base. Read my article, Taig-Column.pdf in the files section of this group. It's near the bottom of list. I show how I determined if there was a problem with the saddle or not.
          > >
          > > Even if the saddle base and z tilt face are out of square, shimming the saddle would be my last choice of ways to fix it. Scrapping the bottom of the saddle would be one way, and having the base reground would be my first choice.
          > >
          > > What ever method you use, the saddle can be cocked quite a bit on the screw pattern and I ended up with the face of the Z being 0.008" out of parallel with the X travel due to this cock. It is an easy fix though, loosen all eight screws, then snug down just one corner, scan the Z face and tap the other end to zero run out, then snug down that corner. Now tighten all screws in Paul's pattern. I start with the center four and snug each screw down alternating side to side and fore and aft. Then tighten a little more in the same pattern, then repeat with the final tightening. By the way, my definition of snug is just slightly tighter than finger tight.
          > >
          > > --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Ste. Marie" <taig@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > On 8/28/2012 7:36 PM, Edmund wrote:
          > > > > I cannot see any location dowels for replacing the saddle to the base
          > > > > other than screws, has any member removed one,
          > > >
          > > > What I did was put set screws in the holes sticking out a bit to serve
          > > > as locators. After putting the shims in place (btw, use a progression
          > > > of shims so you aren't flexing the y-ways), I dropped the saddle in
          > > > place over the set screws. I then went to each in turn, unscrewing each
          > > > set screw, pulling it out, and replacing it with the cap screw.
          > > >
          > > > If you hold a pick-up magnet to the head of the cap screw, it will
          > > > conduct the magnetic flux down to the tip, making it real easy to pluck
          > > > out the set screw after loosening it.
          > > >
          > > > One other tip--tighten the cap screws in a pattern like you would a
          > > > wheel when changing a tire. You'll need to remove the saddle from the
          > > > y-ways to do that--take the two caps screw off the end plate with the y
          > > > crank, back the lead screw out until it comes loose from the nut, and
          > > > slide the saddle and table off the ways. I had a heck of a time
          > > > figuring out why the shims weren't having the expected results until
          > > > very methodically went in a zig-zag and torqued the screws as evenly as
          > > > I could, using a finger tip on the end of the long arm of an Allen
          > > > wrench as a makeshift torque wrench.
          > > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • ED MAISEY
          Don,     after checking and re-checking all the Taig  parts and found they were spot on, I must say I am really impressed with this little machine, the
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 1, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Don,

                after checking and re-checking all the Taig  parts and found they were spot on, I must say I am really impressed with this little machine, the fault was on my end, after checking all parts I couldn't understand why it would be out so far, that's when I found out the cause, it was the two side plates on the Z axis they needed adjustment, as I had the machine disassembled I decided to place a  half inch  wide .002 shim on the steel bed and take a chance, it worked out perfectly, I have the machine set up with motors  and at this moment about to test,
             
            ........Edmund.........


            ________________________________
            From: Don <Don@...>
            To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2012 1:49 PM
            Subject: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine


             

            Ed, you never told us how you determined that the Y was off by 0.008" and that the saddle needed shimming. Would you tell us what setup you used?

            Don
            --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, ED MAISEY <holmes_ca_2000@...> wrote:
            >
            > Don,
            >
            >    an update on setting up new Taig mill, the steel base was pretty well perfect, two problems were  found that solved the the inaccuracies I had one was needing a tweak on the Z axis,  the two side plates had some slackness and needing adjustment, the second was I had to shim the Y axis at the column end between steel base and mating bed, I now have a perfect tram of zero zero in both X and Y plane over a 10 inch span, I have to add that I am impressed with the quality and finish of the product,
            >  
            > ........Edmund.........
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Don <Don@...>
            > To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 11:51 AM
            > Subject: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine
            >
            >
            >  
            > Ed, with the three point mount, you can't introduce a twist to the base when bolting it down.
            >
            > --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, ED MAISEY <holmes_ca_2000@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Don,Paul.
            > >
            > >    no difference after clamping, 
            > >  
            > > ........Edmund.........
            > >
            > >
            > > ________________________________
            > > From: ED MAISEY <holmes_ca_2000@>
            > > To: "taigtools@yahoogroups.com" <taigtools@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 4:10 PM
            > > Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine
            > >
            > >
            > >  
            > > Don, Paul, 
            > >
            > >    I wouldn't dismantle any parts until I have bolted the base down, I have .006 discrepancy on my Y axis, I have removed the X Y saddle and determined that the error is in the bed mounted to the steel main base, but that is without the base bolted down, 
            > >
            > > I have already checked the accuracy of the Z axis with suitable measuring equipment on a granite surface large enough to cope with the size, I will let you know if when bolted down the error is gone,   
            > >  
            > > ........Edmund.........
            > >
            > > ________________________________
            > > From: Don <Don@>
            > > To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 12:44 PM
            > > Subject: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine
            > >
            > >
            > >  
            > > Paul' suggestion on the graduated shims is very important. If you do not do this, you will end up with a bow in the ways.
            > >
            > > I really question though that you need to shim the Y saddle. Unless the mill has been dropped and bent, the relationship between the Z mount face and the Y saddle mount should not have changed. Well maybe if you did over tighten the big column bolt, but you would really have to tighten it to warp that part of the base. Read my article, Taig-Column.pdf in the files section of this group. It's near the bottom of list. I show how I determined if there was a problem with the saddle or not.
            > >
            > > Even if the saddle base and z tilt face are out of square, shimming the saddle would be my last choice of ways to fix it. Scrapping the bottom of the saddle would be one way, and having the base reground would be my first choice.
            > >
            > > What ever method you use, the saddle can be cocked quite a bit on the screw pattern and I ended up with the face of the Z being 0.008" out of parallel with the X travel due to this cock. It is an easy fix though, loosen all eight screws, then snug down just one corner, scan the Z face and tap the other end to zero run out, then snug down that corner. Now tighten all screws in Paul's pattern. I start with the center four and snug each screw down alternating side to side and fore and aft. Then tighten a little more in the same pattern, then repeat with the final tightening. By the way, my definition of snug is just slightly tighter than finger tight.
            > >
            > > --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Ste. Marie" <taig@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > On 8/28/2012 7:36 PM, Edmund wrote:
            > > > > I cannot see any location dowels for replacing the saddle to the base
            > > > > other than screws, has any member removed one,
            > > >
            > > > What I did was put set screws in the holes sticking out a bit to serve
            > > > as locators. After putting the shims in place (btw, use a progression
            > > > of shims so you aren't flexing the y-ways), I dropped the saddle in
            > > > place over the set screws. I then went to each in turn, unscrewing each
            > > > set screw, pulling it out, and replacing it with the cap screw.
            > > >
            > > > If you hold a pick-up magnet to the head of the cap screw, it will
            > > > conduct the magnetic flux down to the tip, making it real easy to pluck
            > > > out the set screw after loosening it.
            > > >
            > > > One other tip--tighten the cap screws in a pattern like you would a
            > > > wheel when changing a tire. You'll need to remove the saddle from the
            > > > y-ways to do that--take the two caps screw off the end plate with the y
            > > > crank, back the lead screw out until it comes loose from the nut, and
            > > > slide the saddle and table off the ways. I had a heck of a time
            > > > figuring out why the shims weren't having the expected results until
            > > > very methodically went in a zig-zag and torqued the screws as evenly as
            > > > I could, using a finger tip on the end of the long arm of an Allen
            > > > wrench as a makeshift torque wrench.
            > > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • chuck
            Ed, what I believe Don is asking is how and where did you take your measurements and what kind of setup did you use to determine the axis was out. I too am
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 1, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Ed,
              what I believe Don is asking is how and where did you take your measurements and what kind of setup did you use to determine the axis was out.
              I too am curious.
              thanx,
              Chuck

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: ED MAISEY
              To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2012 6:28 PM
              Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine



              Don,

              after checking and re-checking all the Taig parts and found they were spot on, I must say I am really impressed with this little machine, the fault was on my end, after checking all parts I couldn't understand why it would be out so far, that's when I found out the cause, it was the two side plates on the Z axis they needed adjustment, as I had the machine disassembled I decided to place a half inch wide .002 shim on the steel bed and take a chance, it worked out perfectly, I have the machine set up with motors and at this moment about to test,

              ........Edmund.........

              ________________________________
              From: Don <Don@...>
              To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2012 1:49 PM
              Subject: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine




              Ed, you never told us how you determined that the Y was off by 0.008" and that the saddle needed shimming. Would you tell us what setup you used?

              Don
              --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, ED MAISEY <holmes_ca_2000@...> wrote:
              >
              > Don,
              >
              >   an update on setting up new Taig mill, the steel base was pretty well perfect, two problems were  found that solved the the inaccuracies I had one was needing a tweak on the Z axis,  the two side plates had some slackness and needing adjustment, the second was I had to shim the Y axis at the column end between steel base and mating bed, I now have a perfect tram of zero zero in both X and Y plane over a 10 inch span, I have to add that I am impressed with the quality and finish of the product,
              > Â
              > ........Edmund.........
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Don <Don@...>
              > To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 11:51 AM
              > Subject: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine
              >
              >
              > Â
              > Ed, with the three point mount, you can't introduce a twist to the base when bolting it down.
              >
              > --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, ED MAISEY <holmes_ca_2000@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Don,Paul.
              > >
              > >   no difference after clamping,ÂÂ
              > > ÂÂ
              > > ........Edmund.........
              > >
              > >
              > > ________________________________
              > > From: ED MAISEY <holmes_ca_2000@>
              > > To: "taigtools@yahoogroups.com" <taigtools@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 4:10 PM
              > > Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine
              > >
              > >
              > > ÂÂ
              > > Don, Paul,ÂÂ
              > >
              > >   I wouldn't dismantle any parts until I have bolted the base down, I have .006 discrepancy on my Y axis, I have removed the X Y saddle and determined that the error is in the bed mounted to the steel main base, but that is without the base bolted down,ÂÂ
              > >
              > > I have already checked the accuracy of the Z axis with suitable measuring equipment on a granite surface large enough to cope with the size, I will let you know if when bolted down the error is gone,  ÂÂ
              > > ÂÂ
              > > ........Edmund.........
              > >
              > > ________________________________
              > > From: Don <Don@>
              > > To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 12:44 PM
              > > Subject: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine
              > >
              > >
              > > ÂÂ
              > > Paul' suggestion on the graduated shims is very important. If you do not do this, you will end up with a bow in the ways.
              > >
              > > I really question though that you need to shim the Y saddle. Unless the mill has been dropped and bent, the relationship between the Z mount face and the Y saddle mount should not have changed. Well maybe if you did over tighten the big column bolt, but you would really have to tighten it to warp that part of the base. Read my article, Taig-Column.pdf in the files section of this group. It's near the bottom of list. I show how I determined if there was a problem with the saddle or not.
              > >
              > > Even if the saddle base and z tilt face are out of square, shimming the saddle would be my last choice of ways to fix it. Scrapping the bottom of the saddle would be one way, and having the base reground would be my first choice.
              > >
              > > What ever method you use, the saddle can be cocked quite a bit on the screw pattern and I ended up with the face of the Z being 0.008" out of parallel with the X travel due to this cock. It is an easy fix though, loosen all eight screws, then snug down just one corner, scan the Z face and tap the other end to zero run out, then snug down that corner. Now tighten all screws in Paul's pattern. I start with the center four and snug each screw down alternating side to side and fore and aft. Then tighten a little more in the same pattern, then repeat with the final tightening. By the way, my definition of snug is just slightly tighter than finger tight.
              > >
              > > --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Ste. Marie" <taig@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > On 8/28/2012 7:36 PM, Edmund wrote:
              > > > > I cannot see any location dowels for replacing the saddle to the base
              > > > > other than screws, has any member removed one,
              > > >
              > > > What I did was put set screws in the holes sticking out a bit to serve
              > > > as locators. After putting the shims in place (btw, use a progression
              > > > of shims so you aren't flexing the y-ways), I dropped the saddle in
              > > > place over the set screws. I then went to each in turn, unscrewing each
              > > > set screw, pulling it out, and replacing it with the cap screw.
              > > >
              > > > If you hold a pick-up magnet to the head of the cap screw, it will
              > > > conduct the magnetic flux down to the tip, making it real easy to pluck
              > > > out the set screw after loosening it.
              > > >
              > > > One other tip--tighten the cap screws in a pattern like you would a
              > > > wheel when changing a tire. You'll need to remove the saddle from the
              > > > y-ways to do that--take the two caps screw off the end plate with the y
              > > > crank, back the lead screw out until it comes loose from the nut, and
              > > > slide the saddle and table off the ways. I had a heck of a time
              > > > figuring out why the shims weren't having the expected results until
              > > > very methodically went in a zig-zag and torqued the screws as evenly as
              > > > I could, using a finger tip on the end of the long arm of an Allen
              > > > wrench as a makeshift torque wrench.
              > > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Edmund
              Chuck/Don what I originally thought was an error of machined parts from Taig I was to find out eventually was my fault, the machined parts that made up the
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 1, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Chuck/Don

                what I originally thought was an error of machined parts from Taig I was to find out eventually was my fault, the machined parts that made up the mill were perfect, so there was no error on the part of the Taig mill and manufacturing, that being said I'm still glad I went through the process, the tools I used were a black granite surface block 18" x 12" x 3", Mitutoyo finger Dial Indicator, also Verdict Dial Indicator, hardened ground blocks of all dimensions accumulated from Toolrooms, 1" dia small magnet, Moore and Wright 4" square, I took photos of the process and I will post them in a folder I will call it Edmunds Taig, you will have to try to get info from looking at them and working out what they represent, I can try to answer any questions if needed,

                I have to emphasize I jumped the gun in stating the error was in the machine, there was no error the machine is perfect, it was myself who was wrong not Taig, from my experience its a beautifully manufactured machine, and I would certainly recommend it,

                --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "chuck" <chuckels@...> wrote:
                >
                > Ed,
                > what I believe Don is asking is how and where did you take your measurements and what kind of setup did you use to determine the axis was out.
                > I too am curious.
                > thanx,
                > Chuck
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: ED MAISEY
                > To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2012 6:28 PM
                > Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine
                >
                >
                >
                > Don,
                >
                > after checking and re-checking all the Taig parts and found they were spot on, I must say I am really impressed with this little machine, the fault was on my end, after checking all parts I couldn't understand why it would be out so far, that's when I found out the cause, it was the two side plates on the Z axis they needed adjustment, as I had the machine disassembled I decided to place a half inch wide .002 shim on the steel bed and take a chance, it worked out perfectly, I have the machine set up with motors and at this moment about to test,
                >
                > ........Edmund.........
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Don <Don@...>
                > To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2012 1:49 PM
                > Subject: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Ed, you never told us how you determined that the Y was off by 0.008" and that the saddle needed shimming. Would you tell us what setup you used?
                >
                > Don
                > --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, ED MAISEY <holmes_ca_2000@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Don,
                > >
                > >   an update on setting up new Taig mill, the steel base was pretty well perfect, two problems were  found that solved the the inaccuracies I had one was needing a tweak on the Z axis,  the two side plates had some slackness and needing adjustment, the second was I had to shim the Y axis at the column end between steel base and mating bed, I now have a perfect tram of zero zero in both X and Y plane over a 10 inch span, I have to add that I am impressed with the quality and finish of the product,
                > > Â
                > > ........Edmund.........
                > >
                > >
                > > ________________________________
                > > From: Don <Don@>
                > > To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 11:51 AM
                > > Subject: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine
                > >
                > >
                > > Â
                > > Ed, with the three point mount, you can't introduce a twist to the base when bolting it down.
                > >
                > > --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, ED MAISEY <holmes_ca_2000@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Don,Paul.
                > > >
                > > >   no difference after clamping,ÂÂ
                > > > ÂÂ
                > > > ........Edmund.........
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ________________________________
                > > > From: ED MAISEY <holmes_ca_2000@>
                > > > To: "taigtools@yahoogroups.com" <taigtools@yahoogroups.com>
                > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 4:10 PM
                > > > Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ÂÂ
                > > > Don, Paul,ÂÂ
                > > >
                > > >   I wouldn't dismantle any parts until I have bolted the base down, I have .006 discrepancy on my Y axis, I have removed the X Y saddle and determined that the error is in the bed mounted to the steel main base, but that is without the base bolted down,ÂÂ
                > > >
                > > > I have already checked the accuracy of the Z axis with suitable measuring equipment on a granite surface large enough to cope with the size, I will let you know if when bolted down the error is gone,  ÂÂ
                > > > ÂÂ
                > > > ........Edmund.........
                > > >
                > > > ________________________________
                > > > From: Don <Don@>
                > > > To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 12:44 PM
                > > > Subject: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ÂÂ
                > > > Paul' suggestion on the graduated shims is very important. If you do not do this, you will end up with a bow in the ways.
                > > >
                > > > I really question though that you need to shim the Y saddle. Unless the mill has been dropped and bent, the relationship between the Z mount face and the Y saddle mount should not have changed. Well maybe if you did over tighten the big column bolt, but you would really have to tighten it to warp that part of the base. Read my article, Taig-Column.pdf in the files section of this group. It's near the bottom of list. I show how I determined if there was a problem with the saddle or not.
                > > >
                > > > Even if the saddle base and z tilt face are out of square, shimming the saddle would be my last choice of ways to fix it. Scrapping the bottom of the saddle would be one way, and having the base reground would be my first choice.
                > > >
                > > > What ever method you use, the saddle can be cocked quite a bit on the screw pattern and I ended up with the face of the Z being 0.008" out of parallel with the X travel due to this cock. It is an easy fix though, loosen all eight screws, then snug down just one corner, scan the Z face and tap the other end to zero run out, then snug down that corner. Now tighten all screws in Paul's pattern. I start with the center four and snug each screw down alternating side to side and fore and aft. Then tighten a little more in the same pattern, then repeat with the final tightening. By the way, my definition of snug is just slightly tighter than finger tight.
                > > >
                > > > --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Ste. Marie" <taig@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > On 8/28/2012 7:36 PM, Edmund wrote:
                > > > > > I cannot see any location dowels for replacing the saddle to the base
                > > > > > other than screws, has any member removed one,
                > > > >
                > > > > What I did was put set screws in the holes sticking out a bit to serve
                > > > > as locators. After putting the shims in place (btw, use a progression
                > > > > of shims so you aren't flexing the y-ways), I dropped the saddle in
                > > > > place over the set screws. I then went to each in turn, unscrewing each
                > > > > set screw, pulling it out, and replacing it with the cap screw.
                > > > >
                > > > > If you hold a pick-up magnet to the head of the cap screw, it will
                > > > > conduct the magnetic flux down to the tip, making it real easy to pluck
                > > > > out the set screw after loosening it.
                > > > >
                > > > > One other tip--tighten the cap screws in a pattern like you would a
                > > > > wheel when changing a tire. You'll need to remove the saddle from the
                > > > > y-ways to do that--take the two caps screw off the end plate with the y
                > > > > crank, back the lead screw out until it comes loose from the nut, and
                > > > > slide the saddle and table off the ways. I had a heck of a time
                > > > > figuring out why the shims weren't having the expected results until
                > > > > very methodically went in a zig-zag and torqued the screws as evenly as
                > > > > I could, using a finger tip on the end of the long arm of an Allen
                > > > > wrench as a makeshift torque wrench.
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Paul J. Ste. Marie
                ... Hypothetically you could, since the feet are fairly wide and can deliver torque. That said, the unreinforced bends on the feet would flex long before the
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 2, 2012
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                  On 8/30/2012 10:51 AM, Don wrote:
                  > Ed, with the three point mount, you can't introduce a twist to the
                  > base when bolting it down.

                  Hypothetically you could, since the feet are fairly wide and can deliver
                  torque. That said, the unreinforced bends on the feet would flex long
                  before the square tubing.
                • Don
                  Paul That is true. Both that you could and that is is very unlikely to happen. Not all twist and bends are the result of external stress, but some happen from
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 2, 2012
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                    Paul

                    That is true. Both that you could and that is is very unlikely to happen.

                    Not all twist and bends are the result of external stress, but some happen from internal stress. My wide Z way, which was over 10 years old, picked up a twist. If you laid it on the surface plate and pressed alternate corners, one pair would titer totter quite noticeably. When I measured it, there was a 0.005" twist. This is something I would more likely expect from cold rolled steel vs the hot rolled, but steel relaxes over time. I at first thought of re-grinding it, but purchasing a new one was a better economic choice.

                    The geometry of the Taig mill is interesting. There are things that at first look like corners cut, but after analyzing them, there are some nicely engineered solutions to what could have been both an expensive way to do in a traditional construction, and one that would hold up well to inexperienced new owners. The three point mounting is one of these.

                    The Z ways are another.

                    Don

                    --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Ste. Marie" <taig@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On 8/30/2012 10:51 AM, Don wrote:
                    > > Ed, with the three point mount, you can't introduce a twist to the
                    > > base when bolting it down.
                    >
                    > Hypothetically you could, since the feet are fairly wide and can deliver
                    > torque. That said, the unreinforced bends on the feet would flex long
                    > before the square tubing.
                    >
                  • Paul J. Ste. Marie
                    ... Interesting. That s the same place I shimmed mine. I never considered that the y-axis extrusion (200-15) might be at fault. I was assuming the problem
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 2, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On 9/1/2012 2:40 AM, ED MAISEY wrote:
                      > the steel base was pretty well perfect, two problems ...
                      > the second was I had to shim the Y axis at the column end between
                      > steel base and mating bed,

                      Interesting. That's the same place I shimmed mine. I never considered
                      that the y-axis extrusion (200-15) might be at fault. I was assuming
                      the problem with with the base, 200-10, since that is a lot more complex
                      to fabricate.
                    • ED MAISEY
                      Paul,    yes what actually happened was I missed the slack on the Z axis, I checked it laying down on its back and missed checking the two side plates either
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 3, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Paul,

                           yes what actually happened was I missed the slack on the Z axis, I checked it laying down on its back and missed checking the two side plates either side of the spindle headstock, consequently it was slack, when I checked the table I had a .005 error on Y plane, still did not notice the slack at Z, so checked the ways on Y axis using 4 rollers.008 error, still did not notice the slack, when I checked steel base on granite table for squareness it was pretty near perfect, so scratch my head what am I missing, ah ha found the culprit, adjusted side plates recheck steel base only .001 so decided to insert a 1/2" wide .002 thou, and with a sweep of 10 inches zero/ zero both planes, 

                        Ran some code today, beautiful little machine,
                         
                        ........Edmund.........


                        ________________________________
                        From: Paul J. Ste. Marie <taig@...>
                        To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, September 3, 2012 12:52 AM
                        Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: Question on milling machine


                         
                        On 9/1/2012 2:40 AM, ED MAISEY wrote:
                        > the steel base was pretty well perfect, two problems ...
                        > the second was I had to shim the Y axis at the column end between
                        > steel base and mating bed,

                        Interesting. That's the same place I shimmed mine. I never considered
                        that the y-axis extrusion (200-15) might be at fault. I was assuming
                        the problem with with the base, 200-10, since that is a lot more complex
                        to fabricate.




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