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Re: Z Axis Noise

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  • stinson108_1
    Hi There, On my z-axis I ve run into the need to occasionally tighten the side clamps that pulls the main body or moving part on the z-axis (to which the
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 1, 2009
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      Hi There,

      On my z-axis I've run into the need to occasionally tighten the side clamps that pulls the "main body" or moving part on the z-axis (to which the spindle mounts) into the z-axis "ways". I didn't actually have to tighten the gibs as they where already limiting the side to side play on this axis. The clamp got loose over time (some fly cutting) etc.. The z-axis moving "main body" was actually tilting out forward because it wasn't being held down to column "ways" if you will....

      I could tram the head side to side on the x-axis but the y axis readings showed the error.

      Doing this from memory so forgive me if the terms aren't 100% correct.

      Tightening the clamping mechanism up was accomplished by loosesning the clamping screws on the side, squeezing both sides firmly with "quick clamps" and re-tightening the screws. I just used the clampse as a second set of hands, not to sinch the clamp down, just snugged it. After that z-moves nicely.

      Could be a part of your problem. The gibs could be too...

      Just thoughts...

      Ian




      --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "noisillator" <tech.writer@...> wrote:
      >
      > Definitely not the lube - this mill has more motor oil in it now than my Ford. :) Actually, I was able to eliminate the noise by adjusting the Z gibs. I'm not sure they're set correctly though. Is the correct procedure written up on your site?
      >
      > Jack
      >
      > --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein <felice@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Could be something as simple as lack of lubrication, less simple your
      > > gibs need adjusting...
      > >
      > >
      > > noisillator wrote:
      > > > My new Taig mill came in over the weekend, and I'm slowly setting it
      > > > up. At this point, I have two of the three motors installed, driven
      > > > through a Gecko G540 & Mach3. The X axis sounds really smooth jogging
      > > > back and forth, pretty much identical to the Youtube videos I've
      > > > seen. The Z axis sounds like that too, but only when rising. When
      > > > it's descending, there's a loud, low-pitched vibration. The noise is
      > > > there anytime the screw is turning, regardless of speed. It sounds
      > > > like a resonance involving the way and column, and I don't think it's
      > > > the stepper.
      > > >
      > > > I did a search and came across an older thread about this, but the
      > > > solution wasn't posted. The owner tried a few things suggested by the
      > > > group, but none of it helped. Here's the thread:
      > > >
      > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/message/21299
      > > >
      > > > Has anyone else here seen this?
      > >
      > > --
      > > felice@ is Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein. See our
      > > homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html
      > >
      >
    • noisillator
      Good tip Ian - Thanks!
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 1, 2009
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        Good tip Ian - Thanks!

        --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "stinson108_1" <stinson108_1@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi There,
        >
        > On my z-axis I've run into the need to occasionally tighten the side clamps that pulls the "main body" or moving part on the z-axis (to which the spindle mounts) into the z-axis "ways". I didn't actually have to tighten the gibs as they where already limiting the side to side play on this axis. The clamp got loose over time (some fly cutting) etc.. The z-axis moving "main body" was actually tilting out forward because it wasn't being held down to column "ways" if you will....
        >
        > I could tram the head side to side on the x-axis but the y axis readings showed the error.
        >
        > Doing this from memory so forgive me if the terms aren't 100% correct.
        >
        > Tightening the clamping mechanism up was accomplished by loosesning the clamping screws on the side, squeezing both sides firmly with "quick clamps" and re-tightening the screws. I just used the clampse as a second set of hands, not to sinch the clamp down, just snugged it. After that z-moves nicely.
        >
        > Could be a part of your problem. The gibs could be too...
        >
        > Just thoughts...
        >
        > Ian
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "noisillator" <tech.writer@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Definitely not the lube - this mill has more motor oil in it now than my Ford. :) Actually, I was able to eliminate the noise by adjusting the Z gibs. I'm not sure they're set correctly though. Is the correct procedure written up on your site?
        > >
        > > Jack
        > >
        > > --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein <felice@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Could be something as simple as lack of lubrication, less simple your
        > > > gibs need adjusting...
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > noisillator wrote:
        > > > > My new Taig mill came in over the weekend, and I'm slowly setting it
        > > > > up. At this point, I have two of the three motors installed, driven
        > > > > through a Gecko G540 & Mach3. The X axis sounds really smooth jogging
        > > > > back and forth, pretty much identical to the Youtube videos I've
        > > > > seen. The Z axis sounds like that too, but only when rising. When
        > > > > it's descending, there's a loud, low-pitched vibration. The noise is
        > > > > there anytime the screw is turning, regardless of speed. It sounds
        > > > > like a resonance involving the way and column, and I don't think it's
        > > > > the stepper.
        > > > >
        > > > > I did a search and came across an older thread about this, but the
        > > > > solution wasn't posted. The owner tried a few things suggested by the
        > > > > group, but none of it helped. Here's the thread:
        > > > >
        > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/message/21299
        > > > >
        > > > > Has anyone else here seen this?
        > > >
        > > > --
        > > > felice@ is Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein. See our
        > > > homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • noisillator
        ... Yep, I ve used heavy-duty foil in various fixtures on my table saw when alignment was critical. It s a lot cheaper than brass. I ve also used old feeler
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 1, 2009
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          --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, Ken Cline <cline@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thorough documentation on adjusting the Taig mill would be very nice,
          > but you can with the two photo essays on Nick's site. It doesn't
          > cover everything: For example,I shimmed my column and spindle mount
          > with aluminum foil to get them dialed in down to tenths.

          Yep, I've used heavy-duty foil in various fixtures on my table saw when alignment was critical. It's a lot cheaper than brass. I've also used old feeler gauges (the really thin sizes) to shim up tools on the Taig lathe.

          > Also someone
          > posted the possibility of misaligning an axis end plate, creating lead
          > screw friction, so watch that.

          Where does the misalignment take place? I have to say, I'm not too impressed by the NEMA-mount circular standoff around the motor facing. Maybe that's not the problem though.


          > The trick with gibs is finding the sweet spot where there is minimal
          > movement without binding. I tighten them until they do bind, then
          > back off a little. Of course you should check the full range of
          > motion to make sure there are no tight spots. Adjusting everything
          > now will help you avoid other frustrations and teach you a lot about
          > the mill at the same time.

          I accidentally overshot the leadscrew nut on the X axis yesterday, then realized I would have to loosen the gib to move the table. Once I did that, it was a small step to just remove the table to have a look. I understand better now how the gib works. The bigger problem for me is that I don't yet have the experience to know how much drag each axis should have.

          Then there's the fact that I have three indicators (one for the lathe), but no holders. Guess I'll have to make some small clamps that I can use with rods and T-nuts.

          Incidentally, how do you perform routine lubrication on the X axis, and how often? The leadscrew isn't accessible except from underneath.


          > On 31 Aug 2009, at 9:34 PM, noisillator wrote:
          >
          > > Definitely not the lube - this mill has more motor oil in it now
          > > than my Ford. :) Actually, I was able to eliminate the noise by
          > > adjusting the Z gibs. I'm not sure they're set correctly though. Is
          > > the correct procedure written up on your site?
          > >
          > > Jack
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Ken Cline
          ... Use the thin stuff for tramming the column in the YZ plane. It doesn t take much! Take careful measurements and you ll get it dead on the first time. ...
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 1, 2009
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            On 1 Sep 2009, at 11:45 AM, noisillator wrote:

            > Yep, I've used heavy-duty foil in various fixtures on my table saw
            > when alignment was critical. It's a lot cheaper than brass. I've
            > also used old feeler gauges (the really thin sizes) to shim up tools
            > on the Taig lathe.

            Use the thin stuff for tramming the column in the YZ plane. It
            doesn't take much! Take careful measurements and you'll get it dead
            on the first time.

            > > Also someone
            > > posted the possibility of misaligning an axis end plate, creating
            > lead
            > > screw friction, so watch that.
            >
            > Where does the misalignment take place? I have to say, I'm not too
            > impressed by the NEMA-mount circular standoff around the motor
            > facing. Maybe that's not the problem though.

            I haven't had the problem, but as I understand it, there is some
            movement (sideways and up/down) possible when attaching the end plate
            to the table. If it is too far off, the lead screw will no longer
            ride straight as the nut nears it. Just something to think about if
            you experience binding on that side.

            > > The trick with gibs is finding the sweet spot where there is minimal
            > > movement without binding. I tighten them until they do bind, then
            > > back off a little. Of course you should check the full range of
            > > motion to make sure there are no tight spots. Adjusting everything
            > > now will help you avoid other frustrations and teach you a lot about
            > > the mill at the same time.
            >
            > I accidentally overshot the leadscrew nut on the X axis yesterday,
            > then realized I would have to loosen the gib to move the table. Once
            > I did that, it was a small step to just remove the table to have a
            > look. I understand better now how the gib works. The bigger problem
            > for me is that I don't yet have the experience to know how much drag
            > each axis should have.

            Excellent! I think this is really critical stuff to grasp in order to
            become proficient at using the mill. As for drag, you should be able
            to slide the table by hand (when the lead screw is disengaged) without
            fighting hard. I can't say how many newtons that is, so go for
            whatever feels OK and see if it works out. Don't be afraid to go back
            and readjust if necessary at first. It gets easier.

            > Then there's the fact that I have three indicators (one for the
            > lathe), but no holders. Guess I'll have to make some small clamps
            > that I can use with rods and T-nuts.

            I find a dial test indicator that reads in tenths most useful on the
            mill. I made a mounting clamp out of 1/2" square aluminum bar stock.
            Take a length (3/4" or so) and drill a hole that fits the mounting rod
            on your indicator (mine is a numbered drill size) in one face and a
            close fit hole for a bolt (#6 socket head cap screw, I believe) on the
            perpendicular face on the other. Then cut a slot (hacksaw is fine)
            down the length to the first hole, so the clamp tightens down on the
            mounting rod when screwed to a square nut in the headstock T-slot.

            > Incidentally, how do you perform routine lubrication on the X axis,
            > and how often? The leadscrew isn't accessible except from underneath.

            I lubricate the gibs at least 10x as often as the x- and y-screws,
            basically opening up the table like you did to clean and oil those
            hard to get at lead screws (checking gib adjustment while I'm at it_.
            Maybe someone else has a better method!

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein
            ... I use a pump oiler. Every now and then I just squirt some from the underside to the leadscrew and run it back and forth. No need to disassemble. For the
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 1, 2009
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              > I lubricate the gibs at least 10x as often as the x- and y-screws,
              > basically opening up the table like you did to clean and oil those
              > hard to get at lead screws (checking gib adjustment while I'm at it_.
              > Maybe someone else has a better method!
              I use a pump oiler. Every now and then I just squirt some from the
              underside to the leadscrew and run it back and forth. No need to
              disassemble.
              For the ways I lube each time I run the CNC mill, put a squirt on each
              axis, at each end of the ways, on both sides, front and back. Then run
              the slides to carry the oil. If you oil each time then you never have to
              worry about under oiling...

              A good pump oiler is hard to find these days, I pick them up at yard
              sales...


              --
              felice@... is Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein. See our
              homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html
            • kd006
              Jack, Adjusting gibbs is one of those you get a feel for it type of things. I have a couple of screwdriver type allen wrenches that give a pretty good feel
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 1, 2009
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                Jack,

                Adjusting gibbs is one of those you get a "feel" for it type of things. I have a couple of screwdriver type allen wrenches that give a pretty good feel over "T" handle or "L" allens. You also want to hold back the setscrew as you tighten the locking nuts or they will overtighten the gibs. Using a socket or nutdriver will make things too tight.

                Same goes for adjusting the X,Y and Z plates on the end of the axis these shold be done by feel when the axis is almost all the way to the plates, i.e the X with the table full left, then loosen the bolts and feel the natural center while alternatly tightining them again. The leadscrew nuts should be self alinging in the mounts as they are inserted into the table or base with a round pin. Adjusting those is another "feel" thing to balance the clamp bolts to the setscrew stops.

                I also drilled some 3/16" dia tommybar holes in the table side of the motor couplings to be able to hold them while adjusting the bearings, which by the way are way to easy to damage by over tightining and get gritty and thump as soon as you do.

                Get yourself a good snap-ring tool you are going to need it sooner or later to take things all apart.

                The Taig is by no means a kit , but as they come from the factory can benifit from some TLC and it's not a bad idea to learn all the adjustments and trouble spots before trying to run a job.

                If you have access to some scrap lexan or plexiglass it makes great stuff to practice on if you don't mind the snow like swarf. A bit of WD-40 or WalMart equivelent keeps it in check as you cut.


                Kristin




                --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "noisillator" <tech.writer@...> wrote:
                >
                > Good tip Ian - Thanks!
                >
                > --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "stinson108_1" <stinson108_1@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi There,
                > >
                > > On my z-axis I've run into the need to occasionally tighten the side clamps that pulls the "main body" or moving part on the z-axis (to which the spindle mounts) into the z-axis "ways". I didn't actually have to tighten the gibs as they where already limiting the side to side play on this axis. The clamp got loose over time (some fly cutting) etc.. The z-axis moving "main body" was actually tilting out forward because it wasn't being held down to column "ways" if you will....
                > >
                > > I could tram the head side to side on the x-axis but the y axis readings showed the error.
                > >
                > > Doing this from memory so forgive me if the terms aren't 100% correct.
                > >
                > > Tightening the clamping mechanism up was accomplished by loosesning the clamping screws on the side, squeezing both sides firmly with "quick clamps" and re-tightening the screws. I just used the clampse as a second set of hands, not to sinch the clamp down, just snugged it. After that z-moves nicely.
                > >
                > > Could be a part of your problem. The gibs could be too...
                > >
                > > Just thoughts...
                > >
                > > Ian
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "noisillator" <tech.writer@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Definitely not the lube - this mill has more motor oil in it now than my Ford. :) Actually, I was able to eliminate the noise by adjusting the Z gibs. I'm not sure they're set correctly though. Is the correct procedure written up on your site?
                > > >
                > > > Jack
                > > >
                > > > --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein <felice@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Could be something as simple as lack of lubrication, less simple your
                > > > > gibs need adjusting...
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > noisillator wrote:
                > > > > > My new Taig mill came in over the weekend, and I'm slowly setting it
                > > > > > up. At this point, I have two of the three motors installed, driven
                > > > > > through a Gecko G540 & Mach3. The X axis sounds really smooth jogging
                > > > > > back and forth, pretty much identical to the Youtube videos I've
                > > > > > seen. The Z axis sounds like that too, but only when rising. When
                > > > > > it's descending, there's a loud, low-pitched vibration. The noise is
                > > > > > there anytime the screw is turning, regardless of speed. It sounds
                > > > > > like a resonance involving the way and column, and I don't think it's
                > > > > > the stepper.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I did a search and came across an older thread about this, but the
                > > > > > solution wasn't posted. The owner tried a few things suggested by the
                > > > > > group, but none of it helped. Here's the thread:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/message/21299
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Has anyone else here seen this?
                > > > >
                > > > > --
                > > > > felice@ is Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein. See our
                > > > > homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
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