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Re: Motor interference

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  • Lurch
    Weel, ah...hmmm...set it up last night with 2 ferrite beads from the local Radio Shack on the spindle motor power line, everything ready to run except no tool
    Message 1 of 25 , Mar 1, 2008
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      Weel, ah...hmmm...set it up last night with 2 ferrite beads from the
      local Radio Shack on the spindle motor power line, everything ready
      to run except no tool in the spindle and no spindle drive belt, and
      it flawlessly steppedthrough 16K lines of g-code overnight. Put a
      belt on and a tool in and can't get it to run 5 minutes without e-
      stopping. {Haven't yet received the new controller board from
      Microproto yet].

      It appears the BELT is the source of the problem...which baffles me
      utterly.

      Anyone?

      Lurch

      --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "Lurch" <lurch9@...> wrote:
      >
      > I've been fighting the same thing for a long time now...as long as
      > the spindle motor wasn't running the mill would run my benchmarking
      > rectangular-pocketing program as long as I cared to let it...but
      let
      > me start the spindle motor and in a few seconds to a couple minutes
      > it would e-stop every time.
      >
      > This particular issue was hidden behind other more serious issues
      > with one particular aftermarket controller/stepper setup, and did
      not
      > make itself apparent until I got fed up with that aftermarket setup
      > and switched to the Microproto DSLS steppers and controller.
      >
      > Once I figured out it wasn't a mechanical-binding issue with the
      > mill, wasn't a software issue with Mach3, and wasn't a computer
      > hardware issue because it occurred on 3 different machines, I
      picked
      > up the phone and spoke to Kurt at Microproto, and 30 seconds into
      the
      > conversation he asked me to dry-run it with no power to the
      spindle.
      > As expected it worked fine. Repeated tests over several days
      > established it would run for hours or days with no power to the
      > spindkle and couldn't run a full minute WITH power to the spindle.
      > Long story short, he's sending me a new controller board with
      uprated
      > EMI suppression.
      >
      > In the meantime the mill appears to be running fine with the
      spindle
      > motor powered by an extension cord plugged in across the room on a
      > different circuit.
      > .
      > But just to play it safe [and get the e-cord back to the OL's
      sewing
      > machine <chuckle>] I've ordered some ferrite beads for the spindle
      > motor power cord as well as researching EMI-suppression networks
      and
      > RF bypass capacitors.
      >
      > Lurch
      >
      > --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Demand" <jdemand@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Paul,
      > >
      > > A word about my experiences with a ~1000kva UPS on my taig mill.
      > > It won't start the spindle. My spindle is NOT on the UPS. I have
      it
      > set up
      > > so that a power out age initiates a E stop (trigger relay on raw
      AC
      > power).
      > > It gives me a few minutes for guessing if it is a long out age or
      a
      > > transient. If I suspect long I record all of the positions and
      line
      > number
      > > and shut down the computer. With care and luck I can re-start and
      > continue
      > > when the bastards turn the power back on. Not a perfect solution
      > but it
      > > usually works. My mill, computer, and controller draw ~ 5 amps,
      no
      > way I
      > > can afford a UPS to run a job just on the UPS for hours. I have
      > learned to
      > > Hate the power company but still need them :-)
      > >
      > > Jeff
      > >
      > > PS TuboCnc used, other software might make this easier.
      > >
      > > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
      > >
      > > On 2/12/2008 at 8:26 PM Paul W. Chamberlain wrote:
      > >
      > > >Thanks for the advice. At the prices, I may get both. The beads
      > would
      > > >allow some experimentation with islolation. UPS is out of my
      > budget
      > > >with high Winter bills still coming in.
      > > >
      > > >I had a drop out once in the middle of engraving a key tag.
      > > >Unfortunately, I had set an arbitrary 0,0 over the center of the
      > > >plate held on a backing with Mitee-Grip. I tried to pick up
      center
      > > >from the partially completed cuts with a wiggler, but was a few
      > thou
      > > >off. The key tag looked OK at arms length, but had a "shift" at
      > the
      > > >resume point (MeshCAM code). It was a multi-hour run, and I
      didn't
      > > >want to just scrap the project. I have a UPS for my computers,
      but
      > > >not one with enough wattage to run the mill for hours (4-5 hour
      > black
      > > >out).
      > > >
      > > >Paul, Central OR
      > > >MiniMechanicals.com
      > > >
      > > >*****
      > > >
      > > >--- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, Lester Caine <lester@> wrote:
      > > >>
      > > >> Paul W. Chamberlain wrote:
      > > >> > I found these two choices on eBay:
      > > >> >
      > > >> > http://cgi.ebay.com/TDK-3pc-345-Snap-On-Ferrite-Core-EMI-RFI-
      > >
      >
      >Filters_W0QQitemZ230220781293QQihZ013QQcategoryZ7288QQssPageNameZWDVW
      > Q
      > > >QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
      > > >> >
      > > >> > http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-2-Power-Surge-Protector-3-Outlet-EMI-
      > RFI-
      > >
      >
      >Filter_W0QQitemZ190197686369QQihZ009QQcategoryZ67781QQssPageNameZWDVW
      > Q
      > > >QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
      > > >> Fixing the wrapping ;)
      > > >>
      > > >> > Any preference for one solution over the other?
      > > >> If you are only getting a little problem the core will
      probably
      > be
      > > >fine, but
      > > >> at only a little more the filter is probably a good investment
      > > >anyway.
      > > >>
      > > >> > For some reason, I only get occaisional "ticks" out of my
      Taig
      > > >4th
      > > >> > axis when the Sherline motor/controller is running??? I
      moved
      > the
      > > >> > Sherline cord to another outlet, but on the same circuit
      > > >breaker...
      > > >> > seemed to help.
      > > >> I think is will depend on various factors, but the filters
      over
      > > >here are a lot
      > > >> more expensive :(
      > > >> But then again, I have UPS's on most of the kit here since
      drop
      > > >outs are more
      > > >> of a problem than noise :(
      > > >>
      > > >> --
      > > >> Lester Caine - G8HFL
      > > >> -----------------------------
      > > >> Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact
      > > >> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk
      > > >> MEDW - http://home.lsces.co.uk/ModelEngineersDigitalWorkshop/
      > > >> Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >To Post a message, send it to:
      > > >taigtools@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
      > > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      > > >taigtools-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
      > > >Let the chips fly!
      > > >
      > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > -
      > > Demand Designs
      > > Analog/Digital Modelling & Goldsmithing
      > >
      > > http://www.gmavt.net/~jdemand
      > > jdemand@
      > > -
      > >
      >
    • Steve Blackmore
      ... Likely the drag of the spindle is causing more arcing if it s a brushed motor. Replace power cord with shielded cable and fit a proper filter on the mains
      Message 2 of 25 , Mar 1, 2008
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        On Sat, 01 Mar 2008 19:20:25 -0000, you wrote:

        >Weel, ah...hmmm...set it up last night with 2 ferrite beads from the
        >local Radio Shack on the spindle motor power line, everything ready
        >to run except no tool in the spindle and no spindle drive belt, and
        >it flawlessly steppedthrough 16K lines of g-code overnight. Put a
        >belt on and a tool in and can't get it to run 5 minutes without e-
        >stopping. {Haven't yet received the new controller board from
        >Microproto yet].
        >
        >It appears the BELT is the source of the problem...which baffles me
        >utterly.
        >
        >Anyone?

        Likely the drag of the spindle is causing more arcing if it's a brushed
        motor.

        Replace power cord with shielded cable and fit a proper filter on the
        mains also make sure the machine is grounded. Filters are often
        available on ebay, best ones are sold as accessories for VFD's

        Do a search for line filter or mains filter.

        Steve Blackmore
        --
      • Lurch
        While I m still awaiting the new controller board with uprated EMI suppression, I took one of the ferrite beads off the spindle motor mains supply and put it
        Message 3 of 25 , Mar 1, 2008
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          While I'm still awaiting the new controller board with uprated EMI
          suppression, I took one of the ferrite beads off the spindle motor
          mains supply and put it on the parallel port cable going back to the
          PC. It ran the whole benchmarking pocketing program once, with a
          tool aqnd a workpiece, so nothing conclusive yet, but I'm keeping my
          fingers crossed...

          Lurch

          --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, Steve Blackmore <steve@...> wrote:
          >
          > On Sat, 01 Mar 2008 19:20:25 -0000, you wrote:
          >
          > >Weel, ah...hmmm...set it up last night with 2 ferrite beads from
          the
          > >local Radio Shack on the spindle motor power line, everything
          ready
          > >to run except no tool in the spindle and no spindle drive belt,
          and
          > >it flawlessly steppedthrough 16K lines of g-code overnight. Put a
          > >belt on and a tool in and can't get it to run 5 minutes without e-
          > >stopping. {Haven't yet received the new controller board from
          > >Microproto yet].
          > >
          > >It appears the BELT is the source of the problem...which baffles
          me
          > >utterly.
          > >
          > >Anyone?
          >
          > Likely the drag of the spindle is causing more arcing if it's a
          brushed
          > motor.
          >
          > Replace power cord with shielded cable and fit a proper filter on
          the
          > mains also make sure the machine is grounded. Filters are often
          > available on ebay, best ones are sold as accessories for VFD's
          >
          > Do a search for line filter or mains filter.
          >
          > Steve Blackmore
          > --
          >
        • Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein
          Well, that took forever and a day! New pictures from Andrey Kim, Christian Avart, Christopher Warren, and Neils Jalling. There is now a PDF of all 7 pages of
          Message 4 of 25 , Mar 1, 2008
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            Well, that took forever and a day!
            New pictures from Andrey Kim, Christian Avart, Christopher Warren, and
            Neils Jalling.
            There is now a PDF of all 7 pages of Stephen Campbell's boring head in
            his section on the picture page.

            A great article by Keith Brooke on making an index plate for the Taig
            lathe, and I wrote up a short article on making aperture froont sight
            inserts on the Taig lathe.
            Also a few links here and there including a Taig User link to Eugene
            Sargent's Orrery, made with a Taig CNC mill. Amazing!

            I also changed the price lists to reflect Taig no longer selling the
            mills with the standard spindle. Although they will make them with the
            standard spindle as a special order, they are assembling all mills as ER
            from now on.

            As always, let my feeble brain know of any problems, etc...I fixed a few
            dead links, or noted when I couldn't, etc. Now for a late supper...

            Nick
            www.cartertools.com

            --
            felice@... is Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein. See our
            homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html
          • mbonfire2002
            The ferrite beads may solve your problem...they are very effective for very high frequencies (typically considered RF ). However, EMI sources such as brush
            Message 5 of 25 , Mar 2, 2008
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              The ferrite beads may solve your problem...they are very effective for
              very high frequencies (typically considered "RF"). However, EMI
              sources such as brush noise have extremely broad frequency content and
              it may be that the lower frequency components are involved in your
              problem. Ferrites are definitely worth a try (really no practical
              downside) but it may take a more sophisticated multicomponent
              suppression filter (capacitors as well as inductors/ferrites).

              Steve



              --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "Lurch" <lurch9@...> wrote:
              >
              > While I'm still awaiting the new controller board with uprated EMI
              > suppression, I took one of the ferrite beads off the spindle motor
              > mains supply and put it on the parallel port cable going back to the
              > PC. It ran the whole benchmarking pocketing program once, with a
              > tool aqnd a workpiece, so nothing conclusive yet, but I'm keeping my
              > fingers crossed...
              >
              > Lurch
              >
              > --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, Steve Blackmore <steve@> wrote:
              > >
              > > On Sat, 01 Mar 2008 19:20:25 -0000, you wrote:
              > >
              > > >Weel, ah...hmmm...set it up last night with 2 ferrite beads from
              > the
              > > >local Radio Shack on the spindle motor power line, everything
              > ready
              > > >to run except no tool in the spindle and no spindle drive belt,
              > and
              > > >it flawlessly steppedthrough 16K lines of g-code overnight. Put a
              > > >belt on and a tool in and can't get it to run 5 minutes without e-
              > > >stopping. {Haven't yet received the new controller board from
              > > >Microproto yet].
              > > >
              > > >It appears the BELT is the source of the problem...which baffles
              > me
              > > >utterly.
              > > >
              > > >Anyone?
              > >
              > > Likely the drag of the spindle is causing more arcing if it's a
              > brushed
              > > motor.
              > >
              > > Replace power cord with shielded cable and fit a proper filter on
              > the
              > > mains also make sure the machine is grounded. Filters are often
              > > available on ebay, best ones are sold as accessories for VFD's
              > >
              > > Do a search for line filter or mains filter.
              > >
              > > Steve Blackmore
              > > --
              > >
              >
            • Bertho Boman
              A few more general suggestions: 1. Try to run a separate short heavy ground wire between the mill, controller and the PC. 2. Do not coil excess
              Message 6 of 25 , Mar 2, 2008
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                A few more general suggestions:

                1. Try to run a separate short "heavy" ground wire between the mill,
                controller and the PC.



                2. Do not coil excess wires or cables. They will form a coil that
                either radiates more energy or picks up more interference. The correct way
                is to fold the wires back and forth and tie the bundle together and they
                will cancel out the effect.



                3. In the case of external interference, (not this case) it is very
                important that all the equipment is plugged into one common outlet and that
                there are no other secondary ground connections. This rule is often broken
                because of modem connections or LANs and that is creating more damage in
                case of lightning transients or other high-voltage induced problems.



                4. If an interference filter is added, place it on the motor line cord
                before plugging into the common outlet.



                5. This can be further improved by also placing filters on the PC
                cords and the controller cords. Basically the interference has to go
                through two filters in this case.



                6. Separate the motor cable far away from the other cables. The
                interference might couple magnetically directly into the other wires.

                Good Luck and happy hunting!

                Bertho



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Lurch
                Well, let s see...so far I have two ferrites, one on the parallel port cable and one on the mains supply to the spindle motor. And more ferrites en route.
                Message 7 of 25 , Mar 2, 2008
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                  Well, let's see...so far I have two ferrites, one on the parallel
                  port cable and one on the mains supply to the spindle motor. And
                  more ferrites en route.

                  After yesterday's trip to Radio Shack there's also an EMI-suppressed
                  surge protector supplying mains power to the whole setup. All
                  encoder cables are dressed well away from any mains cables.

                  Last run with spindke power it got to line 2500-odd before giving an
                  e-stop indication.

                  If I understand things right, the way it's wired, all 3 axes' servo
                  errors and the e-stop itself, are all on one parallel port pin.
                  That's pretty much what I'm limited to. I'm using Mach3 with
                  Microproto's controller. Debounce is set to 5000.

                  I just restarted it with no power to the spindle motor. Again.

                  We'll see what happens.

                  I don't know for sure if it's a brushed motor or what. It's a 1/8HP
                  Dayton p/n 3M292 permanent split capacitor. I wouldn't expect it to
                  have brushes...but I'm not a "motor guy".

                  I also question whether the parallel port config [EPP vs ECP vs SPP]
                  makes any difference. Supposedly it shouldn't, but I have to wonder.

                  Regards,
                  Lurch

                  --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "Bertho Boman" <boman01@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > A few more general suggestions:
                  >
                  > 1. Try to run a separate short "heavy" ground wire between
                  the mill,
                  > controller and the PC.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > 2. Do not coil excess wires or cables. They will form a coil
                  that
                  > either radiates more energy or picks up more interference. The
                  correct way
                  > is to fold the wires back and forth and tie the bundle together and
                  they
                  > will cancel out the effect.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > 3. In the case of external interference, (not this case) it
                  is very
                  > important that all the equipment is plugged into one common outlet
                  and that
                  > there are no other secondary ground connections. This rule is
                  often broken
                  > because of modem connections or LANs and that is creating more
                  damage in
                  > case of lightning transients or other high-voltage induced problems.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > 4. If an interference filter is added, place it on the motor
                  line cord
                  > before plugging into the common outlet.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > 5. This can be further improved by also placing filters on
                  the PC
                  > cords and the controller cords. Basically the interference has to
                  go
                  > through two filters in this case.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > 6. Separate the motor cable far away from the other cables.
                  The
                  > interference might couple magnetically directly into the other
                  wires.
                  >
                  > Good Luck and happy hunting!
                  >
                  > Bertho
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Ken Cline
                  ... Permanent split capacitor means it is an AC motor with a starting winding in series with a capacitor that is non-switched (i.e. permanently connected).
                  Message 8 of 25 , Mar 2, 2008
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                    On 2 Mar 2008, at 10:15 AM, Lurch wrote:

                    > I don't know for sure if it's a brushed motor or what. It's a 1/8HP
                    > Dayton p/n 3M292 permanent split capacitor. I wouldn't expect it to
                    > have brushes...but I'm not a "motor guy".

                    "Permanent split capacitor" means it is an AC motor with a starting
                    winding in series with a capacitor that is non-switched (i.e.
                    permanently connected). The capacitor shifts the phase of the
                    starter winding current to give the motor a push in the right
                    direction as it starts. Leaving the started connected reduces
                    efficiency, so other types of motors have switches that kick in when
                    the motor is up to speed.

                    There are no brushes in your motor, so I would not expect a great
                    deal of high frequency noise. Still, motors draw more power under
                    load, which will increase any electrical noise.

                    > I also question whether the parallel port config [EPP vs ECP vs SPP]
                    > makes any difference. Supposedly it shouldn't, but I have to wonder.

                    You can question it. My question in reply is why would this vary
                    with motor load?

                    FWIW, my digital electronics are isolated from the motors with a
                    power conditioner/ups. Another possibility for isolation might be to
                    run the motor off a separate phase of AC power (though wiring a new
                    outlet might be more trouble than other options).

                    Good Luck!

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Lurch
                    OK, thank you Ken, I understand, it s not a brushed motor, so arcing at the motor brushes isn t an issue. All I know about RFI [EMI] is hang .01uF s across it
                    Message 9 of 25 , Mar 2, 2008
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                      OK, thank you Ken, I understand, it's not a brushed motor, so arcing
                      at the motor brushes isn't an issue.

                      All I know about RFI [EMI] is "hang .01uF's across it until the
                      problem goes away"...but I'm wondering if the real problem here isn't
                      lower-freq.

                      If the new uprated controller board due in sometime this week doesn't
                      fix it I suppose I'll have to bite the bullet for a UPS for the PC
                      and controller next...running the spindle motor off a different
                      circuit via a long extension cord temporarily pirated from the YL's
                      sewing machine seemed to help a little...but I'm not sure most of my
                      gains there weren't cancelled by the longer length of e-cord acting
                      as a radiator...the building is wood frame on a concrete slab with
                      conduit-and-wire 240V mains. The circuit for the CNC stuff is new.
                      There was a GFI on that line but it kept tripping for no apparent
                      reason so I replaced it with a regular outlet. Voltage drop between
                      ground at that outlet and ground at the breaker panel, was too small
                      to measure on my cheapie VOM.

                      What's odd is the shop flourescent lights at one end, the PSC motor
                      on the air compressor, and halide bay lights at the other end, all
                      don't seem to matter whether they're on or off. Frustratingly, it is
                      logically impossible to prove the absence of something, but
                      empirically it looksmore and more to be the freaking spindle motor.
                      That was the first thing Kurt at Microproto cottoned onto. I note
                      teh 1/8HP PSC is no longer current spect for Taig at all...even the
                      manual mills get a 1/5HP motor now...I'm seriously wondering if that
                      1/8HP motor is just inherently noisier.



                      Lurch

                      --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, Ken Cline <cline@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > On 2 Mar 2008, at 10:15 AM, Lurch wrote:
                      >
                      > > I don't know for sure if it's a brushed motor or what. It's a
                      1/8HP
                      > > Dayton p/n 3M292 permanent split capacitor. I wouldn't expect it
                      to
                      > > have brushes...but I'm not a "motor guy".
                      >
                      > "Permanent split capacitor" means it is an AC motor with a
                      starting
                      > winding in series with a capacitor that is non-switched (i.e.
                      > permanently connected). The capacitor shifts the phase of the
                      > starter winding current to give the motor a push in the right
                      > direction as it starts. Leaving the started connected reduces
                      > efficiency, so other types of motors have switches that kick in
                      when
                      > the motor is up to speed.
                      >
                      > There are no brushes in your motor, so I would not expect a great
                      > deal of high frequency noise. Still, motors draw more power under
                      > load, which will increase any electrical noise.
                      >
                      > > I also question whether the parallel port config [EPP vs ECP vs
                      SPP]
                      > > makes any difference. Supposedly it shouldn't, but I have to
                      wonder.
                      >
                      > You can question it. My question in reply is why would this vary
                      > with motor load?
                      >
                      > FWIW, my digital electronics are isolated from the motors with a
                      > power conditioner/ups. Another possibility for isolation might be
                      to
                      > run the motor off a separate phase of AC power (though wiring a
                      new
                      > outlet might be more trouble than other options).
                      >
                      > Good Luck!
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Bertho Boman
                      Since we now know that it is a brushless motor it removes the brushes as a possible source of the noise. The motor also radiates a magnetic field that can
                      Message 10 of 25 , Mar 2, 2008
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                        Since we now know that it is a brushless motor it removes the brushes as a
                        possible source of the noise.



                        The motor also radiates a magnetic field that can couple into other wires
                        around it. The magnetic field is proportional to the motor current and to
                        the load so there will only be a rather small field when running without a
                        load and much bigger one when you load it up.



                        To try to force it to fail and make it easier to trouble shoot, use a big
                        milling cutter and take heavy cuts to really load down the motor and it
                        ought to fail quickly if that is the failure mode.

                        Bertho



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Jeff Demand
                        Lurch, I use the larger 1/4 hp motor (standard on cnc ready, I think also a split capacitor design. No problems with noise, just the damn power company not
                        Message 11 of 25 , Mar 2, 2008
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                          Lurch,

                          I use the larger 1/4 hp motor (standard on cnc ready, I think also a
                          split capacitor design. No problems with noise, just the damn power company
                          not always being there.A BIG ups running everything was my large hammer
                          attempt at a solution... worked fine except that the ups wouldn't start the
                          spindle :-( Spindle is now on a non ups circuit, a half assed solution but
                          all those $ spent seemed to cause the power to be more reliable. Don't
                          assume that a ups will start the spindle.

                          GFI outlets do tend to go bad with time, try a new one. If it trips there
                          might really be something wrong which would warrant further investigation.

                          Jeff

                          *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

                          On 3/2/2008 at 6:58 PM Lurch wrote:

                          >OK, thank you Ken, I understand, it's not a brushed motor, so arcing
                          >at the motor brushes isn't an issue.
                          >
                          >All I know about RFI [EMI] is "hang .01uF's across it until the
                          >problem goes away"...but I'm wondering if the real problem here isn't
                          >lower-freq.
                          >
                          >If the new uprated controller board due in sometime this week doesn't
                          >fix it I suppose I'll have to bite the bullet for a UPS for the PC
                          >and controller next...running the spindle motor off a different
                          >circuit via a long extension cord temporarily pirated from the YL's
                          >sewing machine seemed to help a little...but I'm not sure most of my
                          >gains there weren't cancelled by the longer length of e-cord acting
                          >as a radiator...the building is wood frame on a concrete slab with
                          >conduit-and-wire 240V mains. The circuit for the CNC stuff is new.
                          >There was a GFI on that line but it kept tripping for no apparent
                          >reason so I replaced it with a regular outlet. Voltage drop between
                          >ground at that outlet and ground at the breaker panel, was too small
                          >to measure on my cheapie VOM.
                          >
                          >What's odd is the shop flourescent lights at one end, the PSC motor
                          >on the air compressor, and halide bay lights at the other end, all
                          >don't seem to matter whether they're on or off. Frustratingly, it is
                          >logically impossible to prove the absence of something, but
                          >empirically it looksmore and more to be the freaking spindle motor.
                          >That was the first thing Kurt at Microproto cottoned onto. I note
                          >teh 1/8HP PSC is no longer current spect for Taig at all...even the
                          >manual mills get a 1/5HP motor now...I'm seriously wondering if that
                          >1/8HP motor is just inherently noisier.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >Lurch
                          >
                          >--- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, Ken Cline <cline@...> wrote:
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> On 2 Mar 2008, at 10:15 AM, Lurch wrote:
                          >>
                          >> > I don't know for sure if it's a brushed motor or what. It's a
                          >1/8HP
                          >> > Dayton p/n 3M292 permanent split capacitor. I wouldn't expect it
                          >to
                          >> > have brushes...but I'm not a "motor guy".
                          >>
                          >> "Permanent split capacitor" means it is an AC motor with a
                          >starting
                          >> winding in series with a capacitor that is non-switched (i.e.
                          >> permanently connected). The capacitor shifts the phase of the
                          >> starter winding current to give the motor a push in the right
                          >> direction as it starts. Leaving the started connected reduces
                          >> efficiency, so other types of motors have switches that kick in
                          >when
                          >> the motor is up to speed.
                          >>
                          >> There are no brushes in your motor, so I would not expect a great
                          >> deal of high frequency noise. Still, motors draw more power under
                          >> load, which will increase any electrical noise.
                          >>
                          >> > I also question whether the parallel port config [EPP vs ECP vs
                          >SPP]
                          >> > makes any difference. Supposedly it shouldn't, but I have to
                          >wonder.
                          >>
                          >> You can question it. My question in reply is why would this vary
                          >> with motor load?
                          >>
                          >> FWIW, my digital electronics are isolated from the motors with a
                          >> power conditioner/ups. Another possibility for isolation might be
                          >to
                          >> run the motor off a separate phase of AC power (though wiring a
                          >new
                          >> outlet might be more trouble than other options).
                          >>
                          >> Good Luck!
                          >>
                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >To Post a message, send it to:
                          >taigtools@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                          >taigtools-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >Let the chips fly!
                          >
                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          -
                          Demand Designs
                          Analog/Digital Modelling & Goldsmithing

                          http://www.gmavt.net/~jdemand
                          jdemand@...
                          -
                        • Don Rogers
                          I fought this bug a couple years back, The problem was pronounced at high spindle RPM and went away at slower RPMs. I first discovered it when the motor was
                          Message 12 of 25 , Mar 2, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I fought this bug a couple years back, The problem was pronounced at high
                            spindle RPM and went away at slower RPMs. I first discovered it when the
                            motor was running high speed and no movement was taking place. Every now
                            and then I would hear a Click. I finally found it was the Z stepper taking
                            a step on it’s own. The problem is static electricity building up on the
                            head. The motor plug in a standard motor setup isn’t grounded. The anodized
                            aluminum is a great insulator, so with the insulating qualities of the belt,
                            you have a miniature Van de Graff (SP?) generator working. A couple ground
                            straps, column to Z slide and motor to Z slide should eliminate the problem.
                            It wouldn’t hurt to use one more, spindle to Z slide. The donuts are a good
                            addition also.

                            I’ve been down for over a year and am just putting things back together, so
                            I am thinking of using a number of star washers to break the insulating
                            effects of the anodizing.

                            Don




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Lurch
                            I m assuming you drilled and tapped for teh strap attachment points? Thanks Lurch ... at high ... when the ... Every now ... stepper taking ... on the ...
                            Message 13 of 25 , Mar 2, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I'm assuming you drilled and tapped for teh strap attachment points?

                              Thanks
                              Lurch

                              --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "Don Rogers" <Don@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I fought this bug a couple years back, The problem was pronounced
                              at high
                              > spindle RPM and went away at slower RPMs. I first discovered it
                              when the
                              > motor was running high speed and no movement was taking place.
                              Every now
                              > and then I would hear a Click. I finally found it was the Z
                              stepper taking
                              > a step on it's own. The problem is static electricity building up
                              on the
                              > head. The motor plug in a standard motor setup isn't grounded. The
                              anodized
                              > aluminum is a great insulator, so with the insulating qualities of
                              the belt,
                              > you have a miniature Van de Graff (SP?) generator working. A
                              couple ground
                              > straps, column to Z slide and motor to Z slide should eliminate the
                              problem.
                              > It wouldn't hurt to use one more, spindle to Z slide. The donuts
                              are a good
                              > addition also.
                              >
                              > I've been down for over a year and am just putting things back
                              together, so
                              > I am thinking of using a number of star washers to break the
                              insulating
                              > effects of the anodizing.
                              >
                              > Don
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • blmartech
                              If I understand things right, the way it s wired, all 3 axes servo ... mybe the problem is not the e-stop sounds like it could be an encoder issue why not
                              Message 14 of 25 , Mar 3, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                "> If I understand things right, the way it's wired, all 3 axes'
                                servo
                                > errors and the e-stop itself, are all on one parallel port pin."

                                mybe the problem is not the e-stop sounds like it could be an
                                encoder issue why not try to isolate the problem, hook up one
                                encoder error line at a time to see if problem persists, then try
                                the e-stop, you should only hook one up at a time (for
                                troubleshooting purposes) see which input is causing the issue.

                                also if you cant figure it out you can always use a keyboard encoder
                                (like used in mame arcade machines and hook the e-stop to that) also
                                if using mach3 check the kernal settings i had an issue with a
                                creeping z axis and found it to be a problem with the kernal speed
                                setting in mach3 had to set it on 25000 it was on 35000




                                --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "Lurch" <lurch9@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Well, let's see...so far I have two ferrites, one on the parallel
                                > port cable and one on the mains supply to the spindle motor. And
                                > more ferrites en route.
                                >
                                > After yesterday's trip to Radio Shack there's also an EMI-
                                suppressed
                                > surge protector supplying mains power to the whole setup. All
                                > encoder cables are dressed well away from any mains cables.
                                >
                                > Last run with spindke power it got to line 2500-odd before giving
                                > If I understand things right, the way it's wired, all 3 axes'
                                servo
                                > errors and the e-stop itself, are all on one parallel port pin.an
                                > e-stop indication.
                                >

                                > That's pretty much what I'm limited to. I'm using Mach3 with
                                > Microproto's controller. Debounce is set to 5000.
                                >
                                > I just restarted it with no power to the spindle motor. Again.
                                >
                                > We'll see what happens.
                                >
                                > I don't know for sure if it's a brushed motor or what. It's a
                                1/8HP
                                > Dayton p/n 3M292 permanent split capacitor. I wouldn't expect it
                                to
                                > have brushes...but I'm not a "motor guy".
                                >
                                > I also question whether the parallel port config [EPP vs ECP vs
                                SPP]
                                > makes any difference. Supposedly it shouldn't, but I have to
                                wonder.
                                >
                                > Regards,
                                > Lurch
                                >
                                > --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "Bertho Boman" <boman01@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > A few more general suggestions:
                                > >
                                > > 1. Try to run a separate short "heavy" ground wire between
                                > the mill,
                                > > controller and the PC.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > 2. Do not coil excess wires or cables. They will form a
                                coil
                                > that
                                > > either radiates more energy or picks up more interference. The
                                > correct way
                                > > is to fold the wires back and forth and tie the bundle together
                                and
                                > they
                                > > will cancel out the effect.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > 3. In the case of external interference, (not this case)
                                it
                                > is very
                                > > important that all the equipment is plugged into one common
                                outlet
                                > and that
                                > > there are no other secondary ground connections. This rule is
                                > often broken
                                > > because of modem connections or LANs and that is creating more
                                > damage in
                                > > case of lightning transients or other high-voltage induced
                                problems.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > 4. If an interference filter is added, place it on the
                                motor
                                > line cord
                                > > before plugging into the common outlet.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > 5. This can be further improved by also placing filters on
                                > the PC
                                > > cords and the controller cords. Basically the interference has
                                to
                                > go
                                > > through two filters in this case.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > 6. Separate the motor cable far away from the other
                                cables.
                                > The
                                > > interference might couple magnetically directly into the other
                                > wires.
                                > >
                                > > Good Luck and happy hunting!
                                > >
                                > > Bertho
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
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