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Re: [taigtools] Re:Work Hold Downs on a Taig Mill

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  • Codesuidae
    ... Members of TEBA and back issues of their newsletter would probably be a good bet. http://my.execpc.com/~teba/main.html I ve considered doing that as well,
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 11, 2005
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      Clive Foster wrote:

      >One of the projects on my sometime/maybe/but prolly never lists is to
      >try making a Tesla Turbine type compressor. [...] Big stopper is that I've yet to find housing shape and dimension, or at least how to calculate them,
      >data.
      >
      Members of TEBA and back issues of their newsletter would probably be a
      good bet.

      http://my.execpc.com/~teba/main.html

      I've considered doing that as well, but its way down on the todo list.

      Dave K
    • nattyone960
      ... lotsa holes ... holes, the ... chance ... holes. ... makes ... thing ... project ... to ... won t ... information ... locator ... not ... exist, ... high
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
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        --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, benedict-list@... wrote:
        >
        > Let me ammend this after reading what Dave wrote. When I said
        lotsa holes
        > I was thinking in terms of a general purpose table. The more
        holes, the
        > more flexibility you have when using it because there's a better
        chance
        > that whatever you put on the table will cover a large number of
        holes.
        > Lotsa holes won't necessarily improve your holding force. It just
        makes
        > it easier to put a part down and have a reasonably good chance the
        thing
        > will grab it.
        >
        > If you can build a special purpose vacuum fixture on a project-by-
        project
        > basis the way Dave did, by all means go this route. It allows you
        to
        > incorporate features specific to the part that a more general setup
        won't
        > have. Even the manufacturer's site I looked at for pump
        information
        > touched on this. One service they offer is installation of custom
        locator
        > pins and custom hole patterns, depending on what the customer needs.
        >
        > One other consideration on the vacuum pump: Throughput is almost
        not
        > important with a perfect, leak-free system. Such a system does not
        exist,
        > though, unfortunately. Basically your pump throughput has to be
        high
        > enough to overcome whatever leaks your system has and still hold
        you at a
        > vacuum that will let you do what you need to do. This is as true
        for
        > vacuum tables as it is for high vacuum lab equipment. But since
        every
        > system has leaks, pump speed is an issue. You can deal with this
        by
        > getting a faster pump, or by attacking your leaks.
        >
        > Another issue that Dave mentioned that bears re-mentioning is
        conductance.
        > The fatter the channel between part and pump, the better your pump
        speed.
        > For example, if you're sucking a drink through a 1/8" diameter
        straw,
        > it'll take you longer to empty the cup than if you drink through a
        1/4"
        > diameter straw. (And for the experimenter, you can always opt to
        use the
        > full aperture of the system... lean back and dump the cup into your
        > mouth.)
        >
        > One trick you can do to cut down on leaks is to use some sort of
        vacuum
        > grease on your table. Put a thin (THIN!) layer on the table, then
        put the
        > part down. Cover up all the unused holes and open the vacuum valve
        or
        > turn on the pump. This may be enough to help with the system
        you've got.
        >
        > And in case you're short on vacuum grease, one of the greases sold
        by
        > Apiezon is basically Vaseline. It's got a low vapor pressure and
        works
        > fine. If Vaseline is too thin, you can heat it up and add a little
        wax to
        > the mix. When cooled, it's stiffer and sticks to metal better.
        >
        > Tom
        >


        Thanks very much I will print and read.
      • nattyone960
        ... good ... Milling_W0QQitemZ7586886712QQcategoryZ25297QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcm dZViewItem ...
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
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          --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, benedict-list@... wrote:
          >
          > Dang it, sorry about replying to my own reply, but you posted a
          good
          > question.
          >
          > Here's a commercial vacuum table on ebay:
          >
          > http://cgi.ebay.com/Vacuum-Table-8-x-12-for-engraver-Laser-CNC-
          Milling_W0QQitemZ7586886712QQcategoryZ25297QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcm
          dZViewItem
          >
          > And here's one that looks shop-made:
          >
          > http://cgi.ebay.com/Vacuum-Table-120mm-x-80mm-Base-
          Plate_W0QQitemZ7586466838QQcategoryZ50928QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZ
          ViewItem
          >
          >

          Yes I saw these this morning early, bleary eyed, when I figured I
          would give up my dream and just buy one.

          To add to your list here are two articles I traced from the ShopBot
          web site.

          http://www.baycraftdesigns.com/Shopbot.html

          http://www.seasidesmallcraft.com/table.htm

          Of course these are scaled larger than what we want but the principle
          remains the same.
        • nattyone960
          ... principle is the same. ... Thanks. The problem is that he uses a Venturi Vacuum which is good for stuf that will clamp and help to provide a seal, but
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
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            --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, Bernice & Al <saglek@...> wrote:
            >
            > Try this site. Although it's a woodworking site the vacuum holdown
            principle is the same.
            >
            > http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/welcome.htm
            >
            > Al


            Thanks.
            The problem is that he uses a Venturi Vacuum which is good for stuf
            that will clamp and help to provide a seal, but cutting a design can
            last a few seconds to hours and sometimes will have to e cut through.
            This will put too much strain on any compressor based system, even with
            a tank and a regeneritive air system.
          • nattyone960
            ... darn ... Normally ... Hot ... Thanks I will try your grid. Mine was ased on a 8 x 4 pattern with one zone.
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
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              --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, Codesuidae <codesuidae@...> wrote:
              >
              > A couple of pictures:
              >
              > <http://codesuidae.net/images/mill/KeyChainVacTable1.jpg>
              > <http://codesuidae.net/images/mill/KeyChainVacTable2.jpg>
              >
              > I don't have the vacuum attached in this picture, as it is just too
              darn
              > loud to listen to for the hour it takes to do a set of parts.
              Normally
              > it connects to the half-inch hole at the left end of the table.
              Hot
              > glue is working very nicely for this project though.
              >
              > Dave K
              >
              > Codesuidae wrote:
              >


              Thanks I will try your grid.
              Mine was ased on a 8 x 4 pattern with one zone.
            • nattyone960
              ... vacuum have ... table ... On Behalf ... principle ... Here is a better setup than the Venturi System of course this is from an 8 x 4 router, but the
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
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                --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, "Kenny Wu" <kenwu@...> wrote:
                >
                > Very interesting... I want to build one now! :-) But will the
                vacuum have
                > enough holding strength for milling alu? Would love to see some
                table
                > designs if anyone has more info in this.
                >
                > Ken Wu
                >
                >
                > _____
                >
                > From: taigtools@yahoogroups.com [mailto:taigtools@yahoogroups.com]
                On Behalf
                > Of Bernice & Al
                > Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 1:22 PM
                > To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [taigtools] Work Hold Downs on a Taig Mill
                >
                >
                > Try this site. Although it's a woodworking site the vacuum holdown
                principle
                > is the same.
                >
                > http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/welcome.htm
                >
                > Al
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: nattyone960
                > To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 1:09 PM
                > Subject: [taigtools] Work Hold Downs on a Taig Mill
                >
                >

                Here is a better setup than the Venturi System of course this is from
                an 8 x 4 router, but the principle remains the same. A friend of mine
                who has such a router built a very sucessful vac-hold based on this
                model:

                http://www.seasidesmallcraft.com/table.htm

                http://www.baycraftdesigns.com/Shopbot.html

                http://www.shopbottools.com/jamboree05vacuum.htm
              • Clive Foster
                ... I ve never tried it but a Tesla Turbine type compressor looks if it might be a quiet and relatively easy to build source of high volume suction.
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
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                  >> Try this site. Although it's a woodworking site the vacuum holdown
                  > principle is the same.
                  >>
                  >> http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/welcome.htm
                  >>
                  >> Al
                  >
                  >
                  > Thanks.
                  > The problem is that he uses a Venturi Vacuum which is good for stuf
                  > that will clamp and help to provide a seal, but cutting a design can
                  > last a few seconds to hours and sometimes will have to e cut through.
                  > This will put too much strain on any compressor based system, even
                  > with
                  > a tank and a regeneritive air system.

                  I've never tried it but a Tesla Turbine type compressor looks if it
                  might be a quiet and relatively easy to build source of high volume
                  suction.
                  Essentially a Tesla Turbine is just a stack of close spaced disks
                  spinning in a shaped and ported housing of appropriate geometry
                  depending on whether its a vacuum pump/compressor or turbine. Disks
                  need to be close together and of good finish but, theoretically you
                  can get lots of air throughput from a small beastie spinning at
                  induction motor speeds. No mega-rev noisy fan as per the common suck
                  broom.

                  One of the projects on my sometime/maybe/but prolly never lists is to
                  try making a Tesla Turbine type compressor. Plan A is to use
                  platters out of old hard drives for the disks and gut a dead
                  induction motor for the ends, bearing housing and main shaft so all I
                  have to make is the housing. Big stopper is that I've yet to find
                  housing shape and dimension, or at least how to calculate them,
                  data. There are a couple of designs for power turbines out there but
                  only layout sketches for compressors.

                  Clive
                • benedict-list@hawaii.rr.com
                  ... How big a system are you looking at building? Tom
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
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                    On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, nattyone960 wrote:

                    > http://www.seasidesmallcraft.com/table.htm
                    >
                    > http://www.baycraftdesigns.com/Shopbot.html
                    >
                    > http://www.shopbottools.com/jamboree05vacuum.htm

                    How big a system are you looking at building?

                    Tom
                  • benedict-list@hawaii.rr.com
                    ... At the risk of being utterly and completely vague, I m pretty sure the curve for the housing on a Tesla blower is an involute. Past that, yeah, info gets
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
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                      On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Clive Foster wrote:

                      > I've never tried it but a Tesla Turbine type compressor looks if it
                      > might be a quiet and relatively easy to build source of high volume
                      > suction. Essentially a Tesla Turbine is just a stack of close spaced
                      > disks spinning in a shaped and ported housing of appropriate geometry
                      > depending on whether its a vacuum pump/compressor or turbine. Disks
                      > need to be close together and of good finish but, theoretically you can
                      > get lots of air throughput from a small beastie spinning at induction
                      > motor speeds. No mega-rev noisy fan as per the common suck broom.
                      >
                      > One of the projects on my sometime/maybe/but prolly never lists is to
                      > try making a Tesla Turbine type compressor. Plan A is to use platters
                      > out of old hard drives for the disks and gut a dead induction motor for
                      > the ends, bearing housing and main shaft so all I have to make is the
                      > housing. Big stopper is that I've yet to find housing shape and
                      > dimension, or at least how to calculate them, data. There are a couple
                      > of designs for power turbines out there but only layout sketches for
                      > compressors.

                      At the risk of being utterly and completely vague, I'm pretty sure the
                      curve for the housing on a Tesla blower is an involute. Past that, yeah,
                      info gets sketchy. Seems like this'd be a good area to explore!

                      There IS a commercial outfit that makes Tesla pumps. Apparently the
                      non-impinging nature of the turbine makes it... em... particularly
                      well-suited to... well... pumping untreated sewage. From what their
                      literature says the thing makes an outstanding poopy pump. And since the
                      design is very flexible in terms of rotor thickness, spacing, stack size,
                      etc. you can tune your pump to the nature of... well... the poop in
                      question. At the very least you might give them a call and see if they
                      could point you toward any information that'd help with the design of a
                      pump that pumps AIR!

                      Tom
                    • nattyone960
                      ... it ... volume ... spaced ... geometry ... Disks ... you can ... induction ... is to ... platters ... motor for ... the ... couple ... for ... the ... yeah,
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 4, 2006
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                        --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, benedict-list@... wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Clive Foster wrote:
                        >
                        > > I've never tried it but a Tesla Turbine type compressor looks if
                        it
                        > > might be a quiet and relatively easy to build source of high
                        volume
                        > > suction. Essentially a Tesla Turbine is just a stack of close
                        spaced
                        > > disks spinning in a shaped and ported housing of appropriate
                        geometry
                        > > depending on whether its a vacuum pump/compressor or turbine.
                        Disks
                        > > need to be close together and of good finish but, theoretically
                        you can
                        > > get lots of air throughput from a small beastie spinning at
                        induction
                        > > motor speeds. No mega-rev noisy fan as per the common suck broom.
                        > >
                        > > One of the projects on my sometime/maybe/but prolly never lists
                        is to
                        > > try making a Tesla Turbine type compressor. Plan A is to use
                        platters
                        > > out of old hard drives for the disks and gut a dead induction
                        motor for
                        > > the ends, bearing housing and main shaft so all I have to make is
                        the
                        > > housing. Big stopper is that I've yet to find housing shape and
                        > > dimension, or at least how to calculate them, data. There are a
                        couple
                        > > of designs for power turbines out there but only layout sketches
                        for
                        > > compressors.
                        >
                        > At the risk of being utterly and completely vague, I'm pretty sure
                        the
                        > curve for the housing on a Tesla blower is an involute. Past that,
                        yeah,
                        > info gets sketchy. Seems like this'd be a good area to explore!
                        >
                        > There IS a commercial outfit that makes Tesla pumps. Apparently
                        the
                        > non-impinging nature of the turbine makes it... em... particularly
                        > well-suited to... well... pumping untreated sewage. From what
                        their
                        > literature says the thing makes an outstanding poopy pump. And
                        since the
                        > design is very flexible in terms of rotor thickness, spacing, stack
                        size,
                        > etc. you can tune your pump to the nature of... well... the poop in
                        > question. At the very least you might give them a call and see if
                        they
                        > could point you toward any information that'd help with the design
                        of a
                        > pump that pumps AIR!
                        >
                        > Tom
                        >

                        Sounds a little gooey!
                        I have some success since I last posted.
                        I will post the results later.
                        Thanks for all the interests in work hold downs.
                      • nattyone960
                        ... Just for a Taig. Here are my observations: 1)Use a Rotary Vane oil less pump pulling more than 20 of Mercury (I have one that is under power pulling 18.3
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 6, 2006
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                          --- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, benedict-list@... wrote:
                          >
                          > On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, nattyone960 wrote:
                          >
                          > > http://www.seasidesmallcraft.com/table.htm
                          > >
                          > > http://www.baycraftdesigns.com/Shopbot.html
                          > >
                          > > http://www.shopbottools.com/jamboree05vacuum.htm
                          >
                          > How big a system are you looking at building?
                          >
                          > Tom
                          >

                          Just for a Taig.
                          Here are my observations:

                          1)Use a Rotary Vane oil less pump pulling more than 20" of Mercury (I
                          have one that is under power pulling 18.3 Inches of Mercury I bought
                          it here:

                          http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                          ViewItem&item=7586957657&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_ReBay_Pr4_PcN_BID_IT

                          2)Make sure you have inline filters on the I/O (I don't right now but
                          I will later)


                          3)Cut the grooves in the jig .125 to .25 deep.

                          4) To get a better hold the surface should have some grab, (eg.
                          rubberized). I tried sticky back sand paper with less than perfectly
                          flat items and it worked better than the bare board surface.

                          Here are pictures of what I did so far:

                          http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?folder_id=1580858
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