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Re: [taigtools] Re: Collet Precision - CNC Mill

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  • benedict@hawaii.rr.com
    Jerry, I m curious. You said you use WW collets for holding tiny end mills, but that you don t reccommend it. Given all the choices available, what would be
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 3, 2004
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      Jerry, I'm curious. You said you use WW collets for holding tiny end
      mills, but that you don't reccommend it. Given all the choices available,
      what would be the best way to hold tiny end mills? Right now 1/32" is the
      smallest I use, but at some point I can see winding up using tinier
      tooling.

      Tom
    • benedict@hawaii.rr.com
      ... Ok. I misunderstood. This makes sense. ... This also makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. Tom
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 3, 2004
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        On Sun, 4 Jul 2004, n2562001 wrote:

        > I think I mentioned that I recommended using WW collets for small or
        > tiny end mills but no larger than 1/16". What I meant was a cutter
        > diamenter of no larger than 1/16". A 1/16" or 1/32" mill will generally
        > have a 3/16" shank and can be held with a 3/16" or no.48 WW collet. I
        > generally use 1/8" to 3/16" end mills held by WW collets but would not
        > recommend it under heavy loads.

        Ok. I misunderstood. This makes sense.

        > I have had them slip from time to time. For small mills I like either
        > ER or Mt (Morris-taper) collets for larger tooling. I know a lot of
        > people like end mill holders, but for small mills I am uncomfortable
        > with the end of the mill (1/4"- 3/8") extended as far from the spindle
        > nose as they are with most holders. End mills are far more stable and
        > give a cleaner more accurate cut when located as close to the spindle
        > nose as possible. My opinion of course.

        This also makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.

        Tom
      • n2562001
        Richard Having worked with very small end mills on a regular basis for the past ten years or so, maybe I can make a suggestion. In defense of Taig, It is my
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 3, 2004
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          Richard
          Having worked with very small end mills on a regular basis
          for the past ten years or so, maybe I can make a suggestion. In
          defense of Taig, It is my opinion that it is not practical to
          manufacture collets for $3.90 that will have the consistent accuracy
          needed for .015" endmills. I do not agree with their manufacturing
          philosophy but thats another story. No one else that I know of
          manufactures Taig collets
          I had a number of problems with small end mills down to .005"
          until I went to WW collets. You could switch over to a Taig WW
          spindle. However I would not suggest holding end mills larger than
          1/16" in WW collets even though I do it all of the time. From time
          to time I have had larger end mills slip under heavy load. If you
          make the change I would also suggest you fit to a steel draw bar,
          (.275"x40Tpi) If Taig is still suppling the brass one. The draw bar
          needs to be tight to properly hold the end mills. This will cause
          the brass threads to wear and they will eventually bind over the top
          of the collet thread. The first WW draw bar I machined was brass
          and caused untold grief when the whole assembly friction fitted its
          self together while closing the collet. Steel drawbars and WW
          collets are available from Sherline or most watch supply house`s.
          High qaulity used WW collets and draw bars are still available but
          getting harder to find.The Sherline draw bar will require minor
          machining and a bushing to fit properly. Larger end mills could and
          should be held in a end mill holder that threads to the spindle.

          Good Luck

          Jerry Kieffer



















          > Just received my new CNC mill last week, have it all setup for
          > backlash, etc and been "playing" around making some of my first
          > jewellery wax models. Love the machine but have one qualm.
          > Considering this is a precision machine, I was suprised at the
          > quality of the collets (the machining is extremely rough). I am
          > using fairly small ball nose mills with cutting diameters of 1/32"
          > and 1/16" and will probably use some as small as 1/64".
          > I have found that I am getting a runout of anywhere from 0.005" to
          > 0.007", if I use a 0.015" dia cutter -that's 50% of the diameter!
          > According to TAIG, they have never had any problems with this.
          > Are there any other suppliers of 1/8" and 3/16" collets to fit
          this
          > machine that are precision machined?
          > Any help would be appreciated.
          > Richard
        • Tony Jeffree
          ... Another alternative, which I believe is soon to be offered by Taig but which can be done on a DIY basis fairly easily, is to replace the Taig spindle with
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 4, 2004
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            At 01:36 04/07/2004, you wrote:

            >Richard
            > Having worked with very small end mills on a regular basis
            >for the past ten years or so, maybe I can make a suggestion. In
            >defense of Taig, It is my opinion that it is not practical to
            >manufacture collets for $3.90 that will have the consistent accuracy
            >needed for .015" endmills. I do not agree with their manufacturing
            >philosophy but thats another story. No one else that I know of
            >manufactures Taig collets
            > I had a number of problems with small end mills down to .005"
            >until I went to WW collets. You could switch over to a Taig WW
            >spindle. However I would not suggest holding end mills larger than
            >1/16" in WW collets even though I do it all of the time. From time
            >to time I have had larger end mills slip under heavy load. If you
            >make the change I would also suggest you fit to a steel draw bar,
            >(.275"x40Tpi) If Taig is still suppling the brass one. The draw bar
            >needs to be tight to properly hold the end mills. This will cause
            >the brass threads to wear and they will eventually bind over the top
            >of the collet thread. The first WW draw bar I machined was brass
            >and caused untold grief when the whole assembly friction fitted its
            >self together while closing the collet. Steel drawbars and WW
            >collets are available from Sherline or most watch supply house`s.
            >High qaulity used WW collets and draw bars are still available but
            >getting harder to find.The Sherline draw bar will require minor
            >machining and a bushing to fit properly. Larger end mills could and
            >should be held in a end mill holder that threads to the spindle.
            >
            >Good Luck
            >
            >Jerry Kieffer

            Another alternative, which I believe is soon to be offered by Taig but
            which can be done on a DIY basis fairly easily, is to replace the Taig
            spindle with one that takes ER16 collets. It is possible to buy ER16 collet
            chucks with parallel shanks long enough to do the job - the shank is
            generally 16mm diam, so it is necessary either to machine a couple of
            bushes to fit them to the 17mm ID bearings that Taig use, or to replace the
            bearings with 16mm ID/40mm OD bearings which are obtainable. I have the
            bits to do this lying on my bench right now, but haven't as yet obtained
            the necessary supply of round tuits to complete the job.

            The obvious advantages are that ER16 collets are reasonably priced,
            accurate, and are available from a wide variety of sources. They also have
            a wide gripping range, so a complete metric or imperial set should give
            full coverage (i.e., you don't have to have both the metric set and the
            imperial set).

            Regards,
            Tony
          • Eric Parsonage
            Tony I have been looking at converting to ER16 collets where did you find the collet chucks you mention ? Eric ... From: Tony Jeffree
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 4, 2004
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              Tony

              I have been looking at converting to ER16 collets where did you find the
              collet chucks you mention ?

              Eric

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Tony Jeffree" <tony@...>
              To: <taigtools@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 5:17 PM
              Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: Collet Precision - CNC Mill


              > At 01:36 04/07/2004, you wrote:
              >
              > >Richard
              > > Having worked with very small end mills on a regular basis
              > >for the past ten years or so, maybe I can make a suggestion. In
              > >defense of Taig, It is my opinion that it is not practical to
              > >manufacture collets for $3.90 that will have the consistent accuracy
              > >needed for .015" endmills. I do not agree with their manufacturing
              > >philosophy but thats another story. No one else that I know of
              > >manufactures Taig collets
              > > I had a number of problems with small end mills down to .005"
              > >until I went to WW collets. You could switch over to a Taig WW
              > >spindle. However I would not suggest holding end mills larger than
              > >1/16" in WW collets even though I do it all of the time. From time
              > >to time I have had larger end mills slip under heavy load. If you
              > >make the change I would also suggest you fit to a steel draw bar,
              > >(.275"x40Tpi) If Taig is still suppling the brass one. The draw bar
              > >needs to be tight to properly hold the end mills. This will cause
              > >the brass threads to wear and they will eventually bind over the top
              > >of the collet thread. The first WW draw bar I machined was brass
              > >and caused untold grief when the whole assembly friction fitted its
              > >self together while closing the collet. Steel drawbars and WW
              > >collets are available from Sherline or most watch supply house`s.
              > >High qaulity used WW collets and draw bars are still available but
              > >getting harder to find.The Sherline draw bar will require minor
              > >machining and a bushing to fit properly. Larger end mills could and
              > >should be held in a end mill holder that threads to the spindle.
              > >
              > >Good Luck
              > >
              > >Jerry Kieffer
              >
              > Another alternative, which I believe is soon to be offered by Taig but
              > which can be done on a DIY basis fairly easily, is to replace the Taig
              > spindle with one that takes ER16 collets. It is possible to buy ER16
              collet
              > chucks with parallel shanks long enough to do the job - the shank is
              > generally 16mm diam, so it is necessary either to machine a couple of
              > bushes to fit them to the 17mm ID bearings that Taig use, or to replace
              the
              > bearings with 16mm ID/40mm OD bearings which are obtainable. I have the
              > bits to do this lying on my bench right now, but haven't as yet obtained
              > the necessary supply of round tuits to complete the job.
              >
              > The obvious advantages are that ER16 collets are reasonably priced,
              > accurate, and are available from a wide variety of sources. They also have
              > a wide gripping range, so a complete metric or imperial set should give
              > full coverage (i.e., you don't have to have both the metric set and the
              > imperial set).
              >
              > Regards,
              > Tony
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to: taigtools@...
              >
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: taigtools-unsubscribe@...
              >
              >
              >
              > Let the chips fly!
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • n2562001
              - Tony I have the option of using ER collets on my mill but do not use them for a couple of reasons. first the physical size of the closer nut makes it very
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 4, 2004
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                -

                Tony
                I have the option of using ER collets on my mill but do not use
                them for a couple of reasons. first the physical size of the closer
                nut makes it very difficult to see and position the small short end
                mills. When you can`t see what you are doing these tiny expensive
                mills can easily be history before you get started.
                Second the cost of qauality ER collets with the consistent
                accuracy needed for tiny end mills are almost twice the cost of WW
                collets. The speed at witch the collets can changed when using small
                tooling for some operations may also be a consideration. For this
                the WW system is much faster. For larger tooling the ER system is
                far superior to the WW system.

                Jerry Kieffer

















                -- In taigtools@yahoogroups.com, Tony Jeffree <tony@j...> wrote:
                > At 01:36 04/07/2004, you wrote:
                >
                > >Richard
                > > Having worked with very small end mills on a regular basis
                > >for the past ten years or so, maybe I can make a suggestion. In
                > >defense of Taig, It is my opinion that it is not practical to
                > >manufacture collets for $3.90 that will have the consistent
                accuracy
                > >needed for .015" endmills. I do not agree with their manufacturing
                > >philosophy but thats another story. No one else that I know of
                > >manufactures Taig collets
                > > I had a number of problems with small end mills down to .005"
                > >until I went to WW collets. You could switch over to a Taig WW
                > >spindle. However I would not suggest holding end mills larger than
                > >1/16" in WW collets even though I do it all of the time. From time
                > >to time I have had larger end mills slip under heavy load. If you
                > >make the change I would also suggest you fit to a steel draw bar,
                > >(.275"x40Tpi) If Taig is still suppling the brass one. The draw bar
                > >needs to be tight to properly hold the end mills. This will cause
                > >the brass threads to wear and they will eventually bind over the
                top
                > >of the collet thread. The first WW draw bar I machined was brass
                > >and caused untold grief when the whole assembly friction fitted its
                > >self together while closing the collet. Steel drawbars and WW
                > >collets are available from Sherline or most watch supply house`s.
                > >High qaulity used WW collets and draw bars are still available but
                > >getting harder to find.The Sherline draw bar will require minor
                > >machining and a bushing to fit properly. Larger end mills could and
                > >should be held in a end mill holder that threads to the spindle.
                > >
                > >Good Luck
                > >
                > >Jerry Kieffer
                >
                > Another alternative, which I believe is soon to be offered by Taig
                but
                > which can be done on a DIY basis fairly easily, is to replace the
                Taig
                > spindle with one that takes ER16 collets. It is possible to buy
                ER16 collet
                > chucks with parallel shanks long enough to do the job - the shank
                is
                > generally 16mm diam, so it is necessary either to machine a couple
                of
                > bushes to fit them to the 17mm ID bearings that Taig use, or to
                replace the
                > bearings with 16mm ID/40mm OD bearings which are obtainable. I have
                the
                > bits to do this lying on my bench right now, but haven't as yet
                obtained
                > the necessary supply of round tuits to complete the job.
                >
                > The obvious advantages are that ER16 collets are reasonably priced,
                > accurate, and are available from a wide variety of sources. They
                also have
                > a wide gripping range, so a complete metric or imperial set should
                give
                > full coverage (i.e., you don't have to have both the metric set and
                the
                > imperial set).
                >
                > Regards,
                > Tony
              • Tony Jeffree
                Mine came from a company called WNT in the UK (actually a German company) but they are also available from J&L here and in the USA; similar chucks should be
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 4, 2004
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                  Mine came from a company called WNT in the UK (actually a German company)
                  but they are also available from J&L here and in the USA; similar chucks
                  should be available from the usual suspects.

                  Regards,
                  Tony

                  At 14:42 04/07/2004, you wrote:
                  >Tony
                  >
                  >I have been looking at converting to ER16 collets where did you find the
                  >collet chucks you mention ?
                  >
                  >Eric
                  >
                  >----- Original Message -----
                  >From: "Tony Jeffree" <tony@...>
                  >To: <taigtools@yahoogroups.com>
                  >Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 5:17 PM
                  >Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: Collet Precision - CNC Mill
                  >
                  >
                  > > At 01:36 04/07/2004, you wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >Richard
                  > > > Having worked with very small end mills on a regular basis
                  > > >for the past ten years or so, maybe I can make a suggestion. In
                  > > >defense of Taig, It is my opinion that it is not practical to
                  > > >manufacture collets for $3.90 that will have the consistent accuracy
                  > > >needed for .015" endmills. I do not agree with their manufacturing
                  > > >philosophy but thats another story. No one else that I know of
                  > > >manufactures Taig collets
                  > > > I had a number of problems with small end mills down to .005"
                  > > >until I went to WW collets. You could switch over to a Taig WW
                  > > >spindle. However I would not suggest holding end mills larger than
                  > > >1/16" in WW collets even though I do it all of the time. From time
                  > > >to time I have had larger end mills slip under heavy load. If you
                  > > >make the change I would also suggest you fit to a steel draw bar,
                  > > >(.275"x40Tpi) If Taig is still suppling the brass one. The draw bar
                  > > >needs to be tight to properly hold the end mills. This will cause
                  > > >the brass threads to wear and they will eventually bind over the top
                  > > >of the collet thread. The first WW draw bar I machined was brass
                  > > >and caused untold grief when the whole assembly friction fitted its
                  > > >self together while closing the collet. Steel drawbars and WW
                  > > >collets are available from Sherline or most watch supply house`s.
                  > > >High qaulity used WW collets and draw bars are still available but
                  > > >getting harder to find.The Sherline draw bar will require minor
                  > > >machining and a bushing to fit properly. Larger end mills could and
                  > > >should be held in a end mill holder that threads to the spindle.
                  > > >
                  > > >Good Luck
                  > > >
                  > > >Jerry Kieffer
                  > >
                  > > Another alternative, which I believe is soon to be offered by Taig but
                  > > which can be done on a DIY basis fairly easily, is to replace the Taig
                  > > spindle with one that takes ER16 collets. It is possible to buy ER16
                  >collet
                  > > chucks with parallel shanks long enough to do the job - the shank is
                  > > generally 16mm diam, so it is necessary either to machine a couple of
                  > > bushes to fit them to the 17mm ID bearings that Taig use, or to replace
                  >the
                  > > bearings with 16mm ID/40mm OD bearings which are obtainable. I have the
                  > > bits to do this lying on my bench right now, but haven't as yet obtained
                  > > the necessary supply of round tuits to complete the job.
                  > >
                  > > The obvious advantages are that ER16 collets are reasonably priced,
                  > > accurate, and are available from a wide variety of sources. They also have
                  > > a wide gripping range, so a complete metric or imperial set should give
                  > > full coverage (i.e., you don't have to have both the metric set and the
                  > > imperial set).
                  > >
                  > > Regards,
                  > > Tony
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > To Post a message, send it to: taigtools@...
                  > >
                  > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: taigtools-unsubscribe@...
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Let the chips fly!
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >To Post a message, send it to: taigtools@...
                  >
                  >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: taigtools-unsubscribe@...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Let the chips fly!
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  Regards,
                  Tony
                • Steve Blackmore
                  ... ??? The closer nut on my ER16 collet holder is only .8650 inch or 21.97mm diameter. The end of the collet is recessed less than 40thou from the outer face.
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 4, 2004
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                    On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 14:09:27 -0000, you wrote:


                    > I have the option of using ER collets on my mill but do not use
                    > them for a couple of reasons. first the physical size of the closer
                    > nut makes it very difficult to see and position the small short end
                    > mills. When you can`t see what you are doing these tiny expensive
                    > mills can easily be history before you get started.

                    ??? The closer nut on my ER16 collet holder is only .8650 inch or
                    21.97mm diameter. The end of the collet is recessed less than 40thou
                    from the outer face. Not in the slightest way could it be described as
                    "difficult"

                    > Second the cost of qauality ER collets with the consistent
                    > accuracy needed for tiny end mills are almost twice the cost of WW
                    > collets.

                    Change your ER collet supplier supplier.

                    --
                    Steve Blackmore
                  • n2562001
                    Steve When you have a .015 end mill that has a .025 long flute, it will work best if the cutting area of the mill is held as close to the collet nose as
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 4, 2004
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                      Steve
                      When you have a .015" end mill that has a .025" long flute, it
                      will work best if the cutting area of the mill is held as close to
                      the collet nose as possible. If you extend the mill out as far as
                      the 1/8" or less shank will allow (about one inch) you will start to
                      increase runout and lower the stability needed to prevent
                      breakage. I have had my best luck with small mills (.030" or so
                      and under)) when the tip is only about .100" to .150" from the nose
                      of the collet. A WW collet nose is only about .400" in dia. and
                      covers far more than I would like it to for a clear view of the
                      mill. This is only my experience. I sure don`t have a problem with
                      what ever works for anyone else.
                      In regard to collet pricing. Qaulity for qaulity I have
                      always had to pay almost twice as much for ER collets as WW collets.
                      Of course I can buy cheap collets but I found the higher priced
                      Qaulity collets to be a far better value for the dollar. They do
                      the job correctly the first time and every time. I should back up
                      and say I have bought a fair amount of cheap crap from China.
                      I keep it around for people who like to borrow things. They always
                      bring it back and never ask to borrow it again.

                      Jerry Kieffer













                      > On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 14:09:27 -0000, you wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > > I have the option of using ER collets on my mill but do not
                      use
                      > > them for a couple of reasons. first the physical size of the
                      closer
                      > > nut makes it very difficult to see and position the small short
                      end
                      > > mills. When you can`t see what you are doing these tiny
                      expensive
                      > > mills can easily be history before you get started.
                      >
                      > ??? The closer nut on my ER16 collet holder is only .8650 inch or
                      > 21.97mm diameter. The end of the collet is recessed less than
                      40thou
                      > from the outer face. Not in the slightest way could it be
                      described as
                      > "difficult"
                      >
                      > > Second the cost of qauality ER collets with the consistent
                      > > accuracy needed for tiny end mills are almost twice the cost of
                      WW
                      > > collets.
                      >
                      > Change your ER collet supplier supplier.
                      >
                      > --
                      > Steve Blackmore
                    • n2562001
                      Tom I think I mentioned that I recommended using WW collets for small or tiny end mills but no larger than 1/16 . What I meant was a cutter diamenter of no
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 4, 2004
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                        Tom
                        I think I mentioned that I recommended using WW collets for
                        small or tiny end mills but no larger than 1/16". What I meant was
                        a cutter diamenter of no larger than 1/16". A 1/16" or 1/32" mill
                        will generally have a 3/16" shank and can be held with a 3/16" or
                        no.48 WW collet. I generally use 1/8" to 3/16" end mills held by WW
                        collets but would not recommend it under heavy loads. I have had
                        them slip from time to time. For small mills I like either ER or Mt
                        (Morris-taper) collets for larger tooling. I know a lot of people
                        like end mill holders, but for small mills I am uncomfortable with
                        the end of the mill (1/4"- 3/8") extended as far from the spindle
                        nose as they are with most holders. End mills are far more stable
                        and give a cleaner more accurate cut when located as close to the
                        spindle nose as possible. My opinion of course.

                        Jerry Kieffer





















                        >
                        > Jerry, I'm curious. You said you use WW collets for holding tiny
                        end
                        > mills, but that you don't reccommend it. Given all the choices
                        available,
                        > what would be the best way to hold tiny end mills? Right now
                        1/32" is the
                        > smallest I use, but at some point I can see winding up using
                        tinier
                        > tooling.
                        >
                        > Tom
                      • jwalters
                        For anyone interested in using the best ER style collets and chucks made, check out the Rego-Fix.com web site. I understand this is the Swiss company that
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jul 4, 2004
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                          For anyone interested in using the best ER style collets and chucks made, check out the
                          Rego-Fix.com web site. I understand this is the Swiss company that developed the ER
                          style collet. They sell collets as small as ER8 that have an open size of 1mm that will
                          clamp down to smaller than anyone should ever need. An option for a high precision spindle
                          is to adapt an ER collet to Taig, check out their standard straight shank collet chucks
                          and carefully adapt it to fit the Taig spindle bearings. The quality of the collet nut greatly
                          influences the precision of any collet. Rego-Fix make the best collets, collet chucks and
                          collet nuts I have ever used. Check out their web site, the information is there, keep clicking
                          on page extensions until you find the ER collet section. I hope this helps.
                          John Walters
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: benedict@...
                          To: taigtools@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:11 PM
                          Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: Collet Precision - CNC Mill



                          Jerry, I'm curious. You said you use WW collets for holding tiny end
                          mills, but that you don't reccommend it. Given all the choices available,
                          what would be the best way to hold tiny end mills? Right now 1/32" is the
                          smallest I use, but at some point I can see winding up using tinier
                          tooling.

                          Tom


                          To Post a message, send it to: taigtools@...

                          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: taigtools-unsubscribe@...



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